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The Balance Issue


Ritsugamesh

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The math suggests it's equal, and theoretically it is providing force technique procced without fail every 1.5 seconds (probably the metrics Bioware used to quantify the change). Unfortunately real world parsing and application shows that the actual force regen is far below what we had before with Sharpened Mind (you can see the napkin math in my OP).

 

The Project discussion is interesting, but I honestly barely used Project even with the Twin Disciplines proc in the old tree. I'd rather not settle for a sub-par form of burst that empties our force bars. I actually like having Celerity for PvE, especially in HM content where 5 seconds shaves off your force speed means the difference between applying dps a gcd earlier then before. Even so, I'll have some tests with Project to see the results.

 

I think another alarm that is raised for me through all this is that people have now got Balance locked down into a pure rotation. I always felt like Balance played more on a priority list style of play, where keeping on top of everything and logically altering our actions to make sure things ran optimally was the key to succeeding. Unfortunately now the only aspect lift in that style is the Mind Crush proc. It's a personal opinion of course, Balance doesn't necessarily HAVE to be played in such a fashion, but now we're unable to even choose haha.

 

I'm still working off of a priority order when I do my rotation, that hasn't changed. I think of rippling force as a proc, once it procs I can throw in project and not worry about force being affected. I don't use project everytime it is up, but since I've started to add it into my rotation, it was the difference of 2100 parses to 2200 parses.

 

Edit: Usually when it comes to my raid group and fights that involve a lot of running back and forth, they usually have me stay put on the boss. There's not many bosses where a 5 second less on CD for force run helps aside from maybe Kephess in EC which... well he's easy as hell now even in NM since its lvl 50. And in those situations that you are running, project is a clutch move. You don't have many ranged abilities, so project is a good way to maintain dps in a ranged situation.

Edited by Levity
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I'm still working off of a priority order when I do my rotation, that hasn't changed. I think of rippling force as a proc, once it procs I can throw in project and not worry about force being affected. I don't use project everytime it is up, but since I've started to add it into my rotation, it was the difference of 2100 parses to 2200 parses.

 

Edit: Usually when it comes to my raid group and fights that involve a lot of running back and forth, they usually have me stay put on the boss. There's not many bosses where a 5 second less on CD for force run helps aside from maybe Kephess in EC which... well he's easy as hell now even in NM since its lvl 50. And in those situations that you are running, project is a clutch move. You don't have many ranged abilities, so project is a good way to maintain dps in a ranged situation.

 

You are aware Rippling Force is merely a 2 force refund? I hardly think it warrants pushing a 36 force move out but that's fair enough. I am still going to test these factors, but I cannot find a reason to use Project without any meaningful buff in our spec for it. Inf has +50% crit damage, Kinetic has Guaranteed crit, lower force regen and cooldown finish. We just have a low chance proc of upheaval, shared with both other specs.

 

I've been off-tanking in dps gear for Story Modes and the odd PVP match and can easily say it's a far more fun spec to play even as a dps-esque spec over Balance right now. You definitely get a force/melee hybrid feel with the TK Throw, Project, Slow Time, Pull etc along with Shadow Strike, all that good stuff. The numbers are surprisingly high aswell considering everything. This isn't to say I think we should actually be DPSing in Kinetic, but on a playstyle level alone it is miles ahead of Balance at this point in time.

 

My Raid Group do a similar thing for some HM fights, especially the Thrasher in S&V as it's such a pain to get up there as melee without jump. It works, but it's far from optimal. Having to find shortcuts and sub-optimal solutions to accommodate a spec is not a brilliant feeling. I've stated that DPS numbers are probably almost on par with pre 2.0 and it really isn't the main aim of this thread, rather I am trying to bring to light the lack of intriguing playstyle that the spec currently has and to showcase the lackluster reception that the changes have had with the community. Hopefully the Devs will take note of this soon and we can get an official response on the matter, as I can't see many people singing Balance 2.0's praises right now.

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You are aware Rippling Force is merely a 2 force refund? I hardly think it warrants pushing a 36 force move out but that's fair enough. I am still going to test these factors, but I cannot find a reason to use Project without any meaningful buff in our spec for it. Inf has +50% crit damage, Kinetic has Guaranteed crit, lower force regen and cooldown finish. We just have a low chance proc of upheaval, shared with both other specs.

