2.0 Guide: Guardian DPS for PvE Raiding

[Mattmonkey]

It's possible (without alacrity bonuses) to do force exhaustion, master strike and force scream within the post-smash dmg buff.

 

What should my critical multiplier be right now with vengeance?

 

Prolly 2 questions there mate.

 

1: what crit for Vigilance?

2: what crit for focus?

 

any maths guys out there able to do some exact numbers or do i have to spend days testing (which is inexact anyway)

[Mattmonkey]

im in full artifact gear(basic comm gear) i got 20% crit unbuffed,72%surge. im about to augment,should i go for might(+32 str/+20 end) or for the power equivalent(+32 power/20 end)? i was thinking to add the str augments because of the +% gained from the consular buff and also the +6% from skill trees, this will take my str to 2530 unbuffed(will rise as and when i get arkanian and the next tier) what would your thoughts be on this? im not sure if there is dr on mainstat

 

p.s thank you for the work you put into this guide and the previous one,helped me immensely

 

My strength is 2794 currently if i add 100 strength i get .23% crit. if you add 14 might augments you get 448 strength thats just over 1% crit at around these strength levels (the curve is not quite but almost flat up to 4k - check the DR curves linked in the guide). You also get 99.45 bonus damage.

 

If you add all power augments you get 103.04 bonus damage.

 

To me these numbers add up to a no-brainer! I dont know why this question keeps comming up - i guess back in 1.2 when the NOXIC guide was spreading this misinformation it took hold. I think so many people are unaware that crit raiting and crit from strength are on seperate diminishing returns curves and what this means in practice. Any way thats as ranty as i get - I know if you ask the question 100s will be thinking it so thanks for asking. Thats the math you decide.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Mattmonkey

[vadess]

If only there was something this thorough on the imp side.

 

Question: Could you give like basic run down of your rotation? For example, what is your opener and how do you circle through things throughout the fight? Also, what stats should I focus on when transitioning to 69 gear?

Edited April 22, 2013 by vadess

[darrenwn]

My strength is 2794 currently if i add 100 strength i get .23% crit. if you add 14 might augments you get 448 strength thats just over 1% crit at around these strength levels (the curve is not quite but almost flat up to 4k - check the DR curves linked in the guide). You also get 99.45 bonus damage.

 

If you add all power augments you get 103.04 bonus damage..

 

thanks for the reply

[Mattmonkey]

It's possible (without alacrity bonuses) to do force exhaustion, master strike and force scream within the post-smash dmg buff.

 

What should my critical multiplier be right now with vengeance?

 

A safe answer to the crit question when we dont have any maths experts telling us the perfect amount.

 

Stack 250 crit raiting: http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/09/1362011240-dr-curve-2-0-swtor.png

if you look at the DR on crit raiting 250 is about where the curve starts to get flatter and that means less bag for your buck. your actual percentage will got up a bit as you get more strength but your crit raiting from raiting will be optimised in terms of this single (but most significant) factor.

[Alec_Fortescue]

A safe answer to the crit question when we dont have any maths experts telling us the perfect amount.

 

Stack 250 crit raiting: http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/09/1362011240-dr-curve-2-0-swtor.png

if you look at the DR on crit raiting 250 is about where the curve starts to get flatter and that means less bag for your buck. your actual percentage will got up a bit as you get more strength but your crit raiting from raiting will be optimised in terms of this single (but most significant) factor.

 

My brain nearly exploded when I looked at the chart, along with reading what you just typed. ; )

 

Could you say the percentage of crit I am looking after?

[vadess]

My brain nearly exploded when I looked at the chart, along with reading what you just typed. ; )

 

Could you say the percentage of crit I am looking after?

 

I'm only a layperson in this but my crit is at 32% with buffs

[Mattmonkey]

My brain nearly exploded when I looked at the chart, along with reading what you just typed. ; )

 

Could you say the percentage of crit I am looking after?

 

just open your character sheet and hover the mouse over your crit. you will see a number form crit raiting - this should be around 250 (prolly 200 - 300 is fine)

[Joefjr]

My brain nearly exploded when I looked at the chart, along with reading what you just typed. ; )

 

Could you say the percentage of crit I am looking after?

 

You have to go by the Crit Rating amount listed when you mouse over crit because, Crit Rating--->Crit % and Str-->Crit are on two different scales not to mention the talents/buffs that are also combined into your total Crit %.

[Mattmonkey]

You have to go by the Crit Rating amount listed when you mouse over crit because, Crit Rating--->Crit % and Str-->Crit are on two different scales not to mention the talents/buffs that are also combined into your total Crit %.

 

There are two approaches to this. the most accurite approach is to work out the best possible crit percentage and then raise or lower your crit raiting to maintain that percentage (last expansion this number was 32-33%). The advantage of being this accurite is that as you get more crit from strength you can drop crit raiting and replace with power producing the abo****e top DPS. The problem is it takes some clever maths to work it out.

 

The second approach is to look at the diminishing returns graph and mark the point there the crit raiting curve starts to flatten out. this is then the amount of crit raiting you go with (this means your crit % raises over time as your crit from strength goes up). The crit raiting diminishing returns is the biggest factor in determining total crit so its accurite enough for most people.

 

Since we dont have the math for crit % yet i have looked at the graph and suggested about 250 raiting is right.

[paowee]

There are two approaches to this. the most accurite approach is to work out the best possible crit percentage and then raise or lower your crit raiting to maintain that percentage (last expansion this number was 32-33%). The advantage of being this accurite is that as you get more crit from strength you can drop crit raiting and replace with power producing the abo****e top DPS. The problem is it takes some clever maths to work it out.

