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Basic Carnage 2.0 Rotation with parses


TradeLA

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While on PTS, I did some extensive testing and parsing with carnage. I found an optimal rotation against the ship dummy that would hit for 2600+ in optimized Arkanian with the set bonus, my best sampling being 2761--I believe that's better than any reported PTS score except maybe a sniper and hybrid PTS before they were nerfed. It has to be adjusted to the situation in combat of course, where other classes don't have as much difficulty adapting--I don't think we dominate the way we did pre-2.0, but damage output is still good especially against unmoving targets. If others have better ideas or suggestions, I encourage you to tear in.

 

2761

 

2727

 

2713

 

 

The basic trick is to get Slaughter to proc as quickly as possible after hitting Gore in order to end the cooldown on Gore and also get a free, no-rage-cost Vicious Throw against the target. In other words, Gore gives you 4.5 seconds to hit the target as if it had no armor, then you want to proc Gore again so you get another 4.5 second window as quickly as possible. Then you have 10 seconds until Gore cools down, and in that time, you want to build up enough rage AND proc execute so you can repeat the cycle and stuff as many high-damage attacks into those two 4.5 second windows as possible.

 

The ideal rotation that works the best for me is:

 

PART I (Burst/Rage-Spending Phase):

 

Gore>Force Scream>Massacre>Massacre>Battering Assault (or Assault if BA is on cooldown, then if slaughter hasn't procced yet, I'll hit massacre)>Gore>Ravage>Force Scream>Dual Saber Attack>Vicious Throw.

 

If Ravage is on cooldown, I'll do VT>Massacre>FS>DSA instead.

 

Massacre has a 45% chance to proc Slaughter, and other attacks have a chance albeit a smaller one, so usually by the time you get through the first Gore>Force Scream>Massacre>Massacre>Battering Assault/Assault, Slaughter has procced and you can continue as above. If it has not procced, you will have to hit more Massacres until it procs, and more Assaults if you start getting low on rage. Even if Gore has refreshed before the end of the second massacre, you need at least one assault or BA to build rage and insure Force Scream will be off its 9-second cooldown by the end of the second Gore window.

 

 

PART II (Rage-Building Phase):

 

For ten seconds, you string together massacres and assaults/battering assault so that at the end of the ten seconds, you have two things: a bare minimum of 8 rage and an "Execute" proc. If and when you see Execute proc, you can use other high damage attacks instead of Massacre (i.e. Rupture, Ravage if it's off CD, etc.) so long as you end up with plenty of rage to make it through Phase I. The Execute buff insures that the next Force Scream will be a critical hit. (In between the first Force Scream in the rotation and the second, there are so many attacks, there is a 95-98% (estimated by my results) or so chance that Execute will proc, so that's one less thing you have to monitor.

 

 

Explanation: the Cooldown of Force Scream, your strongest attack, is 9 seconds. By putting it at the beginning of the first gore window, and squeezing at least one attack in between the two wndows, by the time you get to the end of the second gore window, Force Scream is off cooldown. Insuring Execute is active when Force Scream hits guarantees a huge auto-crit over ten seconds. The rest of the rotation is built around that.

 

OPENER

 

This is where I find the biggest trouble, because Execute isn't procced to start. (I wish Bioware had given us a free Execute to start from channeling hatred instead of up to 30 fury, which isn't that big a help).

 

I usually do Force Leap>BA>Gore>FS>Massacre>Massacre. While Execute usually hasn't procced before I get to FS, this is the best combo I have found that quickly procs Execute and Slaughter so I can immediately begin my second gore window with an optimal Ravage>critFS. While it is possible to get a bigger burst in the first six seconds or so, averaged over 10-12 seconds, this seems to work best, and avoids pulling aggro off the tank as well.

 

BERSERK

 

I fit it in wherever possible, usually in the rage-building phase, where it is most naturally likely to come up. This is because if Berserk is up while you are hitting rage-spenders, you are spending rage without building the fury that rage-spenders give you when Berserk is not up. If you hit Berserk while in rage-building building phase, those Assaults aren't going to build any fury whether Berserk is up or not, so you don't lose anything. Once back in rage-spending phase, you build fury again for another Berserk during rage-building phase.

