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Give more credits to the dps


walogen

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Don't get me wrong, granted there are dps(es) that are beyond salvation, I'm not arguing that.

 

I started this game as a sorcs heal, then guardian tank, then scoundrel heal, then shadow tank/dps.

Of course there were many alts in between, those I mentioned above are the one I get them to 50 and actually into hm ops.

 

Now the situation is:

I'm leveling a sniper, we were on mandalorain raiders fp.

The tank just leaped in and focused on one target(usually gold). The other dps followed. Result was lots of silver mobs were on the heal. So I hit those mobs and had them focused on me instead of the healer.

 

In the end, the tank and heal mainly blamed the other dps for pulling groups they planned to skip (which he did), and the healer just thanked the tank for 'awesome tanking'. And the tank claimed that if the other dps had focused on what he was hitting, things should be easier.(He was just trying to blame on the culprit that didn't know how to skip, the other dps was always on the tank's target, I was the one pulling other mobs on the healer to me).

 

My thought is, it's easier to heal two or even three targets, as long as the group of mobs is off the healer. As a dps I always try check if any mobs on the healer, sometime i even waited few seconds for the tank to pull them off, but if it didn't happen, I will hit them and have them on me rather than the heal.

 

I think i'm doing the right thing (ergo the title), but if anyone think I'm wrong, I'm open to suggestion.

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You're doing what a dps should be doing if they're not braindead. There's nothing spectacular or laurel wreath worthy of following the standard kill order and having a bit of common sense.

 

*pat on the back*

Keep up the the good work.

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Tank should pick up any gold and silver, DPS should nuke the unmarked adds, they die very fast, so tank can just ignore them, then move on to silver, then gold.

 

If the tank isn't picking up the silver adds, then he is being lazy and a bad tank.

 

edit: yeah just to answer your point, taking adds off the healer is a good thing.

Edited by Tekkoclarky
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Thats fine imo, top priority should be to get the stuff off the healer, they can't heal anyone if they have to heal themselves.

Splitting damage is perfectly fine,we do get aoe heals anyhow, so why not? :p

As a healer, I'm glad to have people who do this, so I do the same when I'm dpsing and get a lazy/bad tank.

I would likely have thanked you, and not the tank.

Edited by Elegances
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Depending on the type of tank, he may not had his aoe taunt yet. But I have seen tanks that don"t seem to know what a taunt is, or when to use it. You did the right thing. Keeping the mobs off the healers is always first. As a tank, I try to pay attention to the other mobs and taunt if the healer is getting too much attention.
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I have not yet played a DPS, although I'm impressed when they manage to quick target whatever is threatening the healer or are able to work together at removing the weakest enemies from the pull, especially when there is a lot of bells and bangs all around. Sad to say, it's not always like things things happens.

 

Unless it happened all along the flashpoint, the others might not have seen what you saw in this specific fight.

Edited by Nkya
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I've been healing in MMOs since Ultima Online so have seen alot of wierd crap throughout the years. But what seems to be a very common theme in SWTOR (subjectively comparing it with my experiances in other MMOs) is that tanks in SWTOR never really care about adds. That ends up me (healer) being wrecked to shreds or just have to spamheal myself and ignore everyone else (the three first rooms of The Red Reaper comes to mind).

 

Sometimes a DPS sees this and jump at some of the targets that are attacking me and I can't thank you enough. I have however, also seen tanks shouting at DPS for doing just that. It's tricky and I think it just boils down to tunnelvision. I mean, if I were tanking and saw lasershots go past me I'd wonder where the hell they end up. I sometimes have a melee NPC on me for the duration of the fight and the tank kills his and then continues on, without knowing what happens behind his narrow field of view.

 

So with me I much rather see DPS "tanking" than the healer :)

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This is about trash fights, right? Because in boss fights things are quite different.

 

Anyway, during trash fights when I tank (level 50 Jugger and Guardian here) I hope the DPS initially doesn't whack what I as the tank am whacking. Let the tank build up aggro on the main target(s), DPS nuke out the others who will otherwise go for the healer. After the adds have been cleared out, nuke out what ever the tank is targeting. As a healer (level 50 Commando and Sorcere here) I love DPS who kill all the mobs going for me, as a tank I love it when I know the DPS will take out the easy mobs going for the healer while I keep the attention of the biggest baddies, and as a DPS (level 55 Sniper and Gunslinger here) I love it when I can use the big nukes all the time (first to take out the easy targets, then nuke on the targets the tank has already had some time to build aggro on; it is always so boring to go easy with DPS early on in boss fights, isn't it? ;) ).