 

I've been off-tanking in dps gear for Story Modes and the odd PVP match and can easily say it's a far more fun spec to play even as a dps-esque spec over Balance right now. You definitely get a force/melee hybrid feel with the TK Throw, Project, Slow Time, Pull etc along with Shadow Strike, all that good stuff. The numbers are surprisingly high aswell considering everything. This isn't to say I think we should actually be DPSing in Kinetic, but on a playstyle level alone it is miles ahead of Balance at this point in time.

 

My Raid Group do a similar thing for some HM fights, especially the Thrasher in S&V as it's such a pain to get up there as melee without jump. It works, but it's far from optimal. Having to find shortcuts and sub-optimal solutions to accommodate a spec is not a brilliant feeling. I've stated that DPS numbers are probably almost on par with pre 2.0 and it really isn't the main aim of this thread, rather I am trying to bring to light the lack of intriguing playstyle that the spec currently has and to showcase the lackluster reception that the changes have had with the community. Hopefully the Devs will take note of this soon and we can get an official response on the matter, as I can't see many people singing Balance 2.0's praises right now.

 

As I said I never see issues with my force atm to point to absolutely not using it. It is a situational skill. I will wait for my rippling force, force synergy ( that's a given for better crit chance) and my power proc from my relic, ( I started to use that PVP relic that procs 410 power every 20 seconds) and it hits like a truck. Project was a skill that has always been one for debate within the spec, and people are saying how the spec seems dry and boring. For me, timing my proc relic, my force synergy, and my rippling force to throw a rock(maybe two) for 5-6k dmg ~ each? Yeah I like that idea. It brings back a little bit of that unpredictable flare that it was like in 1.7.

 

However, DPS wise we are lacking from what I've seen on the parse logs from torparse, swtormonitor, and mox. Classes are easily hitting 2800-3000 dps on some bosses (Snipers, PT, VG, Sage

) while I saw maybe one shadow in the top 50 for dps in HM SNV and he was at 2200 something. If I get to that level and I push and push and push to get those better numbers like I did in 1.6 and 1.7 and it doesn't happen because they just limited the class too much, then I will have an issue. They need to scrap the "better dmg under 30%" idea, that's a dumb excuse to make a class do **** dmg for 70% of the fight lol.

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They need to scrap the "better dmg under 30%" idea, that's a dumb excuse to make a class do **** dmg for 70% of the fight lol.

 

Especially for a class with an execute. I never thought those skill points made sense for lethality snipers either, but they fixed that in 2.0 by enabling their execute on a proc.

 

I will be willing to live with such lazy additions to skill trees if they bring back the flow and the feel of the class as a melee - ranged, force - saber hybrid.

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Without writing a wall of text, here's a simple recap:

 

Sharpened Mind needs to be restored. Remove Rippling Force.

 

The internal CD on Mind Crush needs to be removed.

 

We need a talent that allows for Shadow Strike in our rotation.

 

 

Not required, but preferred:

 

Give us a talent that makes Telekinetic Wave and/or Project useful to this spec.

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Without writing a wall of text, here's a simple recap:

 

Sharpened Mind needs to be restored. Remove Rippling Force.

 

The internal CD on Mind Crush needs to be removed.

 

We need a talent that allows for Shadow Strike in our rotation.

 

 

Not required, but preferred:

 

Give us a talent that makes Telekinetic Wave and/or Project useful to this spec.

 

Agreed. Thanks for the succinct summary mate, exactly what we need for the spec.

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@Levity

 

I don't get what you are saying. Like the OP already pointed out, Rippling Force only restores 2 force, which isn't nearly enough to make up for the 39 cost of Project... and inbetween the CD of project, rippling force can proc 2-3 times... it's random, and there's no real way for you to take advantage of the procs. They just happen, and I'd say it's better to use the force you regain on additional double strikes (double strike costs a lot less force and strikes twice, increasing the chance for another rippling force proc by 100%).

 

I do not claim to be an expert when it comes to numbers--in fact, I'm generally pretty bad with numbers, but even so I don't see any reason to use project in your single target rotation unless you're restricted from melee range, for whatever reason.