 

STATS

 

On PTS, Accuracy was tweaked and you needed a little more than on live to hit 108-110%, so I put a couple hundred points in it. That tweak doesn't seem to have made it to live. Otherwise, it was all surge for tertiary stat, all power (no crit) for secondary and might 28 augments. Others were experimenting too and this seemed to be the best set-up.

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Great stuff.

 

Only thing I'm not sure about is your opener. I don't see the point of leading the first Gore window with FS when it's (iirc, given the offhand strike + guaranteed Ataru proc) inferior to Massacre without Execute up. I'd just go Massacre x2 and see what procs. Use FS if Execute is up, if not then VT if Slaughter procs and see if Execute procs during your second Gore window. Worst case scenario, of course, is that you have to keep fishing for Slaughter, but that's true no matter what you do.

 

So far I've maintained a policy of only using DST in two situations:

 

1. I have as much rage as I need, the procs I need, and I don't want to Assault again before the next Gore window.

2. I run out of rage during a Gore window (cause I suck :p)

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Great stuff.

 

Only thing I'm not sure about is your opener. I don't see the point of leading the first Gore window with FS when it's (iirc, given the offhand strike + guaranteed Ataru proc) inferior to Massacre without Execute up. I'd just go Massacre x2 and see what procs. Use FS if Execute is up, if not then VT if Slaughter procs and see if Execute procs during your second Gore window. Worst case scenario, of course, is that you have to keep fishing for Slaughter, but that's true no matter what you do.

 

So far I've maintained a policy of only using DST in two situations:

 

1. I have as much rage as I need, the procs I need, and I don't want to Assault again before the next Gore window.

2. I run out of rage during a Gore window (cause I suck :p)

 

 

Yeah I much prefer to actually build a full fury stack to open and then pop a Gore+Berserk and Massacre spam for that reset.

 

Sometimes when the CD on BA is down to around 5s-7s I'll go ahead and blow a bunch of Rage, and DST is also good there for the GCD right when BA is about to come up.

 

 

As far as FS is concerned, personally even with a relatively good latency of 35-45ms it's very tough to use it 1st in a window because of the hitch it has + ability delay. If I could do it reliably, it would be great. I know that in actual raid conditions I wouldn't be able to make it work. I'd probably add that people would really have to test to see if they'd be able to do it otherwise they'll actually lose DPS doing it that way.

Edited by arkitip
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Yeah I much prefer to actually build a full fury stack to open and then pop a Gore+Berserk and Massacre spam for that reset.

 

Sometimes when the CD on BA is down to around 5s-7s I'll go ahead and blow a bunch of Rage, and DST is also good there for the GCD right when BA is about to come up.

 

 

As far as FS is concerned, personally even with a relatively good latency of 35-45ms it's very tough to use it 1st in a window because of the hitch it has + ability delay. If I could do it reliably, it would be great. I know that in actual raid conditions I wouldn't be able to make it work. I'd probably add that people would really have to test to see if they'd be able to do it otherwise they'll actually lose DPS doing it that way.

 

Thanks to you both for reading and commenting. While ideally, the best damage would come from monitoring what procced, I think the idea behind a rotation is to eliminate the need to check for buffs like execute and decide between different attack options, because it takes your focus away from combat, and if you are instead focused on combat, you won't be able to make those decisions.

 

I don't find it hard at all to follow FS with two massacres inside a gore window even with the "pause" at the end FS. The problem with the pause at the end of the FS only becomes an issue if you are trying to fit three massacres-or even four as used to be possible pre-2.0 with every other cycle--into the Gore window with a FS. That's where you have to have crazy good timing and it takes concentration away from combat. I just assume I'm going to get 2 massacres with FS and don't bother trying for more, so putting the massacres before the FS doesn't cost me anything. It might still be possible with the new Berserk to get in 3 or even 4 massacres, but you lose DPS by waiting to hit Berserk at the beginning of the rage-spending phase--not just because you are waiting and not hitting it as often as possible, but because popping it there means it will take longer to proc it again. That's because you're not building fury during the rage-spending phase as you otherwise could be. It also makes it harder to proc execute during the rage-building phase if you never use Berserk there. Even with the 4% damage boost for 15 seconds you get for hitting Berserk if you have the set bonus--which is more helpful when you are maxing damage during the rage-spending phase--on PTS, I found this a net loss.

