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PvE Shadow dps... Why?!


Wrathz

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I've been wondering why Shadow dps is the worst dps class at the moment... People who play Shadow now, are only viable (in PvE), as tanks! Anyone can deal more damage than Shadows... Even Scoundrels can!

 

In my opinion, it would be perfect if he gets a buff or something... But that's my passion for Shadow dps talking...

What do you guys think?

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I disagree, actually. Parsing is deceptive because so much of shadow DPS is wrapped up in their execute talents. On several actual bosses, in Campaign/Hazmat gear (about half-n-half) at level 55, I was doing about 2-2.1k DPS in Balance spec. That's actually really really good at that gear level. I was out DPSing a Gunnery commando at the same gear level by almost 80 DPS. If I got myself into 69s, I'm pretty confident that I could match the top-tier DPS numbers that people are seeing.

 

Granted, this is my off-spec, and I *do* tank in PvE, but not because I think it's the only role that's viable. When I tell people that my ideal raid composition includes a balance shadow, I'm not being facetious.

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If I got myself into 69s, I'm pretty confident that I could match the top-tier DPS numbers that people are seeing.

Good to know, I hear only the complaints from everywhere. I'm playing balance since beta andeven though I'm looking at the infiltrator now (I just hate that the balance went from melee fighter to a "stand close and wave dots and look stupid" :mad: class) I really would like staying balance.

If it's valid, maybe staying will be easier.

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Good to know, I hear only the complaints from everywhere. I'm playing balance since beta andeven though I'm looking at the infiltrator now (I just hate that the balance went from melee fighter to a "stand close and wave dots and look stupid" :mad: class) I really would like staying balance.

If it's valid, maybe staying will be easier.

 

..and i dont like how they changed the buff icons now for Balance.

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Infiltration/Deception is not in a terrible place either, though I haven't tested it beyond the FP level yet (I don't really DPS Ops ever, especially not on Assassin). The changes to Spinning Strike/Maul are pure positive (though require 4-5 "wasted" GCDs per minute to force procs), and the changes to the rest of the tree are not the nightmare a lot of people initially feared. The priority system is fairly fluid but not excessively onerous.

 

I've been running some FPs with a Sniper friend who's primarily been playing Engineering. Single target DPS has thus far been roughly comparable (and much more front-loaded), he only pulls ahead by a large amount when he can abuse the roll-bomb-drop mechanic on large bosses and Engineering's insane AoE output on multiple-enemy bosses. Otherwise, there's a 100 DPS or less difference coming down to luck, procs, and frequency of mistakes.

 

Balance/Madness should be lookin' real pretty on multi-enemy boss fights, and its overall DPS seems to be fine, though I haven't tested it much.

 

Grain of salt here... my DPS gear for Sin is recently-converted WH/EWH gear, so PVP DPS set bonuses, high-END armorings, and not 100% optimized for PVE (Accuracy/Surge balance is slightly mistuned towards the latter as that is more advantageous in PVP on non-Sage/Inq and non-tank targets).

 

Second grain of salt... I've primarily played Assassin as a tank, so I'm not anywhere near as polished playing it as a PVE DPS as most. I've played very little full-tree DPS even prior to 2.0 as various hybrids (especially Wakajinn) were so good for PVP, and Marauder was and remains so good for PVE.

Edited by Omophorus
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Uhm. Shadows/Assassins have the highest burst in-game at the moment. Sure their damage is kinda spiky but it's definitely not the worst DPS.

 

Burst and DPS are two entirely different things.

 

On the upside, the burst spec does have enough sustainable output to be competitive. It isn't horribly shackled by resource limitations and frustrating/aggravating to play competently like pre-2.0 Scoundrel/Operative (Scrapper/Concealment) in PVE.

 

It is specifically Operations bosses (or, more accurately, Ops dummies) where people are complaining about Shadow/Assassin performance.

Edited by Omophorus
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Burst and DPS are two entirely different things.