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@Levity

 

I don't get what you are saying. Like the OP already pointed out, Rippling Force only restores 2 force, which isn't nearly enough to make up for the 39 cost of Project... and inbetween the CD of project, rippling force can proc 2-3 times... it's random, and there's no real way for you to take advantage of the procs. They just happen, and I'd say it's better to use the force you regain on additional double strikes (double strike costs a lot less force and strikes twice, increasing the chance for another rippling force proc by 100%).

 

I do not claim to be an expert when it comes to numbers--in fact, I'm generally pretty bad with numbers, but even so I don't see any reason to use project in your single target rotation unless you're restricted from melee range, for whatever reason.

 

I said while doing the normal rotation, I always have excess force. That's why and when I use it. Rippling Force works as any of the procs in the old shadow rotation. If you aren't watching where/when to expend the most force then you are playing the class wrong.

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I said while doing the normal rotation, I always have excess force. That's why and when I use it. Rippling Force works as any of the procs in the old shadow rotation. If you aren't watching where/when to expend the most force then you are playing the class wrong.

 

What would you consider the normal rotation, as I often find it's quite common to bottom out on force and have to use a Saberstrike. If Saberstrike is part of your rotation then that's just a matter of personal perspective I guess.

 

As for the Project debate, I think I have to agree that even disregarding the force 'management' we currently have, a double strike will still out-damage a project. Considering we have 9% crit chance buff to melee, another 15% from our set-bonus, along with the extra 50% surge to DS in the tree, I can't see Project out-damaging that even with a lot of lucky upheaval procs. Along with the fact that it costs 16 less force to use, I still can't see a point to using Project.

 

Regardless, I'd rather not let the thread fall into a dps discussion for the current spec, but rather a discussion on the current problems and potential solutions to restore Balance back to some level of glory. I think that we have to consider using un-buffed moves in our rotation (Upheaval is inherant to all 3 specs and as thus can be considered a base-line buff to the move, Inf & kinetic both get further buffs) is a sign that things aren't going as they should be for the class.

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What would you consider the normal rotation, as I often find it's quite common to bottom out on force and have to use a Saberstrike. If Saberstrike is part of your rotation then that's just a matter of personal perspective I guess.

 

As for the Project debate, I think I have to agree that even disregarding the force 'management' we currently have, a double strike will still out-damage a project. Considering we have 9% crit chance buff to melee, another 15% from our set-bonus, along with the extra 50% surge to DS in the tree, I can't see Project out-damaging that even with a lot of lucky upheaval procs. Along with the fact that it costs 16 less force to use, I still can't see a point to using Project.

 

Regardless, I'd rather not let the thread fall into a dps discussion for the current spec, but rather a discussion on the current problems and potential solutions to restore Balance back to some level of glory. I think that we have to consider using un-buffed moves in our rotation (Upheaval is inherant to all 3 specs and as thus can be considered a base-line buff to the move, Inf & kinetic both get further buffs) is a sign that things aren't going as they should be for the class.

 

See I don't have any issues with bottoming out on force. I watch when to use everything carefully. Project hits 2x harder then DS does on any type of hit. If I find myself almost force capped which happens maybe 2-3 times in a boss fight, I will use project. I've been switching up how I start fights using project when my relic pops to get a jump on dps. I'm not saying you won't parse good using the normal rotation, I'm just saying if you can time the projects at the right moment you can eek out a tad more dps. I like to optimize and as I said there was a good dps difference when I used project and when I didn't.

 

And yeah I know what you mean in the second paragraph. But BW obviously wants our class to be a DOT class so seeing them do anything about letting us use SS is probably not going to happen. Reverting rippling force back to eating charges of force supression and netting us force could be a possibility. But unlikely. What I would like to see is lambaste taken out completely and adding in a proc to make project cost less. Project to balance is SS to infil and kin. you know? And maybe a small buff to rippling force. I said above I watch it closely and slow or quicken my rotation up depending on rippling force. The slowing down of the rotation so you aren't starved for force is what brings the overall dps down sadly.