 

Complex, I know. If you're still with me...

 

If you use Gore and FS as often as possible, You get, at best,

 

Gore=4.5 second long first window, then another 4.5 second window, then 10.5 seconds until it's off CD again.

 

FS=every nine seconds.

 

By lining these up, and having execute procced every time--or nearly every time--you get your maximum damage output. Two consecutive 4.5 second gore windows, each with a critical-hit FS in them, followed by a 10.5 second cooldown.

 

Often with two massacres right after the first Force Scream, execute and slaughter will proc right away. But if you pop your next gore immediately after the first gore window ends, you will find the second gore window ending just before FS comes off cooldown. I also often find myself too low on rage to make best use of that second window. So I automate the process, just automatically hitting assault or battering assault after the first gore window--it gives me more rage and evens out the timing. I assuming execute will be up before I get to my second FS and don't waste attention checking for it. About 95% of the time, according to my logs, it comes up in time.

 

I do think, however, you may be right that it might be a better opener to build a full head of fury, hit Force Leap, BA,Berserk,Gore,then spam massacre. Then ideally, before you hit your second Gore, you want to make sure you have enough rage left to hit FS at the end of a ravage, so you either don't use it all or throw in an assault. It probably still won't equal the damage if, when opening with Gore>FS>Massacre>Massacre, you crit on FS, but the odds are against it, and it makes your damage output less predictable.

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It seems the rotation of Ravage in the first gore window (as was always the case pre 2.0) isn't being discussed - that's what I generally do, followed by either a massacre or saber throw if vicious throw/force scream haven't proceed. Continually adjusting rotation thereafter to those procs.

 

What is people's math indicating regarding ravage as first priority (equivalent to force scream procced rather than simply on CD)? Especially with set bonus..I would think ravage would remain top priority on CD within gore window.

My thinking is..why rush your procs off the bat - jumping into ravage can ensure (or make it very likely) you won't reset via slaughter right away, and can, after your ravage, then go for both resets and fit procced Scream+Vicious throw (and if berserk is up, another 1,2? skills) in that second gore window. I suppose either of these alignments could work as the initial gore window, but it seems to me that ravage flows better initially. Maybe just because it's what I'm used to as opener more than the other.

 

So it's scenario A, what you're proposing

 

Gore1: FS (unprocced), massacrex2 (vicious throw goes where?) or until slaughter reset.

 

Gore2: Ravage, FS (procced).

 

Scenario B, what I do (after rage building)-

 

Gore1: Ravage, +whatever is up - if execute happened to, FS, if slaughter happened to, VS. If neither, massacre.

 

Interrim- massacre till execute is up, or if already used jump straight into

 

Gore2: FS/VT/DST/Massacre in that priority order depending on availablility from previous.

(also wondering the math on chances of DST beating a massacre with and without ataru, etc, factoring in crits- math is not my favorite subject on this stuff but 'the flow' and awareness of procs and CDs is what I focus on more at the moment)

 

Complicated writing that out but ya..my rotation adapts on the fly. Interested to hear thoughts on this - Ravage on cd out of the gate vs. Unprocced force scream aspect. It seems to me that force scream #2 can easily not be ready when it's time for gore window #2, thus resulting in procced force scream missing that window entirely (though in my experience it usually is up by the end of the window..just sometimes is not depending on that immediate slaughter proc in first window - significance being the gap between the 2 windows, thus FS cooldown).

 

Also - while the case for berserk during rage building is valid - it's also useful in rage spending mode to squeeze in an extra skill during a gore window, for an instant/short term dps boost (debatable over longer term). You can make up that rage building by charging to a mobile boss or something as it moves away, depending on situation.

Personally that's something I try to do whenever possible - DST allows some extra leeway there to move away and charge back in (depending on hitbox of course), as long as it doesn't result in lowered APM, can be a good way to pretty much never run out of rage.