 

On the upside, the burst spec does have enough sustainable output to be competitive. It isn't horribly shackled by resource limitations and frustrating/aggravating to play competently like pre-2.0 Scoundrel/Operative (Scrapper/Concealment) in PVE.

 

It is specifically Operations bosses (or, more accurately, Ops dummies) where people are complaining about Shadow/Assassin performance.

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about... In Operations, everyone deals more damage than Shadow (Infiltration).

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That's exactly what I'm talking about... In Operations, everyone deals more damage than Shadow (Infiltration).

 

Neither Infiltration nor Deception were ever conceived as group-friendly sustained DPS specs.

 

Whether it's good design or not is an entirely separate question, but right from Austin's mouth, they're supposed to be lone wolf burst/gank specs.

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The only thing which isn't sustainable, is when you need to use shadow strike and you can't get behind the boss without considerable difficulty. This means I have to take it out of my rotation on occasion, which means my dps becomes extremely sub par, we do rely on that shadow strike alot!

 

However for these fights, you can still switch to a hyrbid balance build, which enables your dotting as well as keeping up constant damage from force breach.

 

Nothing wrong with shadow dps in pve, if you learn how to use multiple builds and tailor your build to the fight.

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The only thing which isn't sustainable, is when you need to use shadow strike and you can't get behind the boss without considerable difficulty. This means I have to take it out of my rotation on occasion, which means my dps becomes extremely sub par, we do rely on that shadow strike alot!

 

However for these fights, you can still switch to a hyrbid balance build, which enables your dotting as well as keeping up constant damage from force breach.

 

Nothing wrong with shadow dps in pve, if you learn how to use multiple builds and tailor your build to the fight.

 

I can't think of a fight that I have any difficulty using SS in, besides may Dash'roode; and even then its just laziness on my part.

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I can't think of a fight that I have any difficulty using SS in, besides may Dash'roode; and even then its just laziness on my part.

 

Stormcaller and firebrand

 

1st Part, colonel Vargath

 

The terror from beyond (sometimes won't seem to activate even if I run right the way round)

 

Infernal council

 

Might just be me, and how I play in the fights, but for all of the above I can never get shadow strike in on the boss. I switch to my hybrid, and everything is fine. :)

 

Nothing wrong with shadow dps, hell I even run in Kinetic Combat spec to dps with dps gear sometimes and it still does very respectable damage. (Sorry no recent logs to show)

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Stormcaller and firebrand

 

1st Part, colonel Vargath

 

The terror from beyond (sometimes won't seem to activate even if I run right the way round)

 

Infernal council

 

Might just be me, and how I play in the fights, but for all of the above I can never get shadow strike in on the boss. I switch to my hybrid, and everything is fine. :)

 

Nothing wrong with shadow dps, hell I even run in Kinetic Combat spec to dps with dps gear sometimes and it still does very respectable damage. (Sorry no recent logs to show)

 

Stormcaller and Firebrand - not sure what strat you use, but SS is not an issue. I can actually SS them when taunted on me.

 

Vorgrath I'll give you on NiM. Not easy, but not impossible.

 

TFB - havent had any such issues.

 

Infernal Council - no longer a relevent fight, and always killed mine first anyway.

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Uhm. Shadows/Assassins have the highest burst in-game at the moment. Sure their damage is kinda spiky but it's definitely not the worst DPS.

 

High burst yes, highest burst, I would disagree. Marksmanship Gunslinger would be taking that title, especiallly now with the energy use improved substantially.

 

I've played as a dps shadow for a long time now as my main, and only since 2.0 have I considered becoming a tank. The dps is viable yes, but it does need some attention to bring it back up to where it was.

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Stormcaller and Firebrand - not sure what strat you use, but SS is not an issue. I can actually SS them when taunted on me.

 

Vorgrath I'll give you on NiM. Not easy, but not impossible.

 

TFB - havent had any such issues.

 

Infernal Council - no longer a relevent fight, and always killed mine first anyway.

