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The Balance Issue


Ritsugamesh

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I haven't yet seen anyone who was a Balance Shadow in 1.7 who likes the 2.0 changes. Both in forums and chatting to friends and guildies.

 

I haven't yet seen anyone who was Kinetic or Infiltration in 1.7 say 'wow, now that it's been simplified, it looks great, I think I'll change to Balance'. Either on the forums, or chatting to other Shadows on server.

 

It would have been nice if they'd prioritised catering to the people who loved Balance in 1.7 because of it's unique, 'mixed' playstyle, rather than prioritising 'simplifying' it on behalf of people who aren't interested anyway.

 

I played a Balance Shadow in ranked WZs in 1.7. I've gone tank in 2.0.

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I haven't yet seen anyone who was a Balance Shadow in 1.7 who likes the 2.0 changes. Both in forums and chatting to friends and guildies.

 

I haven't yet seen anyone who was Kinetic or Infiltration in 1.7 say 'wow, now that it's been simplified, it looks great, I think I'll change to Balance'. Either on the forums, or chatting to other Shadows on server.

 

It would have been nice if they'd prioritised catering to the people who loved Balance in 1.7 because of it's unique, 'mixed' playstyle, rather than prioritising 'simplifying' it on behalf of people who aren't interested anyway.

 

I played a Balance Shadow in ranked WZs in 1.7. I've gone tank in 2.0.

 

Considering how bats*** crazy Tank spec has always been and how brilliant Inf actually is these days, it's not a surprise nobody wants to touch Balance with a long stick anymore! :rolleyes:

 

Bioware, where art thou?

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Totally agreed and well put. Semi-bump as I want this to stay on front page long enough to warrant a worthwhile Dev post and ultimately give us the re-work we deserve.

 

I wouldn't go as far as saying "we deserve" a re work, because in all reality it is their game. I'll play balance shadow no matter what they do to it because it's just the spec I like best.

 

I'm just hoping they take player consideration into count here.

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Was making an experiment the other day (inspired from other threads on this forum). I was playing a balance shadow with single saber ! I was surprised I did very decent. I lost quite a bit of damage on double strike (though I like the single saber animation for double strike better, so I was having fun with it), and lost spinning strike (but maybe because of crush spirit I didn't miss it).

 

Just making a point :)

Edited by sainik
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Was making an experiment the other day (inspired from other threads on this forum). I was playing a balance shadow with single saber ! I was surprised I did very decent. I lost quite a bit of damage on double strike (though I like the single saber animation for double strike better, so I was having fun with it), and lost spinning strike (but maybe because of crush spirit I didn't miss it).

 

Just making a point :)

 

You can actually use spinning strike with a single-hilt lightsaber :p ... It doesn't have an animation, but it applies the damage. You can't use Force Breach though :( otherwise, I'd be playing with a single-hilt as well. Just to prove a point; Balance Shadows = Melee Sages.

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Yeah, my point about spinning strike and crush spirit was needless in that post. What I was trying to point out in my post was that I liked the single saber animations a lot better on my balance shadow (minus spinning strike). Definitely not viable, etc.

 

Do you guys think the buffs to force technique (inc rippling force) were to bring it in line with shadow technique? Right now they do almost the same damage, shadow technique triggers 3 times less often, but with clairvoyant strike (atleast in theory) it will trigger only only 1.5 times less often. Considering that shadow technique is internal damage, the dps of both turns out to be near equal.

 

This ensures that both balance and infil shadows get the same use out of battle readiness. Not sure if I messed up the numbers somewhere, but just trying to understand why force technique was buffed so much.

Edited by sainik
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Disclaimer: Sorry for the mocking and sarcastic tone of this post, but I'm really upset with the changes to the Balance spec and Bioware's false justification for it.

 

Well lots of people were complaining about the Balance Spec and how hard it was. Just look at all these threads;

Super Necromancing Commence!