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It seems harder to tank on this game than others. But I know the problem. I've done heals and dps and encountered that exact problem.

 

A lot of the time, I have to waste energy on the adds instead of the boss. But it is what it is. If people were more perceptive they would know that. It is hard to notice when you're focused on the fight however.

 

But we salute you for doing your duty.

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You did good! Kudos!

 

It's not fun to heal 4 targets, but with mobs on you, it's impossible to heal anyone but yourself.

 

If a tank is telling you to attack the elite with them on a trash pull with weaks & strongs, they don't know how to tank. They should be getting in a quick hit on the elite & then switching to a strong. While they do that - you should be burning up the weaks. And by the time you get done with the weaks, the tank should have control of all the remaining mobs. At that time, you would attack the same target as the tank.

 

If it's elites + strongs + weaks - hit the weaks first, then the strongs, then the tanked target

if it's strongs + weaks - hit the weaks first then the tanked target

If it's a pack of equal mobs - hit the same target as the tank. (unless its a pack of weaks - in that case spam AoE)

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Tanking in SWTOR is a little different than in other MMOs. While yes, if the tank can easily gather up 100% of the mobs for AoEing, that is what they should do. However, most pulls consist of a group of varying strength mobs (normal, strong AKA silver, elite AKA gold, and/or champion) spread out to the point of not easily being grouped up...especially since 80% of the mobs in this game are ranged.

 

It is the tanks primary responsibility to collect and hold the attention of the mobs in order of strength from the strongest to the weakest. Primarily concentrating on Golds and Silvers, and grabbing any normal that they easily can as well. It is the DPS's responsibility to kill the mobs in order of strength from the weakest to the strongest; killing normals first (usually one or two shotted), then progressing to silver and then gold mobs.

 

DPS that immediately start focus firing the gold mob to kill them first are making the pulls much harder than they need to be. First off they are making the tank work 2x as hard to hold agro while they are also trying to grab "stragglers". Second off, they are causing everyone to take more damage overall by not killing the quick mobs first.

 

NPC damage output does not scale the same way their Hit Points do in this game. While a normal mob will generally only have about 30-40% of the hit points of a silver mob...they still do 70-80% of the amount of damage a silver mob does. The same holds true for elites vs strongs. So getting rid of the lowest hit point mobs fastest greatly reduces the amount of damage done.

 

I always give kudos to good DPS in any PuG groups I tank for. Unfortunately I tend to see more dps that do not understand the kill order in this game and focus fire the strongest mobs first, because that is the way many other MMOs are designed (normal/weak mobs in those games do next to no damage and are usually saved until the very end).

 

In short:

 

It is the healers job to keep everyone alive.

It is the tanks job to keep gold and silver mobs off of the rest of the group.

It is the DPS job to kill normal mobs before moving onto stronger mobs, and thus keeping them off the healer.

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Hmmmm...I do both..tank and heals...

 

The other posters are correct. Tanking is def different in star wars than it is in other games, a fact that i am still getting used to...

 

 

 

I am assuming by what i read from the original poster that the tank jumped in but never communicated his intentions of skipping some of the mobs? Please correct me if i am wrong. Now, if this is what happened, and you did what you said that you did, then by all means, you can dps for me anytime. I have such a time when i am trying to heal and the mobs are all over me...i am trying to do everything i can (using my spells to hide myself, running to the tank).

 

The problem with DPS, is that they are a dime a dozen and yes you can get alot of bad dps groups, who just run in, think like the incredible hulk and just smash everything in sight..But there are good dps, just too far and between..

 

As a healer, i have an advantage in that i am in the background (most of the time) so i tend to concentrate on how the tank and the dps are doing their jobs and i reall keep note of how the tank is able to hold aggro, how the dps is taking care of the lightweight mobs. can't speak for other players, but my thinking is this as a healer...

