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Another Bolster Thread: But its a good; constructive read!


L-RANDLE

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Hello all,

L-Randle, back again trying to post another somewhat positive thread to combat all the vortex of horsecrap that is SWTOR PvP forum.

 

My typical intention on a thread is to provide a clear synopsis on the current state of the game/mechanic, player feedback, and suggested changes. I only ask and contributors to keep it clear of flame.. Please be constructive if you would like to add or contest.. Let's keep it friendly..

 

Now for the good stuff: BOLSTER/EXP/PVP HEALTH

 

There has been plenty-o-threads about bolster being screwed up, MANY debates about whether it should even exist, and some about how powerful it should be. There are so many tangents that each of those topics can produce that a dedicated thread to improving PvP in general needed to be started. So here I am... This might be long, and I will try to keep it interesting, but the Devs/Mods need some clear direction on what we actually want, but first, we need to agree on some things. So sit back, relax and strap it down...

 

PvP Gear Issues (another short history):

As stated by the Devs, there was a desire to eliminate the gear gap that existed in PvP. Whether you talk about “twinks” in Lowbie, or BiS augmented EWH in 50PvP, gear has a profound effect on performance in a WZ.

Regardless of what metrics existed, BW decided to give people free PvP gear @ 50 which some passed on and some didn’t. Either way, this couldn’t work because if you wore it or not, the BiS players “frowned upon” seeing these players, unless some evidence of competency was shown (if they even stuck around). The moaning continued about the gear gap and premades rolling over them, however.

In theory, Bolster does eliminate a ton of problems, especially @ endgame.

1. No more gear griefing.

2. No more WZ quitters based on EXP/HP numbers.

3. Somewhat equal playing field in a given WZ.

4. Reduced barrier to entry into Ranked PvP.

 

The problem is that some people actually do crave gear progression, as do I, and there is a strong contingent of ‘”fortitude” types that think players need to “man up”, and endure to get gear (which was/is relatively easy).

You can’t eliminate gear from PvP, but the approach that was taken was confusing and a buggy mess because there appeared to be no clear path on how numbers on stat floors and ceilings would turn out to be. In fact, I think bolster was not really changed from what it was in previous lowbie PvP, besides a few multipliers. “Twinks” could fool the system and get significantly higher stats on a toon regardless of level. Just ask my level 31 Sniper, who hit a 4.5k Ambush (not a twink BTW, just a crafter of all things in SWTOR). So how do we fix this mess?

 

PVP Stat Fixes:

Bolster needs to work in Open World & Ranked - If you are flagged in OW, or on a PvP server, Bolster needs to be active. If you intend to keep gear as a part of PvP progression, you have to set a baseline in all PvP arenas. Again, consistency between players is needed in order to address real issues in PvP like class balance and resolve. I know people object to bolster in Ranked, but we, as a community, need to break barriers to Ranked, to increase elite players in Ranked. The elite have a place to go, but at the same time, it is so “gear restrictive” (from the gear aspect at least) that they are forced into lowbie. I have over 300 Valor spread across four toons. Why should I even need gear to participate in Ranked on an alt? I’m not leet, but I can tell you I would not be in normal at all, if I had an option to go straight to Ranked on an alt. I know getting solid gear doesn’t take long, but getting BiS does, and it indirectly encourages farming in normals.

 

Bolster should not grant any END or MAIN buff to characters regardless of level. -This might sound strange and you probably will ask, “How would a level 31 compete with a level 54 if they don’t buff END/MAIN?” See next suggestion.

 

Bolster should only affect EXP granted. – Damage, Reduction, and Heal I/O all play a part in how powerful a toon is. Even if you are at lvl31, wearing greens, your EXP number should be proportionally higher than a lvl 54. Use a cosine function to determine how much EXP is needed to even the playing field in lowbie, and at the same time give some consistency to stats @ 55. Make Bolster a dynamic formula, where it determines how much EXP you need based on your MAIN/END, not item level. If you remove any gear, EXP is added to compensate. If you add gear, EXP is lowered. If that is done, in effect, you have “made people put their recruit gear on” in 55 PvP. Make it whatever number/scale it needs to be, but instead of trying to juggle three numbers, only juggle one, EXP. Base the floor on whatever the current top tier PvE currently provides (assume augmented as well). More on this below…..