 

Balance = Boring: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=380704 (oh no, wait, does the title say infiltration? whups. Well, might be worth looking at the replies in that thread. I'm sure you'll find lots of people saying that Balance was too complex and needed to be nerfed)

 

Balance = Bad for pvp: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=505404 (Yes, the OP is atrocious and he calls the spec "focus" but check the replies. Obviously, people were very upset with how complex balance was. Depth is bad!)

 

Balance = Bad force regen!! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=499759 (Yep, though most of the people replying in the thread says otherwise. Most seem to agree that our force regen was, in fact, fine. And as you can see, lots of people complain about how complex it is. Even the OP wanted a passive random force regen over Sharpened Mind. It's right there in the suggestons! .. oh, it isn't?? Sorry, my mistake)

 

Balance = Worse than Infiltration! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=515739 (Short thread but I found this passage interesting: "I love infiltration....that was till I finally budged and gave in to learn balance, now I won't go back no matter how flashy and cool it looks, the rotation feels a lot smoother too." What did Bioware say about the Shadow Rotation? Right, it's CLUNKY! Derp, that poster must be a complete idiot)

 

Force in Balance = Annoying! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=523579 (this is actually a genuine balance complaint. I'm linking it for the sense of consistency. I do not agree with the poster in the thread, however, seeing as I mainly PvP... and Force in Balance having a targeting reticle is highly useful for pvp.)

 

Balance or Infiltration: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=521128 (Check the replies. No one complaining about how complex Balance is, but... interesting reply; "none of the specs are hard mind you but infil is much harder to play well than balance." Someone who thinks Infiltration is harder than Balance!)

 

Balance Shadows are too complex said no one ever: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=511888 (just a random thread with some luv for the old Balance thread)

 

Opinions about Balance: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=530021 (too complex? Said who?)

 

People unable to learn: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=140266 (oh wait, the OP seemed to get it rather fast. THANK GOD you made the spec easier Bioware!!)

 

Shadows are BORING: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=576628 (Wait.. no, just read the thread.)

 

"Do you like or not the Balance spec ?" http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=580357 (well, bioware, what does your customers say? Too complex, right? That's what they are saying?)

 

Conclusion:

 

I've glanced over 20-30 pages and not once did I see anyone complain that Balance was too hard. In fact, if there was any spec that was considered complex it was Infiltration, as many people didn't understand how to play the spec properly. To them, you wrote an eloquent post explaining that people simply had to learn how to play.

 

So why, Bioware? What feedback spurred you to change Balance? The only common complaint related to the Balance spec was the Twin Discipline debate; whether project was to be used in our rotation or not. I didn't find a single complaint about Balance being too hard to play. But I did find a lot of posts expressing their joy over how fun the spec was. So why the hell did you ruin it?

 

Why am I, a customer, going over your feedback? Don't you have paid people to do that sort of thing? The reason I did it was to see whether people had actively been complaining about Balance or not... and they haven't! So why on earth did you ruin the spec?! It's frustrating as hell! I'm going to hold my breath until 2.1... I'd prefer to have the Balance tree more or less fully restored (with a talent for Shadow Strike instead of Crush spirit. This way you can keep Infiltration and Kinetic Combat as they are. Technique Mastery might need to be changed). I would settle for a Shadow Strike proc though... I've tried Lethality Operative and to a lesser extent Pyrotech Merc, and I just can't find the joy in the game anymore. Everything is so dumbed down. Of the remaining complex trees, there's not a one that really appeals to me. I want my kiting mid-range fighter back.

Edited by Majspuffen
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I support changing Balance Shadows back to pre 1.7 standards. However, I would also be fine with changes to the changes to make 2.0 better.

 

I also think I would be less disappointed with the changes to Balance if Shadows got something else instead of 'Phase Walk'.

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I felt rather cuckoo digging up all that :p and I'm sure there's a lot more to find if one were to search. If someone does manage to find a thread of just one person complaining about the complexity of the Balance spec, then please share. ^^

 

Haven't been able to play SWTOR at all this week. It's not just the Balance Spec, but the game in general is getting too "dumbified" for my tastes. I have an Operative and I used to play mainly healer with her before 2.0... but, they dumbed down that too (not that operative healing was any hard since 1.2). I just want to see more interesting classes/specs with more synergy between abilities. Maybe SWTOR is not the game for me. Which sucks, I rather love the franchise. :'(

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Disclaimer: Sorry for the mocking and sarcastic tone of this post, but I'm really upset with the changes to the Balance spec and Bioware's false justification for it.