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And yeah I know what you mean in the second paragraph. But BW obviously wants our class to be a DOT class so seeing them do anything about letting us use SS is probably not going to happen.

 

I don't think so. Right now balance shadow plays so much like a balance sage (atlest in pvp) minus the utility of a balance sage (drain skirmishers after all). It doesn't make sense to copy paste that exact same thing balance sages have on balance shadows, especially since players pick the shadow AC expecting stealth + melee gameplay. All the other shared trees seem to atleast feel different (no experience with bounty hunters, but I have one each of every other AC). Even the Focus Sentinel and Guardian (both of which are melee !) are fundamentally different in how they escape/avoid battles and use their defensive abilities. Even damage wise, a sentinel has cauterize and twin saber throw (both low cooldown, normal parts of rotation) while guardian doesn't.

 

Worse, it was fine before. No point in changing the play style/perception of the balance shadow, for no reason other than the one that they had to move shadow strike from the bottom of the infil tree. Just feels too lazy for an established game developer like bioware. Even worse, right now the 3 trees are not uniform. There are shadow strike and project procs in two trees(infil and KC), why not the third ? And its not as if infil and KC share a role, one is DPS and the other is tank !

 

The changes have to be unintentional, or they have serious issues in their vision for the class and their commitment to the game. If it was intentional, then well, I can do nothing but regret all the time and money I spent on this game.

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What I would like to see is lambaste taken out completely and adding in a proc to make project cost less. Project to balance is SS to infil and kin. you know? And maybe a small buff to rippling force.

 

While its a good idea, that won't solve the problems I have with this spec. As I said before, DPS is not my concern, I never parsed, but I am satisfied where I am as far as numbers are concerned in PVP.

 

The main problem is the playstyle. Adding project would make us feel part shadows again, but it won't bring back the melee ranged hybrid playstyle. Especially not without project having any sort of synergy with the tree (twin disciplines, however flawed pre 2.0, was atleast something).

 

The idea of playing a balanced jedi master who is good in both saber and the force (but exceptional in neither) is what got me into this game frankly, and its sad to see that's not the case any longer.

Edited by sainik
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I don't think so. Right now balance shadow plays so much like a balance sage (atlest in pvp) minus the utility of a balance sage (drain skirmishers after all). It doesn't make sense to copy paste that exact same thing balance sages have on balance shadows, especially since players pick the shadow AC expecting stealth + melee gameplay. All the other shared trees seem to atleast feel different (no experience with bounty hunters, but I have one each of every other AC). Even the Focus Sentinel and Guardian (both of which are melee !) are fundamentally different in how they escape/avoid battles and use their defensive abilities. Even damage wise, a sentinel has cauterize and twin saber throw (both low cooldown, normal parts of rotation) while guardian doesn't.

 

Worse, it was fine before. No point in changing the play style/perception of the balance shadow, for no reason other than the one that they had to move shadow strike from the bottom of the infil tree. Just feels too lazy for an established game developer like bioware. Even worse, right now the 3 trees are not uniform. There are shadow strike and project procs in two trees(infil and KC), why not the third ? And its not as if infil and KC share a role, one is DPS and the other is tank !

 

The changes have to be unintentional, or they have serious issues in their vision for the class and their commitment to the game. If it was intentional, then well, I can do nothing but regret all the time and money I spent on this game.

 

How is it you don't think so? Mind Crush on a proc? (Complete dot dmg) FB doing internal dmg over time (dot dmg) Top skill in tree: Sever Force, complete DOT dmg. My Mind Crush puts out more dmg then anything else followed by double strike in my parse log. We have passive abilities that all cater to increasing our DOT dmg. Our entire technique works off of our dots. The faster we are dmging the target the more force technique procs.

 

I'm not saying I love the new way balance plays out. But it is blatantly obvious that BW wants our dmg to come from DOTs. I get you are stuck back in 1.7, but really, if you can't see that then I don't know what to tell ya.

 

And first you were saying about classes playing differently from each other, then you go to say there is no uniformity. Your points are clashing there. All specs for shadow play completely different from each other. DOT classes are really fun if they do it right, they, however, didn't. Just look at Watchmen for Sent. Completely reliant on DOTs to do the best dmg possible, as well as a well done class tree. And honestly I could give two hoots about shadow strike. I'd rather have project cost less force with twin disc. then shadow strike.