 

End-Game PvP gear should only grant EXP adds & End-Game PvE gear will fall in line. – Remove all MAIN/END stat distributions, embed an EXP number (like Forcepower/Techpower, but no armoring multiplication), and lower the EXP on each piece to have a full PvP build with less than a 5% increase over whatever Bolster number you deem required. This will still give some PvP gear progression, but not have the stats skewed so bad, that we have a “gear gap” in the context of PvP Gear. If you want to add another gear tier, increase the gear EXP percent adds by 1-2%. Nothing too crazy, but add it in for progression sake. If people can’t live or compensate for a 5-7% disadvantage, we can say with 100% authority, L2P (or it might be a class/spec issue, but I am not going to go there).

 

If you change Bolster to look at MAIN/END for players then PvE gear will not receive significant amount of EXP from Bolster compared to a low level or an undergeared 55. You should set your EXP bolster floor to the highest possible endgame PvE gear, then move the EXP number higher if MAIN/END has not reached that floor. When you feel the need to add another PvE gear tier, strengthen the EXP Bolster. After consecutive gear adds, move the EXP Bolster, SLIGHTLY, up to keep this type of gap. If people can’t live or compensate for a 7-10% disadvantage, we can say with 100% authority, L2P (or it might be a class/spec issue, but I am not going to go there). This partially works as the new gear tiers only provide ~1300EXP, but use MAIN/END as a baseline, not item level.

 

Increase TTK.- Instead of changing the mechanics to adjust TTK, just adjust the EXP multiplier. Right now from a damage perspective, 1EXP grants .029% of damage boost. Reduce that to say 1EXP grants .02%. You are then increasing control over the number so they don’t become overinflated and keeping TTK at a reasonable level.

 

TL;DR

1. Bolster needs to work in all realms of PvP(OW & WZ).

2. Bolster should not increase MAIN or END, only EXP.

3. PvP gear should be a set EXP add, and reduced to say 12EXP per piece with no MAIN/END adds

4. PvE gear MAIN/END should be the floor of how much EXP Bolster you are granted.

5. Adjust TTK by decreasing the percent granted per point of EXP present.

 

I know this is a lot to wrap your head around. It works perfectly between my ears, but you guys know how that goes sometimes… I really hope this can be adjusted to something like this as I think ALL PARTIES COULD AGREE TO THIS… Support, comments, adds, and “that’s a dumb idea” are always appreciated, but let’s be civil…

 

Thanks Peeps!

L-Randle

 

(Please forgive any spelling and grammar errors.)

Edited by L-RANDLE
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BW has royally screwed the pooch. I don't think they're going to dig themselves out of the PvP hole they're in until they put more effort and thought into it and what they're doing. Their half-arsed fixes and patches break 2 things for everyone they seem to fix. They should roll it back to the way it was, take their 2.0/bolster concept back to formula, engage in a full test on PTS and actually pay attention to what people told them/implement their own metric to catch the bugs, and then bring it back out to the live server.

 

They should also have adequate explanations about what they've done and how it works..the so called "mathy" thread that Eric mentioned yesterday...that stuff should be done right off the bat. I'm sure people could look at it and identify the potential problems.

 

Anyway, you have some well-thought out ideas there. thanks for taking the time.

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Bolster should only affect EXP granted.

 

I actually very much agree with you on this one, balancing three numbers mathematically is something to always be wary of (depending on the functions they are using). Multidimensional functions can always be difficult to predict if not chosen carefully. Switching to one variable bolster can allow them to better control so much of PvP without needing major overhauls of the system every time they feel they need to change something.

 

Anyway great post, and good ideas.

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I actually very much agree with you on this one, balancing three numbers mathematically is something to always be wary of (depending on the functions they are using). Multidimensional functions can always be difficult to predict if not chosen carefully. Switching to one variable bolster can allow them to better control so much of PvP without needing major overhauls of the system every time they feel they need to change something.

 

Anyway great post, and good ideas.

 

Yup,

I see no reason to bolster main/end. Maybe main because it contributes to critical rating, but you could you could always add a Base Crit Bolster based on a similar scale("main/end query") as EXP Bolster, or add a fourth stat, "crit" function to the EXP and Bolster it accordingly to compensate for low levels(which would probably be an even better way to do it).