Edited by Airwolfe
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This is whats been working for me in PVP especially.

 

Leap -> Berserk -> BA -> 3x massacere -> gore -> ravage -> scream

 

Slaughter should be up by then

Keep hitting massacre -> gore -> FS (if execute procs) -> vicious throw

 

My FS are hitting big for about 7k and Vicious throw after Gore im hitting 5.5 - 6.5k

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This is whats been working for me in PVP especially.

 

Leap -> Berserk -> BA -> 3x massacere -> gore -> ravage -> scream

 

Slaughter should be up by then

Keep hitting massacre -> gore -> FS (if execute procs) -> vicious throw

 

My FS are hitting big for about 7k and Vicious throw after Gore im hitting 5.5 - 6.5k

 

You can open with Battering Assault + Gore. The Slaughter proc finished the cooldown of Gore and can usually be ready after two Massacre's, and will make your Vicious throw free.

 

As a Carnage Marauder in 2.0 you must make immediate use of Slaughter to maximize your damage. What this means is you need to improvise.

 

Open with battlering assaults + a few regular light saber attacks to build full rage:

 

Gore -> Massacre until:

  • Execute procs (Use force scream)
  • Slaughter is up

 

Once slaughter proc's:

 

  1. Use Gore
  2. Use Vicious Throw
  3. Use Ravage

 

Throw in the new dual saber throw when you're in the odd-interim period were you have about a second before Battering Assault completes. This will depend on what other skills you have to use when you're being kited. Deadly throw, force charge, crippling slash, etc.

 

Basically what you use will depend on how much rage you have available to use and what defensive cooldowns your opponent is using. If you have a low amount of rage, a Gore + Ravage (with Vicious Throw) is a better choice than more massacre spam for an Execute proc. If you have alot of rage, a Gore + Beserked Massacre spam is the best choice (with possibility for Force Scream execute).

Edited by Yeochins
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STATS

 

On PTS, Accuracy was tweaked and you needed a little more than on live to hit 108-110%, so I put a couple hundred points in it. That tweak doesn't seem to have made it to live. Otherwise, it was all surge for tertiary stat, all power (no crit) for secondary and might 28 augments. Others were experimenting too and this seemed to be the best set-up.

 

Did you tried alacrity to get more attacks into that 4.5 sec window?

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Ravage on cd out of the gate vs. Unprocced force scream aspect.

Personally, I still don't agree with TradeLA's leading with unprocced FS - it's inferior to Massacre, so really I just don't get the point.

 

That being said, I do agree with holding your Ravage until the second window. Once you start your first Gore, you want to maximise your chance to proc Slaughter asap, and Massacre is by far the best way to do this via forced Ataru procs.

 

So my opening procedure is:

 

Leap -> Battering Assault [-> Gore] -> Massacre x2

 

Did Execute proc? Force Scream

If not, did Slaughter proc? Vicious Throw

If not, Massacre.

 

Gore again once available, using a rage builder if necessary. Within the second window:

 

Ravage -> highest priority (Execute FS > Vicious Throw > Massacre)

Edited by Aurojiin
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Personally, I still don't agree with TradeLA's leading with unprocced FS - it's inferior to Massacre, so really I just don't get the point.

 

That being said, I do agree with holding your Ravage until the second window. Once you start your first Gore, you want to maximise your chance to proc Slaughter asap, and Massacre is by far the best way to do this via forced Ataru procs.

 

So my opening procedure is:

 

Leap -> Battering Assault [-> Gore] -> Massacre x3

 

Did Execute proc? Force Scream

If not, did Slaughter proc? Vicious Throw

If not, Massacre.

 

Gore again once available, using a rage builder if necessary. Within the second window:

 

Ravage -> highest priority (Execute FS > Vicious Throw > Massacre)

 

This is exactly how I play it.

 

The amount of front end damage I can unleash this way is ridiculous. Especially when you build your 30 fury, pop BT, pop frenzy for Berserk, and pop adrenal and power clickie right off the bat.