 

Well lots of people were complaining about the Balance Spec and how hard it was. Just look at all these threads;

Super Necromancing Commence!

 

....examples cut for space....all very good examples...

 

Conclusion:

 

I've glanced over 20-30 pages and not once did I see anyone complain that Balance was too hard. In fact, if there was any spec that was considered complex it was Infiltration, as many people didn't understand how to play the spec properly. To them, you wrote an eloquent post explaining that people simply had to learn how to play.

 

So why, Bioware? What feedback spurred you to change Balance? The only common complaint related to the Balance spec was the Twin Discipline debate; whether project was to be used in our rotation or not. I didn't find a single complaint about Balance being too hard to play. But I did find a lot of posts expressing their joy over how fun the spec was. So why the hell did you ruin it?

 

Why am I, a customer, going over your feedback? Don't you have paid people to do that sort of thing? The reason I .

 

Great comments Mas. Only thing ill point out (and not defending it, only pointing out that it was voiced), is that they GAVE a reason for doing it. Just not one everybody likes.

 

The Class Dev specifically stated that the reason they simplified the spec was twofold : One, that they had never planned on shadow strike being so central to the specs rotation, and they realized that the talent was inappropriately powerful for a tier one talent, and two: that they wanted all the classes to conform to a more "generalized" balance of skill rotations per spec. IE they wanted it to be as easy as the others.

 

Again, not my words...theirs. So feel free to like it or not, I'm not going to defend it. I liked the old design too. the new one isn't broke by far..but the old one was simply more interesting to play.

Edited by Elyxin
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The Class Dev specifically stated that the reason they simplified the spec was twofold : One, that they had never planned on shadow strike being so central to the specs rotation, and they realized that the talent was inappropriately powerful for a tier one talent/.../

 

I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. I think that that was exactly what the original dev team wanted (I'm assuming they had more people working on the classes prior to the lay-offs...)

 

It makes more sense when you think about it. We gain Shadow Strike at level 10 and the ability is useless unless we place one point into Infiltration Tactics. This of course meant that Infiltration Tactics became mandatory for both DPS trees, but I don't really see the harm in that*. If they wanted to fix this, they should have made the Infiltration Tactics proc free, because the concept of Shadow Strike is to use it alongside a proc.

 

 

*Besides, I considered Infiltration Tactics to be as Mandatory to my spec as Technique Mastery was. Of course, they changed that talent as well so now all low-hanging fruit talents are pretty uninspiring to us. Much more so than for any other class (with my Lethality Operative, there are so many good low-hanging fruits that it makes me wish I had more talent points). Not to mention that we actually have to waste points in order to get Shadowy Veil, which is a pretty mandatory talent for pvp.

 

No, there is no justification for what Bioware did to the Shadow Class in 2.0. :/

Edited by Majspuffen
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I'll keep being annoying.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-july-13th-2012

 

Quote:

I say that, but I've seen players dash my expectations and turn Deception into a spectacular teammate. Unfortunately, I've seen many more players try to facetank and fail. Assassins have a great team support role - Darkness; they also have a great well-rounded, high utility role - Madness. We left Deception to take the opportunity to do something fun and very different, but that comes with the risk of missing player expectation.

 

Madness = Balance.

 

High utility role. I'd agree, and that statement would be even more true if instant force lift had been bound to our Force Technique (i.e eliminating the tank/balance hybrid that had even more utility).

 

Instant force lift and Sever Force, in addition to saps, knockback and two hard stuns, everything on relatively short CDs, and we have an awesome utility-bot for the team (whose only downside is low defense. Balanced?). Instant force lift was arguably our strongest asset, however, and they nerfed that... because they deemed it an escape tool. What happened to Peckenpaugh? Did he truly write that first blog?