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I like it. Looks like a pretty simple solution vs. (what appears to me) to be an overly complex current system with holes in it.

 

Well done idea post. Lurking Devs'll hopefully read.

 

 

LOL

Yup... I need to come up with an angle of how this situation relates....:D:o:D

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Yup,

I see no reason to bolster main/end. Maybe main because it contributes to critical rating, but you could you could always add a Base Crit Bolster based on a similar scale("main/end query") as EXP Bolster, or add a fourth stat, "crit" function to the EXP and Bolster it accordingly to compensate for low levels(which would probably be an even better way to do it).

Is that really necessary? You can be at level 20 and still have a healthy amount of crit since percentage point per crit rating is higher at lower levels. The only problem I see is the lack of stats coming from missing relics which can be fixed by flat stat increase.

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Is that really necessary? You can be at level 20 and still have a healthy amount of crit since percentage point per crit rating is higher at lower levels. The only problem I see is the lack of stats coming from missing relics which can be fixed by flat stat increase.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I wouldnt worry about it too much in 10-29 bracket, but with limited access to skill trees and the amount of crit/surge available from 30-54, I would heavily examine it. Those are tweaks that could be tested on the PTS, but yeah I agree that K.I.S.S. would be the best way to handle Bolster, if possible.

Edited by L-RANDLE
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To be frank I didn't quite understand what you are saying.

 

Gear has level restrictions, so inherenttly, lower levels will not be able to stack as much crit as a 54 would be able to, regardless of the DR. You are not always afforded 3-4 stats on a particular piece. So you could be looking at swings of 10-20% crit ratings between 30-54.

 

Just as an example I built a quick lvl 30 toon on askmrrobot. I put lvl 30 pieces in each slot and only got the melee crit to 20%, whereas most carry between 30-35% in WZs (at least in the previous build). I know they buffed the DR on crit, but 10% is a pretty big gap on something as gamechanging as hitting a crit..

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Basically any kind of bolster system is too hard for bw to pull off.

 

What should happen is...

 

1. Even stats across the board for lowbies. If you want to get a little flashy then have some unlock that you can either get from questing (or the cartel market...BW is listening now!). That would allow you to mess with several of your stats.

 

For example, you could change main, end, crit, surge, alac. To increase one you have to decrease another and have all of them cap around 5% or so just to make it easy on balancing.

 

2. For 55s take away most of the modding for pvp. This isn't needed for pvp. Some pvp gear progression is fine but it should be rather obvious. Leave true min/maxing for pve types. PVP should be about skill more than getting several sets worth of gear and then stomping noobs.

 

They could leave a few pieces moddable for ppl that want some slight boost (maybe weapons and body armor for example). This would also solve a lot of balance issues people wrongly qq about.

 

3. For 55s Buff everyone up to the same stats in pvp and make these stats about 2-3% below the first tier of 55 pvp armor. This way pvp gives some slight reward but not too much and this is a range that is still purely about skill.

 

4. For 55s have the 2nd tier 2-3% better than the first tier of 55 pvp armor. This again would be noticeable but still reasonable and still more about skill.

 

5. For 55s make the first tier cheaper than it is currently. I know you can get it really fast (I got wh within a few days on all 8 of my 50s) but lets make it even faster. Don't give noobs the gear excuse and make them rage quit.

 

6. For 55s make the 2nd tier of 55 pvp gear decently more expensive than it currently is. This would be your grind. Also, 3% is still pretty big in teamplay pvp. That 3% really can make all the difference and is still very much worth it gear progression wise. Also, I am saying this having 8 chars I will have to gear up so I am not trying to screw the ppl still leveling lol since I am one of them.

 

7. Off topic but there are a buttload of premades now so add premade matching. I want to premade but I refuse to make a good one again until premade matching is implemented. Pugstomping is for drinking and for mediocre losers.

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Hello all,

L-Randle, back again trying to post another somewhat positive thread to combat all the vortex of horsecrap that is SWTOR PvP forum. [...]

 

Basically, I quit reading right there. There have been a number of posts where people have reported bugs and/or anomalies they have found. There have also been a dearth of posts offering solutions/remedies to situations that BW have acknowledged to be unintended. To outright dismiss the *ENTIRE* contents of a forum (all of the PvP forum) as "horsecrap" -- save your own self-declared erudite offering -- is the height of narcissism and hubris.