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How is it you don't think so? Mind Crush on a proc? (Complete dot dmg) FB doing internal dmg over time (dot dmg) Top skill in tree: Sever Force, complete DOT dmg. My Mind Crush puts out more dmg then anything else followed by double strike in my parse log. We have passive abilities that all cater to increasing our DOT dmg. Our entire technique works off of our dots. The faster we are dmging the target the more force technique procs.

 

I'm not saying I love the new way balance plays out. But it is blatantly obvious that BW wants our dmg to come from DOTs. I get you are stuck back in 1.7, but really, if you can't see that then I don't know what to tell ya.

 

I think my last post was badly written lol. I never said we are not a dot based spec. We are, but we also had the flexibility of being good in melee when we want to. Yes dots need to be our primary damage, unlike say vigilance which uses dots just as an added dps and procs to primarily melee damage. I would never have played balance if I thought dots were not powerful !

 

The point of my previous post was that the changes made to balance shadows in 2.0 brought in a lot of asymmetries in the overall class design, and hence they might have been unintentional. I am in no way saying that balance is not a dot spec. By "I don't think so" I was objecting to their intent to make the changes they made, not the fundamental nature of balance as a dot spec.

 

And first you were saying about classes playing differently from each other, then you go to say there is no uniformity. Your points are clashing there.

 

I never said shadow specs play similar to each other. If anything, I do agree with you that shadow specs all play different and that is good. What I said is that balance shadow and balance sage play very alike, and that is bad for someone who has both shadow and sage. Balance shadow is a subtree of the shadow AC, and if anything, it needs to be similar to the shadow AC not the sage AC. By similar I do not mean similar in exact playstyle, but similar in the kind of abilities they use. For eg, ateast one class defining ability needs to have a place in all the trees. For shadows I thought the class defining abilities were project and shadow strike (damage wise), and sadly neither of them synergise with the balance tree. Sure you could still use project, but without twin disciplines it feels hollow.

 

I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying balance shadows could be so much more (and they were). The changes were needless, and thats why I am stuck in 1.7. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

There is no point in us speculating about what their intent was. They are the only ones who can clear the air on this.

 

And honestly I could give two hoots about shadow strike. I'd rather have project cost less force with twin disc. then shadow strike.

 

Thats your opinion, and that is ok. I would however prefer shadow strike. Not saying that I would not like to see project + twin disciplines bac. I would like to get both.

Edited by sainik
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DOT classes are really fun if they do it right, they, however, didn't. Just look at Watchmen for Sent. Completely reliant on DOTs to do the best dmg possible, as well as a well done class tree.

Also watchman sents have the melee ability with the highest base damage in Merciless slash (maybe overhead slash and executes have higher base damage, but its still one of the highest). Yes dots are their main damage, but they could use merciless slash as well. I agree with you that it is a well done class. I like dot specs, and I play watchman sent, balance shadow and lethality op (along with others), so I know what you are saying.

 

The point is, there is no reason for dot heavy specs not to be good in melee.

Edited by sainik
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For PvP, more reliance on dots without any sort of dispel protection is bad.

 

Whenever I parsed, the three abilities that would do top damage (all in between 20-25% of my total damage done) were Crushed (DoT damage), Double Strike and Shadow Strike. Which one topped varied, but they were only a few percentages apart. I parsed with Mox parser.

 

What's interesting here though is that the Crushed damage is the damage from Force Breach and the DoT damage from Mind Crush (not the initial tick). If the DoT damage from Mind Crush had been part of Mind Crush's damage, then Shadow Strike and Double Strike would always top the damage charts. And that is fine. Why shouldn't it be? It's not like Force Breach or Mind Crush would become useless. Mind Crush was a free proc, using it whenever it popped was free damage and saved us from Saber Strike. Plus, they were dots! So we got resource back from Force in Balance.