 

Phase Walk does not justify losing Instant Force Lift. If I had to choose, I would keep Instant Force Lift over Phase Walk any day. Phase Walk is also a nice asset for utility, but mostly just for interrupting ninja cappers.

 

[Edit] Also, we aren't exactly well-rounded anymore. In 1.7 we had decent single-target damage for PvP, in addition to some AoE pressure. In 2.0 our AoE pressure went up but our single target damage is much lower. Bioware :( ...

Edited by Majspuffen
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I've played shadow since the game was released, played infiltration spec at first, but at lvl 50 and decided to try balance, and I sticked to it since then. 2.0 changes, like loosing Shadow Strike or our unique way of restoring force, hurst me as well, but I have some ideas of my own:

The first thing i'd suggest is to rework Shadow Strike, due to its force cost only KC and Infiltration has any use of it thanks to their talents. I think of reducing its base force cost from 50 to 15 or 20, and put it on 9 or 12 seconds cooldown. Then remove force cost reduction on Infiltration Tactics and Shadow Wrap talents, and make Infiltration Impose Weakness talent to finish active CD on SS. That way all specs get to use SS, while Infiltration and KC get their significant buff to the ability.

Next thing is Lambaste. While I like the idea of splashing our Force Technique on multiple targets, why it has to be on an ability that has almost no use? My first idea is making Shadow Strike trigger Force Technique off its normal limit on the target and up to 4 additional enemies in some area. Second idea is to make Force Technique spash on 4 additional enemies every time it triggers. Both effects wouldn't affect incapacitated enemies.

 

As for now i gave up full balance build, and plaing a 0/18/28 hibrid. giving up Sever Force and increased dmg on execute phases, at least I get to play the class loved pre 2.0 and I feel I'm doing more dps than full build.

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I've played shadow since the game was released, played infiltration spec at first, but at lvl 50 and decided to try balance, and I sticked to it since then. 2.0 changes, like loosing Shadow Strike or our unique way of restoring force, hurst me as well, but I have some ideas of my own:

The first thing i'd suggest is to rework Shadow Strike, due to its force cost only KC and Infiltration has any use of it thanks to their talents. I think of reducing its base force cost from 50 to 15 or 20, and put it on 9 or 12 seconds cooldown. Then remove force cost reduction on Infiltration Tactics and Shadow Wrap talents, and make Infiltration Impose Weakness talent to finish active CD on SS. That way all specs get to use SS, while Infiltration and KC get their significant buff to the ability.

Next thing is Lambaste. While I like the idea of splashing our Force Technique on multiple targets, why it has to be on an ability that has almost no use? My first idea is making Shadow Strike trigger Force Technique off its normal limit on the target and up to 4 additional enemies in some area. Second idea is to make Force Technique spash on 4 additional enemies every time it triggers. Both effects wouldn't affect incapacitated enemies.

 

As for now i gave up full balance build, and plaing a 0/18/28 hibrid. giving up Sever Force and increased dmg on execute phases, at least I get to play the class loved pre 2.0 and I feel I'm doing more dps than full build.

 

Just gonna point out, PvE wise, if you check TORparse and other websites with parsers, a full balance build does more dps then infil. and hybrid spec.

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http://i.imgur.com/MCdWfFv.jpg?1

 

I did this in madness the other day (Balance)

Not too shabby, but I do feel the spec is still lacking :(

 

It's just numbers. The gameplay remains as boring and uninspiring as ever.

 

I've still one more month of subscription to the game, but I haven't played for nearly two weeks now. Retrying World of Warcraft and other MMORPG. I've learned one thing about myself; I don't like rotations when it comes to DPS.

 

Prior to 2.0 Balance didn't have a rotation. Giving it one is a crime. The audience Balance appealed to played the spec because it followed a priority order and rewarded active awareness. The gameplay was just fun. But meh, my hopes are pretty much gone. The only thing I'll see Bioware do is to buff Balance as it currently is. I suspect they might even buff it to the extent that it becomes overpowered, but the gameplay won't change and it will still be boring to play. Because they are too *********** proud to revert the idiotic changes they did. And they don't care about the minority that loved the spec for what it was, because if everyone who played Balance as main quit the game, it wouldn't really make a big difference in their monthly income, I'm sure.