 

Go away.

 

(I apologize for nothing.)

Edited by BoushhDC
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Basically, I quit reading right there. There have been a number of posts where people have reported bugs and/or anomalies they have found. There have also been a dearth of posts offering solutions/remedies to situations that BW have acknowledged to be unintended. To outright dismiss the *ENTIRE* contents of a forum (all of the PvP forum) as "horsecrap" -- save your own self-declared erudite offering -- is the height of narcissism and hubris.

 

Go away.

 

(I apologize for nothing.)

 

 

Well thanks for being a prime example of the vortex.... You don't need to contribute to this thread if you feel that way... For all the "good threads" that exist in the PvP forum, there are thousands that are not. It was somewhat of a joke, not to be taken very seriously, but thanks for the bump I guess...

 

/Smooches

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snip.

 

I agree with a lot of your points, but the reason I say just move EXP is to simplify Bolster by only moving one number instead of a flat stat increase on all numbers. That way, theoretically, gear across all levels are irrelevant to PvP, besides, as you pointed out, a few progression type "shells" that would have a slight advantage over a base EXP bolster.

 

Personally, I would not like to eliminate min/max in PvP. And maybe they should adapt the current system where @ 55 you can buy loose mods for a low price and min/max to your hearts desire on tertiary stats. You could need to remove any main and END from these PvP specific mods, but the goal is to make these specialized so players have some sense of customization. How would you feel about something like that?

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. Please be constructive if you would like to add or contest.. Let's keep it friendly..

good luck with that. :rolleyes:

I think BW has really gotten lost with the raison d'etre for expertise and bolster.

 

bolster is just broken. if it were working as (supposedly) intended, then I think it would be acceptable.

 

the larger problem is their implementation of expertise in general. if everyone who enters a WZ has the same base expertise (and pvp gear only increases main/side stat attributes), then what is the point of expertise at all?

 

expertise, in my experience, has always been a mechanism to prevent pvpers from "cheating" their way to end game pve content and vice versa. so if you're going to drop 2005 expertise on everybody in the WZ regardless of their gear set, then what was the point of expertise in the first place?

 

Gear Grind is/was Fine

if you look around this forum and in-game, I'm one of the most vocal proponents of liberal actions (balance this, unfair that, etc.). love or hate me for that, I think it says an awful lot that even I think gear griefing and the previous gear grind (recruit > wh > ewh) was perfectly reasonable. if you couldn't get to full wh within one week simply by completing every daily and one weekly, then you just did it wrong. ppl do things "wrong" all the time. that doesn't mean the system is broken. if you didn't hit 50 with max comms, that's not the system's fault. that's on you. and tbh, it still wasn't a big deal to throw on some recruit gear. you could replace a piece of recruit with wh, on average, in 4-5 WZs. if you couldn't, then you're either not very good, very unlucky, or there's a faction imbalance on your server. that's not the gear progression system.

 

Gearing Alts in a Gear Grind System

as regards getting an alt into rated play, BW has given players an easy pass for that too: legacy gear. you don't wanna grind comms for a week on a gear disadvantaged toon? here's an idea, while you're leveling your alt for 55 levels, do the daily every day and weekly every week on your geared toon. buy the partisan gear, rip the mods, put them in that nice, shiny legacy gear your purchased, and have it there waiting for your alt when he dings 55. he'll have max comms, 5 partisan main pieces, and if you ever bothered to get the legacy weapon(s), a partisan weapon to boot. instantly competitive right out of the box. he's an alt, so this won't be your first rodeo.

 

don't get me wrong, I hate legacy gear. it ruined armormech and synthweaving to me (so has cartel adaptive gear you can put on at lvl 1). but I think the secret's out about how to use it to gear alts at this point.

Edited by foxmob
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Randle I see what you are saying and I liked your points too but as far as min/maxing goes my point was to make it mean less. On several of my characters wh and min/max wh was (if i was forced to state a %) a 50% difference if not more. That equals a huge grind to make lesser skilled pvprs feel more skilled by having much better gear with the same shells.