 

Just talking about it makes me realize just how beautifully crafted the former Balance tree was. This new version is like Sainik is saying; a copy of the Sages tree. We're melee dotters. Force in Balance and tab dot, that is our fun in pvp. As I saw it, Balance Shadows needed some time to set up their damage (dots + force suppression on multiple targets)... if done right, we could pressure healers to death. They wouldn't be able to outheal our damage as we didn't have to stop. It was just pure fun. That is gone, and it is not acceptable imo.

 

The tree used to be a Balanced mix of Force and Melee attacks. It had a beautiful synergy. This new version is not the same at all.

Edited by Majspuffen
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I think my last post was badly written lol. I never said we are not a dot based spec. We are, but we also had the flexibility of being good in melee when we want to. Yes dots need to be our primary damage, unlike say vigilance which uses dots just as an added dps and procs to primarily melee damage. I would never have played balance if I thought dots were not powerful !

 

The point of my previous post was that the changes made to balance shadows in 2.0 brought in a lot of asymmetries in the overall class design, and hence they might have been unintentional. I am in no way saying that balance is not a dot spec. By "I don't think so" I was objecting to their intent to make the changes they made, not the fundamental nature of balance as a dot spec.

 

 

 

I never said shadow specs play similar to each other. If anything, I do agree with you that shadow specs all play different and that is good. What I said is that balance shadow and balance sage play very alike, and that is bad for someone who has both shadow and sage. Balance shadow is a subtree of the shadow AC, and if anything, it needs to be similar to the shadow AC not the sage AC. By similar I do not mean similar in exact playstyle, but similar in the kind of abilities they use. For eg, ateast one class defining ability needs to have a place in all the trees. For shadows I thought the class defining abilities were project and shadow strike (damage wise), and sadly neither of them synergise with the balance tree. Sure you could still use project, but without twin disciplines it feels hollow.

 

I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying balance shadows could be so much more (and they were). The changes were needless, and thats why I am stuck in 1.7. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

There is no point in us speculating about what their intent was. They are the only ones who can clear the air on this.

 

 

 

Thats your opinion, and that is ok. I would however prefer shadow strike. Not saying that I would not like to see project + twin disciplines bac. I would like to get both.

 

Yeah I'm not sure why they are going the route they are. The class was a lot better then. Either they saw some balance issue where we would put off way too much dmg, or they just wanted to make it easy so more people will play it.

 

And I just don't believe we are going to see shadow strike back. I like the dmg from shadow strike ( of course) but I always had a lot more fun with project, the animation, the dmg. (Instead of a stab that makes you like kinda retarded). If they put twin disc. back for project and then added a proc that made project cost less force, that will be a start and I would love them for it.

 

As far as I'm concerned I will live, I'm not a burden on my raid group. Majority of balance shadows don't like how it is unless you never were one in 1.7, so if we keep this thread up maybe it will get big enough that BW will see it and think on it for a few.

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They could easily make it so that shadow strike and project are both part of a rotation, but people can use only one of them if they so wish. For eg, both shadow strike and project could trigger the same proc, and you can use project since you don't like shadow strike. But you could also use both if you want, depending on the circumstance. There need to be some differences of course, since shadow strike is harder to pull off in pvp. Or they could simply add a lot of talents in the tree for each playstyle, and then the constraint will be the number of talent points you can spend in the tree.

 

Anyway the spec in 1.7 had everything in it to keep everyone happy, so the simplest solution would be to make it as similar to that as possible.

Edited by sainik
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They could easily make it so that shadow strike and project are both part of a rotation, but people can use only one of them if they so wish. For eg, both shadow strike and project could trigger the same proc, and you can use project since you don't like shadow strike. But you could also use both if you want, depending on the circumstance. There need to be some differences of course, since shadow strike is harder to pull off in pvp. Or they could simply add a lot of talents in the tree for each playstyle, and then the constraint will be the number of talent points you can spend in the tree.

 

Anyway the spec in 1.7 had everything in it to keep everyone happy, so the simplest solution would be to make it as similar to that as possible.

 

They killed it with fire too much to do that lol.

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They killed it with fire too much to do that lol.

 

not to mention chopping off it's head....stake in the heart, buried upside-down, garlic....ahh you got the point.

 

It would take huge changes to bring back the "old" balance. better to try and modify a few existing skills to try and bring a bit of the flavor back.