 

Tank - To me, (assuming the tank knows the fp AND knows what he/she is doing) is the pace setter of the group. Not me, not the dps. i go when he goes and i follow instructions if needed accordingly. I hope that the tank will be thee communicator for the group.i expect him/her to mark targets if need be and i expect that this is the toon that will be healing most of the time. However, i have no problem helping people who are new to tanking.

 

DPS - I expect them simply to do their jobs. I HOPE that they are paying attention and can keep heat off of me so that i can do my job. Now, i have had good dps who will do that..heck i even had a dps who was off healing for me when my energy was too low to heal. The one thing that bothers me is when they take aggro of f the tank. Now, most people say "Well, the tank should learn to aggro"..to me, if the mob is aggroing you, help the tank by stop damaging until he/she can get aggro back.

 

Healer - for any healer, myself included, it's a dream when you are in in a group (which i was yesterday) and barely had to heal the dps at all. Sure, we heal anyone, but the 2 dps, i noticed were very careful and deliberate in how they were attacking mobs which helped me a great deal by making my job easier...

 

So, when you are running with dps and they are good, give them kudos..much kudos. :)

Edited by FearMyPower
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The problem generally is a lack of communication in the actual instance.

Bingo. Bad communication. That and 1 joker who thinks he can do it all (the DPSer who tries to tank, the tank or healer who wants to DPS) and it's all over if the encounter is a challenging one.

 

I'll never understand why people try to claim they can do an awesome job off-role. Sure, DPS classes can kind of "tank via DPS," and if for some reason that's the group's only option then sure, go for it. But in every game I see people claiming "I can tank as well with my DPS class as most others can with a tank class" or "My tank is an awesome DPSer." I have no doubt there are Mercenary/Commando players who think they can, and try to, do it all in a group. Then they find everyone but them is dead because the Merc/Commando was splitting his attention and efforts and then they're dead, too.

 

The other posters are correct. Tanking is def different in star wars than it is in other games,

How? "Tank gets the boss' attention" is pretty much how it works in every game.

Edited by branmakmuffin
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I think i'm doing the right thing (ergo the title), but if anyone think I'm wrong, I'm open to suggestion.

 

You're doing what any competent DPS should do. Yes it is always much easier to heal you and the Tank than myself and the Tank. If the Healer didn't appreciate what you were doing then that's a shame.

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Bingo. Bad communication. That and 1 joker who thinks he can do it all (the DPSer who tries to tank, the tank or healer who wants to DPS) and it's all over if the encounter is a challenging one.

 

I'll never understand why people try to claim they can do an awesome job off-role. Sure, DPS classes can kind of "tank via DPS," and if for some reason that's the group's only option then sure, go for it. But in every game I see people claiming "I can tank as well with my DPS class as most others can with a tank class" or "My tank is an awesome DPSer." I have no doubt there are Mercenary/Commando players who think they can, and try to, do it all in a group. Then they find everyone but them is dead because the Merc/Commando was splitting his attention and efforts and then they're dead, too.

 

 

How? "Tank gets the boss' attention" is pretty much how it works in every game.

 

We're talking about trash pulls here, not boss fights.

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DPS that immediately start focus firing the gold mob to kill them first are making the pulls much harder than they need to be. First off they are making the tank work 2x as hard to hold agro while they are also trying to grab "stragglers". Second off, they are causing everyone to take more damage overall by not killing the quick mobs first.

 

This. This right here.

 

Also, unfortunately a lot of DPS players get tunnel vision and just focus on the mobs ahead and around them, ignoring any sort of kill order and totally oblivious to what goes around them. Also, a lot of them seem to get some strange satisfaction from being able to steal aggro away from the tank. :rak_02:

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OP, as a healer, I want to group with you. :)

 

 

Seriously though, there is nothing more annoying for me as a healer than having a whole bunch of mobs beating on me and no one doing anything about it. Ideally the tank would pull adds off, but if they can't for whatever reason (there are plenty of valid ones), then in my opinion DPS should focus fire on those adds. I'd much rather be healing the DPS than myself.

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Also, a lot of them seem to get some strange satisfaction from being able to steal aggro away from the tank. :rak_02:

 

I'll admit I enjoy "fighting" for aggro with Tanks or other DPS. It makes me fuzzy inside when I pull out ahead.

 

That said trash pulls don't count (tanks have their attention divided amongst the mobs) and I never try to if pulling aggro could kill everyone. Going all-out and pulling aggro on The Writing Horror for instance is very bad.