 

So why cater to the little people? **** Bioware. **** EA. **** Austin Peckenpaugh. **** this game. *ragequits*

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Don't give up. We need Bioware to make a question of the day... "For all you Jedi Shadow out there, what skill tree is your favorite to play now in 2.0?" Everyone needs to say that they used to love balance but no longer have a favorite ha
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Not a single change to Balance in 2.1. But that's fair, it was a quality of life patch. Pegging our hopes on 2.2?

 

Personally I might use my free rename token on my Shadow and recreate the character as some other class. I don't want to throw my Shadow away. I got Synthweaving maxxed.

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Not a single change to Balance in 2.1. But that's fair, it was a quality of life patch. Pegging our hopes on 2.2?

 

Personally I might use my free rename token on my Shadow and recreate the character as some other class. I don't want to throw my Shadow away. I got Synthweaving maxxed.

 

I encourage you to try other classes. I play just about all of them. and If you've played MMO's for any length of time, you know that today's broke spec is tomorrows OP spec. things change. try out a few others, and then your shadow will still be there if things change (they probably will)

 

Having said that, I can support your frustration with the change to the class. SS was such a pivotal skill to the build that if you really enjoyed the rotation, it did change dramatically.

 

Now I can't know for sure if the original dev team wanted it that way or not...or perhaps they didn't even KNOW it would cause such an impact...we can dream up ideas about what we don't know all day long. But as they stated currently (and we have actual quotes on this), they don't want SS to be such a core part of the balance rotation, and the talent in itself was way too powerful for a tier one talent (which I agree with).

 

Perhaps the solution is to add another element to the balance rotation that is based on the already used skills. i think what we really need, regardless of new skills or new procs, is a re-balancing of damage that isn't as dependent on buffs and debuffs from other part members. in reading the interview with the class dev, he stated outright that the balance spec has the MOST dependency on other class buffs/debuffs then any other AC...which to me is bad. it's one thing to give us a proc or two that requires personal monitoring and timing...but to put out DPS potential into buffs that may or may not be there? bad design IMO.

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Perhaps the solution is to add another element to the balance rotation that is based on the already used skills. i think what we really need, regardless of new skills or new procs, is a re-balancing of damage that isn't as dependent on buffs and debuffs from other part members. in reading the interview with the class dev, he stated outright that the balance spec has the MOST dependency on other class buffs/debuffs then any other AC...which to me is bad. it's one thing to give us a proc or two that requires personal monitoring and timing...but to put out DPS potential into buffs that may or may not be there? bad design IMO.

 

this!

 

the only connection sever Force has with the Balance Shadow Skill tree is that it's a dot.

give it to any other Dot spec and they won't ever think it's a 36 point talent especially one a belonging to a "melee class"

 

so how about adding a 2,5%-10% chance to each tick of sever Force to add a "target is below 30% HP Debuff" with 5sec Duration to the Target? (perhaps with 15sec internal CD) that would be something unique and worthy of a 36 point talent.

that would replace some Double strikes with Spinning Strikes (I'd love to get rid of this DS-Spam) without adding too much complexity, like looking for the infiltration tactics buff to use SS (since that is supposedly so hard to track).

Spinning Strike light's up? -> use it!

even better then the buff to our own DPS (nerf DS if you like our DPS exactly where they are) now we would be the ones having the :eek: Buff to other peoples DPS (or at least all the classes with some sort of "finish move/talent"). (if tracking your own debuffs was easier it might even make sense to stack Balance shadows :p of course we can use FIB to time things...:jawa_eek:)

 

now add a "gray force breach DOT" (that doesn't affect CC/stealth) to FIB to give us some comfortable target switching against weak's not worth the GCD to apply force breach and still benefiting from the "Force Strike" talent to get instant Mind crush as well as dot protection in PVP (the "gray force breach DOT"s acting as decoys) and I'm happy.