 

a couple of basic ideas :

1) project - talent to make it auto-crit and/or give it 30ft range, procced off of DoT's

2) allow use of spinning strike (reset CD and useable outside the 30% window) on proc from DoT's (small proc chance, similar to the new vigilance talent for guards).

3) have each DoT increase damage of double strike

4) bring back our melee damage bonus from Project, but add it as a stackable class only buff from DS.

 

thes are all ideas I've seen in other threads btw (#1 was mine). but it's all about some small changes they could make that would spice up the class, give us something else to watch for, and be based on skills that we already use in the balance tree (new balance tree).

 

I don't think were getting SS back. they'd have to gut infiltrate again, and I don't see that happening. better to work with the onions you have then ignore them and cry about the apple you didn't get. or wont get.

Edited by Elyxin
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I don't think were getting SS back. they'd have to gut infiltrate again, and I don't see that happening. better to work with the onions you have then ignore them and cry about the apple you didn't get. or wont get.

 

Not necessarily. There are plenty of ways to bring SS into balance without changing the infiltration tree or bringing Infiltration tactics back to the bottom tier. there are some suggestions in this and the other thread which could work. Also, nice metaphor :)

 

Even if not SS, any core shadow AC ability that makes use of the double bladed saber would be good (whirling blow as it is on live doesn't count). Its bad enough carrying a saber on my sage without using it, I do not want the same thing to happen to my shadow. I really like your suggestion about spinning strike. I would be really happy if they let it in, even if we don't get shadow strike.

 

There are many ways to make the spec interesting, its just the intent that is required. Anyways, I am getting tired of making so many posts without hearing any word from them in return lol.

Edited by sainik
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PvE is easy. It's just a bunch of numbers, and by adjusting those numbers you can achieve class balance. The current Balance spec might just work fine for PvE, and if it isn't, it's not hard for Bioware to just up the damage of one of our abilities to ensure that it is. PvP is difficult. There's many more factors to consider.

 

As a PvPer I look at 2.0, and for every gain I see a greater loss. Balance Shadows were never considered RWZ material, and even less so now.

 

We gained Phase Walk and we lost Instant Force Lift. Was that a good trade-off?

Phase walk is only really useful for node-guarding and huttball. Bioware claimed that we had too many escape tools... well, perhaps, but I'd rather keep instant force lift than phase walk. Phase walk is a great tool for objective play, but it is not nearly as versatile as instant force lift was. Instant force lift had a multitude of purposes; being an escape tool was just one.

 

Our AoE was buffed through Force in Balance and Force Suppression, yet we lost a lot of single-target pressure and burst. Was that a good trade-off?

No. It was not a good trade-off. In PvP, burst is king... so naturally, losing any burst is a bad thing. Our AoE damage went up quite a lot, so we'll be able to net some amazing numbers for the scoreboard. But the damage on the scoreboard doesn't mean anything if the damage serves no purpose. Balance shadows were always looking good on the Scoreboards, yet our single-target damage was quite lethal, as well. Mainly due to Shadow Strike and the frequency at which it procced. Because of our high melee damage, I was never bothered by the fact that we had no dispel protection.

 

Now the only thing we're good for is flashing our e-muscles at the scoreboard. Our damage doesn't serve any purpose and we've lost a lot of utility with the nerf to instant force lift. Having all the fun being taken out of our rotation is just insult to injury, at this point.

 

I loved this spec. It was the most fun DPS spec I've ever played in any MMO because it was so fluid. It felt balanced, too, so I never feared that it would be nerfed. Out of so many specs in this game, why did they have to bring down the unjust nerfbat on this spec? Why, why, why. Why did they fundamentally change such a unique spec? The way we managed our force was what drew me to the spec in the first place. It piqued my curiosity. Rippling Force is a *********** insult. It's a bloody passive random proc that we do not really have any control over. How on earth is that better than Sharpened Mind? Just... why? :( ... Why, why, why...

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As a PvPer I look at 2.0, and for every gain I see a greater loss. Balance Shadows were never considered RWZ material, and even less so now.

 

Totally agreed and well put. Semi-bump as I want this to stay on front page long enough to warrant a worthwhile Dev post and ultimately give us the re-work we deserve.

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