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Don't get me wrong, granted there are dps(es) that are beyond salvation, I'm not arguing that.

 

I started this game as a sorcs heal, then guardian tank, then scoundrel heal, then shadow tank/dps.

Of course there were many alts in between, those I mentioned above are the one I get them to 50 and actually into hm ops.

 

Now the situation is:

I'm leveling a sniper, we were on mandalorain raiders fp.

The tank just leaped in and focused on one target(usually gold). The other dps followed. Result was lots of silver mobs were on the heal. So I hit those mobs and had them focused on me instead of the healer.

 

In the end, the tank and heal mainly blamed the other dps for pulling groups they planned to skip (which he did), and the healer just thanked the tank for 'awesome tanking'. And the tank claimed that if the other dps had focused on what he was hitting, things should be easier.(He was just trying to blame on the culprit that didn't know how to skip, the other dps was always on the tank's target, I was the one pulling other mobs on the healer to me).

 

My thought is, it's easier to heal two or even three targets, as long as the group of mobs is off the healer. As a dps I always try check if any mobs on the healer, sometime i even waited few seconds for the tank to pull them off, but if it didn't happen, I will hit them and have them on me rather than the heal.

 

I think i'm doing the right thing (ergo the title), but if anyone think I'm wrong, I'm open to suggestion.

You can usually pick out the good DPS-es a few flashpoints before that already. Remember the Beast of Vodal Kressh on Athiss?

1. At the start of this encounter, there's a mob standing right in front of the beast. That mob just happens to be a healer. Healing mobs are high priority targets incase some people never figured that out..

A sniper or gunslinger can take it down with one good crit shot. (they have an ability to get a guaranteed crit on one of their higher damage attacks, an operative or scoundrel could still use that same attack and gamble for a crit, or not crit and then finish it off with their default attack using only 1-2 shots).

For some reason, when I'm on my healer, I found it better to not take my chances on a DPS killing it, and just kill that mob myself. Simply because most dps-ers have a tendency to run past it and go for the beast instead.

 

2. There are lots of other mobs around the Beast, and plenty more will come in later. You can basically see a healer as an AOE aggro magnet. Heal 1 partymember, and the healer generates aggro with all mobs involved in the fight.

Once those mobs are on the healer, the healer has basically 3 options. Kill the mobs, heal him or herself, or die in a matter of seconds. None of these options will involve healing the tank. Dead tank is dead party. healer. The healer shouldn't be fighting, at best chip in on the fighting during moments that nobody really needs any healing. But when people need healing, the healer has to be free to heal, and not be forced to fight the mobs instead.

All classes have an AOE of sorts at that stage. Some more than others, but you need it there to keep the mobs away from the healer. Toss a few grenades, unload some rockets, lay an artilllery barrage, it doesn't matter, but keep those mobs away from the healer. It's easier for the healer to keep someone else alive than it is to keep him- or herself alive.

 

3. Positioning. This is the first fight where positioning is important. Positioning is the TANKS' job. The beast will try to kick you around with his long range knockback, so position yourself in a place where it can't knock you too far. For example, with your back against a wall. If the beast moves around and tries to flank you, reposition yourself so you're right between the wall and the beast again. If you don't, you'll get knocked away some 50-80 meters, far out of range of the healer, and won't get healed. It's as simple as that. In addition, your entire group and all the mobs will get spread all over the place, causing a very chaotic fight where you aren't in control. And finally, the chances of landing in a group of mobs that wasn't aggroed is pretty high when you get knocked such a distance into a random direction. Control the fight by positioning right.

 

 

Yes, I've done that fight a dozen times on almost all my characters. Tanks, healers and DPS. It's a piece of cake if you know the basics of encounters and know your role. It's a mess if you don't. But this is the first fight in game where alts from high-end guild players pick the most capable players, that they will want to group with in the future. A tank from one trip, DPS from another, ran into a nice healer there as well, and you have some players networking to do more instances together in the future, perhaps even invite to their raid guild once they hit 50.

 

Mess it up, don't listen to advice, bigmouth them, and you'll find yourself on their ignore list. Even if you do improve and become awesome overtime, they won't see your looking for guild message in general chat, because you're still on their ignorelist.

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