 

However, as long wishes are cheap, What about a Accuracy / Alacrity / Willpower or dot-Critical-Chance increasing Talent? wouldn't (at least one of) those be nice? ;)

or something like cull/wounding shots attached to Spinning Strike. That would be "the dot :p above the i" (literally translated from German) you'd probably call it "the icing on the Cake"

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I encourage you to try other classes. I play just about all of them. and If you've played MMO's for any length of time, you know that today's broke spec is tomorrows OP spec. things change. try out a few others, and then your shadow will still be there if things change (they probably will)

 

Oh, I'm very well aware of how MMORPGs operates, and I never let the overpowered/underpowered argument decide what I want to play. When I picked up the Balance spec for the first time, it was partly because people said it sucked and that Sages were better. I didn't see it, and I feel that I proved most people wrong. Balance Shadows were awesome, yet never considered overpowered.

 

In World of Warcraft I played a Warrior. I endured tons of nerfs in the early Cataclysm expansion. Granted, warriors were overpowered at first and they had to nerf the class. In case you never played WoW, I'll try to explain the severity of the nerfs;

Arms Warriors had three gap closers. We lost one of them; which had been part of our class for years.

Our 100% armor penetration debuff got reduced to 50%.

Our ability "spell reflect" which allowed us to reflect 1 spell back at our oppoents got its cooldown increased from 10s to 25s (had been 12s in previous expansions).

We lost the ability to overlap our offensive cooldowns. For instance, there was one cooldown that reduced the cost of all our attacks by 100% for a limited amount of time, and we could use that cooldown with another cooldown that increased our crit chance.

 

Some massive nerfs, yet I never stopped playing the class. Why? Because it was still fun to play. It sucked that we lost a gap closer, but I could cope with it, because the fundamental gameplay of the class was fun. They didn't change that. They can tweak and change cooldowns as much as they want, I won't mind, so long as the gameplay is fluid and fun.

 

Which is kind of funny, in hindsight. In the patch after the one that brought all these heavy nerfs, we got a minor nerf that increased the GCD of one of our attacks by 0.5s and that nerf upset me more than any other, simply because that one DID interfere with the flow of the class... and it was completely unnecessary, too.

 

 

So my point is; I can live with nerfs and being underpowered. But I'm not going to pay a company that fundamentally changes my class to make it worse and less fun at the same time. That's where I draw my line. I did try Operative (55) and I did try a bit of mercenary (53), but none of them have the same reactive gameplay that Balance Shadows had.

 

Perhaps there is a perfect class for me out there somewhere, but what's to stop bioware from ruining the fun of that class as well? I've returned to World of Warcraft to give my Arms Warrior another shot. At first the changes were overwhelming, but as I got back into the game, the class pretty much feels the same as it was, even though it has gone through some severe changes. Bioware could learn a thing or two from Blizzard, if they weren't so bloody occupied with that *********** cartel market.

Edited by Majspuffen
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Currently been playing my gunslinger at 55 in Dirty Fighting and enjoying how a real DoT spec feels. Enjoying the benefits of 30m aoe cc, aoe dot application with cleanse protection and above rate limit finishers for some mad Wounding Shots/Quickdraw burst. This class has a brilliant skillset and doesn't feel crippled by BW in any way, which only adds to the confusion surrounding the Balance Shadow debacle.

 

Stealth is a powerful tool, but I honestly believe a Scoundrel could cap just as easily as Balance once did - stealth cc, destealth to cap, if/when they cc break flash grenade 10m GG. Sure force lift was 30m but capping can easily (generally) be done in a 10m range on Alderaan or Hypergate. Keep in mind that Scoundrel still have a very engaging DoT spec that shares some benefits with it's Slinger variant, but keeps itself unique with Upper Hand as a fun and empowering mechanic for the player to utilize as they see best.

 

Balance feels like some Sesame Street children's introduction to DoT specs in comparison to the actually decent implementation of DoT specs in Smugglers.

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