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I'm finding more and more that I have to hit Gore pretty quick after Battering Assault, because Battering Assault is proc'ing slaughter for me pretty frequently!

 

I know it sounds weird, but it's kind of annoying...I wish they just made it "Massacre has a 45% chance to grant Slaughter" and not Ataru form damage. But that's just me and someone will probably point out why that's a bad idea...

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I've started parsing again on live. In reply to the comment about the opener--

 

The total of a Massacre and an auto Ataru strike is about on par with FS, and spamming FC>BAk>Gore>Mass>Mass>Mass instead of FC>BA>Gore>FS>Mass>Mass will give you a higher percent chance of triggering Slaughter. If you hit Berserk before Gore, and Slaughter does trigger, you get

 

FC>BA>Berserk>Gore>Mass>Mass>Mass>VT>Gore>Ravage>FS

 

That is superior in damage output to

 

FC>BA>Berserk>Gore>FS>Mass>Mass>Assault>Gore>Ravage>FS>VT

 

UNLESS the first FS crits without Execute, in which case it does significantly more damage. The chance of that is your natural crit %, around 18.5% with 0 points in crit. So while such a crit will give you your best dummy parse, I think I have to say that Artkip and Auro are right that about 80% of the time, opening with FC>BA>Berserk>Gore>Mass>Mass>Mass is better than opening with FC>BA>Gore>FS>Mass>Mass.

 

Hitting FC>BA>Berserk>Gore>Mass>Mass>Mass>Mass from a cold start is not possible. You don't have enough rage for four Massacres.

 

I would prioritize VT over FS with Execute at the end of opening Gore window #1. This is because using FS at the end of the first Gore window will eat up the last of your rage and force you to hit Assault before you can hit Gore again. VT, on the other hand, generates 1 rage and allows to scrape through.

 

After the opener, Gore>FS>Mass>Mass (with Execute up) is still going to be your best option for the first Gore window, with Gore>Ravage>FS (and VT when Gore ends) or Gore>VT>Mass>FS being the #1 and #2 options for the second window.

Edited by TradeLA
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  • 1 month later...

Here we are nearing the end of 2.1 and the lvl72 gear as BiS 'era', and, in my mind it's still debatable which opener is the highest.

The invariable I would say is charge->battering->gore.

But after that, do you

A) Ravage priority for optimal burst in your first gore window, when all buffs are up including adrenal.

Or

B) Scream if procced + massacre/VT if procced going for asap slaughter reset.

 

In my rotation, the difference between these two openers is negligible, slaughter pretty much always procs eother in gore window 1 or within 2 GCDs after. So I'm pretty much always able to fit both gore windows in a bloodthirst at the start of a fight. Theoretically both gore windows should also fit adrenal and weaponmaster..all 15s buffs, but..kinda unreliable to expect all of that to still be up..thus I favor the heaviest hitter first.

The next very small question becomes what is actually a greater priority to have off cd first, ravage or slaughter reset Seems possibly, if you go for the asap slaughter, you may be more likely to encounter the next reset when you arent ready for it..wasting a gore. But that is basically mind blowing conjecture trying to figure out what rng might do.

 

In 2.2, with ravage being affected by berserk alacrity, an optimal opener of ravage,proc FS and during that gettung slaughter+VT all within gore window 1..is just unbeatable. But then you're faced with the question- gore window 2, do I just blow it on massacres, or wait a few and get the next FS in that window.

Edited by Airwolfe
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Where do you see berserk being affected by alacrity?

I've looked over the patch notes and haven't seen it, and I'm going to do a quick test on a combat dummy to see, but I doubt it is true.

EDIT: YEAH!!!! It is affected. Finally.

 

Assuming it isn't, here's what I've found about best rotation. This is done with math by finding which abilities do the most amount of damage for me, and working from that.

Berserk > Gore > Ravage > FS if execute, or VT if slaughter, or Massacre

> (repeat Assault > Massacre until slaughter) > Gore > VT > Massacre > Massacre if berserk has 2 stacks, or nothing > FS if execute and off CD, or Massacre

 

The only time it may not do optimal damage is if it takes a lot of time to proc slaughter, but I proc it almost immediately. Sometimes Slaughter procs before Gore and then I just do the first line.