 

 

As you say, might just be how my guild gets me to play. In Firebrand and stormcaller, I am given a set spot and if I move, people aren't happy. I guess I always thought that was how it needed to be done, so I didn't argue.

Vorgath, main problem is the droid that comes, that is impossible to get a good ss on. However main boss and turrets aren't a problem.

 

TFB - bug? I did report it but still happens for me.

 

Infernal council (kinda relevant as I do gearing runs to help others out) I have no problem with it as I go balance and finish them first.

 

Have yet to do S&V so not sure how mechanics play out there.

 

I do find I can parse decent enough numbers on infiltration and the new balance.

 

No really recent log example, will look into getting some up!

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While some points above are valid, I can tell you (and I always and only played Infiltration), our burst is quite good, but still NOT good enough.

In my opinion I should be removing "silvers" in a rotation of three, four hits, bam! gone.

Gold stars - they usually take a bit longer (2- 3 full rotations, if not interrupted by enemy stun or whatever).

 

The nerf to FB is still bad imho, I loved that ability, but now it's just few more movements, you need to make to stay, at least aside of the mob, so the SS can be applied.

 

But FINALLY in PVP, woow!

I remember how HARD it was to have decent damage without WH/EWH gear, now in Black Hole PVE gear I am just a mark of death :) All of the sudden I am in top of the lists on the kills.

 

yes, others also kill me, but my burst now really means something.

 

And if you knew the class before (not much chances to survive being stunned and hit by operatives/marauders) and the fact you HAD to choose whom to attack -seeing who is loosing their HP.. Now I approach anyone and they DIE :)

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Balance is gimped because they changed it too much. They made it a class that relies specifically on it's DOTs which is what it was meant for so there's no complaint there. What they failed to do was make that DOT dmg scale to other dps outputs. I'm not having any issue hitting fair #'s in boss fights, but that is all it is, is fair.

 

The whole " we do better in execute phases" is all good and dandy, however, when you are doing 2400 dps for 70% of the fight, and 2500 for the last 30% , it doesn't come close to equaling out since that sentinel or that gunslinger has been doing 2600-2700 the entire fight. Btw 2400 sustained DPS was what was being parsed on the dummies in PTS with people in full arkanian. In my 66's/69's I'm doing about 2200. And 2400+ parses are extremely good with lucky crits. mid 2300's is where you will be until execute phases.

 

Just some math: an avg. fight will take 6-7 minutes

I'm going to use the avg. parse # of about 2300.

 

6 miniutes x 60 = 360 total seconds in the fight.

At 2300 dps for 70%( assuming you get the boss to 30% in 5 minutes and the last minute is the last 30%)

690,000 and then 2400 dps for the last 30% 144,000

690k + 144k = 834k

 

Using the avg. for others which is 2600:

936k

 

In that scenerio you are lacking 100k dps. That is the difference between hitting enrage or not hitting enrage because they gimped the class.

 

To fix the issue I would simply up the damage of saber strike. We use saber strike a lot now since there was a small nerf to our force regen.

 

Also those #'s aren't horrible for SM content, but once you get into NM/HM, it means everything, so the simple fact that no matter how good you play the class you will still be lacking dps just because they took away it's burst is sad.

 

*****This is subject to change, no balance shadow is full 72 geared with full 28 augments, so who knows what kind of dps that will pull. I know as balance spec, you can sacrifice a lot of crit and a lot of surge so you can mass a stupid amount of power and accuracy to fuel your DOT dmg. so maybe what they put out on the PTS was just because of the limiting factors. IE not full 28 augments/no new relics/ no new stims*******

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why did u say our force regen is nerfed?!

 

I see a small buff, I use few times saber strike with 5/36/5. :confused:

 

I had to use saber strike once in my rotation before 2.0. Now it's 2 or 3 spread out through my rotation. It was a small nerf, rippling force net backs just a little less force then how it used to be. I can't remember what it was called pre 2.0. There was a thread on it that showed the mathematics. Also, I'm talking about Balance spec, I run 7/3/36, so there's a difference in specs here.

Edited by Levity
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