 

I think some lvl of min/maxing is good and fun and I agree with you that some is needed. I think it should be to a lesser extent though. It is important to realize that the gear difference wasn't recruit to wh/ewh it was recruit to min/maxed wh/ewh. Until everyone thinks that way it will be very hard to implement a bolster system.

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Also, the main point of what I am saying is the need to make bolster and gearing for pvp simpler. When I was young I always wanted to come up with complex solutions and I thought those were the best but one of the main things I have learned working on many projects is that if you can solve something simply then do it.

 

If they boosted stats up to an equal lvl and then gave a little room for min/maxing but not too much then it would be much easier to keep the system set up that way and much easier to balance classes. My sent/jug was never op compared to my other classes, it was just that when I had a huge amount of power/str it then became op.

 

What I am asking for would still give a carrot on a stick and would still allow for some min/maxing it is just that it would be much simpler to implement, make for more even matches, and make balancing classes easier.

 

One other point is that by doing it this way then stats for lowbie wouldn't matter and when it came to 55 then exp could go back onto the pvp gear. This would take away the pve problem and it would allow exp to exist in world pvp as it should.

Edited by DarthRaika
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  • 4 months later...

 

Gear Grind is/was Fine

if you look around this forum and in-game, I'm one of the most vocal proponents of liberal actions (balance this, unfair that, etc.). love or hate me for that, I think it says an awful lot that even I think gear griefing and the previous gear grind (recruit > wh > ewh) was perfectly reasonable. if you couldn't get to full wh within one week simply by completing every daily and one weekly, then you just did it wrong. ppl do things "wrong" all the time. that doesn't mean the system is broken. if you didn't hit 50 with max comms, that's not the system's fault. that's on you. and tbh, it still wasn't a big deal to throw on some recruit gear. you could replace a piece of recruit with wh, on average, in 4-5 WZs. if you couldn't, then you're either not very good, very unlucky, or there's a faction imbalance on your server. that's not the gear progression system.

.

 

I agree. Well said. I get sick and tired of reading pro-make-things-easier-for-people-who-simply-fail ideologies. Just because you can't do it right or better than someone else doesn't mean you aren't the problem yourself. It doesn't help that BW caters to the inept for the sake of a profit ("subs"). Pathetic.

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55 Ranked/ Regs. should NOT have bolster. Because for one the bolster in 55 pvp barely works anyway... If I went in with full 55 PVE gear on the bolster barely does anything. Sure I might have a lot more health than the other 55s but bolster doesn't give me the extra boost I need to defend myself. Lowbie/ mid brackets bolster is a MUST. Since like you said a level 30 won't do anything to a level 54.. OW pvp I guess it would be OK. But I sure as hell wouldn't like a 30 maruader taking me out like all the others if OW was bolstered. Maybe in OW they should make OW bolstered but less than the full bolster we see in WZs. Just a thought.
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I came into SWTOR as a Fan Boy with no MMO experience. I worked on Websites and had my fill of talking about computer stuff, so I played Il2 and did competitive and sport mountain biking plus flyfishing etc.

 

I busted my butt at every level on my poor choice of classes (merc) and made every mistake possible. I was amazed at the way the community treated entry level players. I found that I got extreme unwarranted flaming before a match when I had my recruit gear on. I also found that even though my knowledge of the game and classes did not improve , I was stomping people after I got my War Hero gear.

 

SO given this background, bolster does help eliminate the steam roll of 2-6 players who may be honestly trying to learn the game. Those people are also the future of the game and pvp within the game.

 

Now, I am just as confused at the real stats and how to min max my gear. It amazes me, that I can buy one mod for 500 comms and get more of a boost than buying the Conq piece for 1500 ranked comms. I am also amazed at how many "good" pre-made pvpers look at the numbers of PVE gear and can not do the math to get the percentage difference in that gear with the PVP multiplier. Of course why should anybody need to compare percentages with multiple variables in their spare time.

 

I have just thrown bolster into the category of how to EXPLOIT/MAXIMIZE class choice, crafting, min/max, leveling speed, etc that everybody takes for granted. I don't always like this. If learning the ins and out of a system makes me better, I have found it is easier to learn than complain.

 

There were many things as a newcomer that I thought were unfair and unbalanced, but I now know these would be considered a complete L2P issue if I even mentioned them on the forums.

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