Edited by Ceile
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What stats are you guys building your marauders on how much crit, power,strength and surge? What seems to be like the sweet spot?

 

This is my current stats I am doing 2700 Dps (give or take) (With stim) before the change to berserk alacrity effecting my ravage. I need to retest now since it changed haven't had time to yet.

 

With stim Pro Nano

 

 

Strength 3159.5

Power 1095.0

Accuracy 237.0

Alacrity 0.0

Crit 245.0

Surge 548.0

 

Damage (Pri) 1430.9 - 1681.9

Damage (Sec ) 332.0 - 497.6

Bonus Damage 927.9

Accuracy 100.44%

Critical Chance 23.93%

Critical Multiplier 74.54%

 

 

Without stim

 

 

Strength2982.0

Power 1025.0

Accuracy 237.0

Alacrity 0.0

Crit 245.0

Surge 548.0

 

Damage (Pri) 1376.8 - 1627.8

Damage (Sec) 332.0 - 497.6

Bonus Damage 873.8

Accuracy 100.44%

Critical Chance 23.57%

Critical Multiplier 74.54%

 

 

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/85d135de-76b4-4605-804d-9427a7009890

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I've pretty much settled on 52 crit..probably will go full power whenever I get around to a new enhancement (likely a 75). I noticed little to no difference parsing between 0 and 1 crit enhancements. I think my parses went up slightly after I dropped from 350, 200 etc crit.
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Hey I've just gotten my Marauder up to 55 and am loving the Carnage playstyle (I hate rigid rotations). One thing I'm trying to wrap my head around is when Gore applies to an attack you've hit. Is it if Gore is up when you activate any (or certain) attacks, you get the armor penetration, or is it if the attack finishes or animates before Gore falls off you get the armor pen?

 

My main reason for asking is because of the small window in between attacks due to latency/incompetence. Say it takes me 0.1 seconds in between attacks. If I hit Gore and spam Massacre (without Beserk or alacrity) I have my first attack at 0 seconds, my second attack is hit at 1.6 seconds, the 3rd at 3.2 seconds. With the third attack's GCD finishing at 4.7 seconds, after the Gore window ends, will the third attack always get the armor penetration?

 

And as far as different behavior for different attacks, do all instant attacks register inside the Gore window just the same? And am I correct in thinking the whole channel of Ravage has to be inside the Gore window for the last tick to get the armor penetration?

Edited by WillLongstick
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  • 4 weeks later...

Noted to some extent in previous posts but to lay it out plainly:

1)Ravage

2) Force Scream (+execute)

3) Vicious Throw

4) Massacre

5) Double Saber Throw

 

Standard gore=Ravage+1 other, or 3 any other.

Berserk gore=Ravage+2 others, or any 4 others (if 3 stacks of berserk).

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I typically always follow this:

Gore 1 - FC>BA>Berserk>Gore>Ravage>FS>VT or Massacre depending on procs

 

If you go all strength augs you end up with about 25% force crit which is hard capped so you've got a decent chance of hitting a crit FS or having execute up plus using the FS in the first gore window forces you to build up the rage needed to go into the second gore window:

 

Gore 2 - Gore>FS>VT>Massacre

 

Its not as huge in terms of damage as the first gore but its still at the least a very quick 13k-20k damage depending on crits.

 

At work ATM so I don't remember all of my stats 100% but I have:

Str 2922

Power 1144

Crit 18.5% (0 rating)

Surge 70.06%

Acc 100.16%

 

I like using the all Str augs since it boosts crit to damn near soft cap for weapon damage and at it for force damage.

 

All that said, I go back and forth between Carnage and Annihilation because I raid at 5am and, being completely honest, sometimes i have trouble reacting as quickly as you have to in Carnage that early. More than once I've accidentally clipped a ravage while trying to make sure I got the next hit out fast enough. Add to that how damn rage-startved Carnage can get compared to Annihilation and its tough. Any of you parse Annihilation vs Carnage for yourselves? I need to do it because I think I'm higher in Carnage I just need to prove it to myself.

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