 

The second approach is to look at the diminishing returns graph and mark the point there the crit raiting curve starts to flatten out. this is then the amount of crit raiting you go with (this means your crit % raises over time as your crit from strength goes up). The crit raiting diminishing returns is the biggest factor in determining total crit so its accurite enough for most people.

 

Since we dont have the math for crit % yet i have looked at the graph and suggested about 250 raiting is right.

Iirc a few weeks back during PTS, some math guys established that 20% was the "soft cap". Now i am not sure if this applies to most classes, but if that soft cap is true, then does that mean you want to go over 20% as Vigilance

EVEN if you will suffer from diminishing returns?

 

It would be great to see multiple parses like:

250 Crit Rating - 5 minutes - XXXX DPS

0 Crit Rating - 5 minutes - XXXX DPS

 

Ofcourse using the exact rotation and if possible the exact number of hits for each abilities.

Edited April 23, 2013 by paowee

[Mattmonkey]

Iirc a few weeks back during PTS, some math guys established that 20% was the "soft cap". Now i am not sure if this applies to most classes, but if that soft cap is true, then does that mean you want to go over 20% as Vigilance

EVEN if you will suffer from diminishing returns?

 

It would be great to see multiple parses like:

250 Crit Rating - 5 minutes - XXXX DPS

0 Crit Rating - 5 minutes - XXXX DPS

 

Ofcourse using the exact rotation and if possible the exact number of hits for each abilities.

 

Yep thats what we need to do - did it last expansion testing twice at each % crit on a mini roation (no master strike) for 5 min to get picture. i dont have the mods to keep the rest of my numbers the same yet still getting full gear set - so not easy to drop JUST crit by 250. will get there though.

[paowee]

Tried out this new Vigilance "Anni" rotation for the first time last night and ......and all i have to say is is:sul_mad:. Will definitely take some time to get used to.

 

I tried to keep all 3 DoTs up and using "fillers" when the dot abilities are all on cooldown. Fillers i used were:

 

DPS: MS, Dispatch

Rage gen: Sundering Assault, Saber Throw, Sweep, Auto-attack.

 

There seems to be no rotation at all now. What i noticed was sometimes, my 3 DoT abiltiies PB, OS and BS would all be on separate (rotating timers). Something like:

 

PB has 1 secs till activation, OS has 4 seconds till activation, BS has 2.5 seconds till activation.... It was great if i can do PB -> OS -> BS -> MS then OS again before PB comes up. But when i try to keep the 3 dot abilities on cooldown at the last second, there comes a point where i am using my DPS fillers IN BETWEEN my 3 DoT abilities. (-_-). There are also times when i miss using a Ravage because I try to give my dots a 100% uptime and that happens when the timers of PB oS and BS are "rotationg" and spread far apart each other. Hmm..

 

lol I had to change my skill bars so that i can see clearly the timers on the abilitiles:

PB [Q], OS [E], BS [R] only 3 abilities on the DOT bar, on the left half of my screen and scaled to like 1.15 and

Sundering Assault [1], MS [2], Dispatch [3], Saber Throw [4], Smash [5] on the filler bar, on the right side of my screen, also scaled up. >_<

 

Anyone tried using PB with Sundering Assault? They are both on a 12 second timer. And then using OS and BS together. lol.

 

Mauull wasn't kidding when he said the vigilance rotation was messed up.

Edited April 25, 2013 by paowee

[vadess]

Tried out this new Vigilance "Anni" rotation for the first time last night and ......and all i have to say is is:sul_mad:. Will definitely take some time to get used to.

 

I tried to keep all 3 DoTs up and using "fillers" when the dot abilities are all on cooldown. Fillers i used were:

 

DPS: MS, Dispatch

Rage gen: Sundering Assault, Saber Throw, Sweep, Auto-attack.

 

There seems to be no rotation at all now. What i noticed was sometimes, my 3 DoT abiltiies PB, OS and BS would all be on separate (rotating timers). Something like:

 

PB has 1 secs till activation, OS has 4 seconds till activation, BS has 2.5 seconds till activation.... It was great if i can do PB -> OS -> BS -> MS then OS again before PB comes up. But when i try to keep the 3 dot abilities on cooldown at the last second, there comes a point where i am using my DPS fillers IN BETWEEN my 3 DoT abilities. (-_-). There are also times when i miss using a Ravage because I try to give my dots a 100% uptime and that happens when the timers of PB oS and BS are "rotationg" and spread far apart each other. Hmm..

 

lol I had to change my skill bars so that i can see clearly the timers on the abilitiles:

PB [Q], OS [E], BS [R] only 3 abilities on the DOT bar, on the left half of my screen and scaled to like 1.15 and

Sundering Assault [1], MS [2], Dispatch [3], Saber Throw [4], Smash [5] on the filler bar, on the right side of my screen, also scaled up. >_<

 

Anyone tried using PB with Sundering Assault? They are both on a 12 second timer. And then using OS and BS together. lol.

 

Mauull wasn't kidding when he said the vigilance rotation was messed up.

 

LOL. I actually found this one to be more flowing than Maull's, and I actually think it was much more improved upon. To each their own I suppose.

[paowee]

LOL. I actually found this one to be more flowing than Maull's, and I actually think it was much more improved upon. To each their own I suppose.

 

How? >_< Before you can just keep PB, OS, BS on cooldown, use Ravage everytime it procs. Generate rage and use Force Charge instead of auto-attack. A more set rotation.

 

Now, you have 3 dots with different timers that do not align which basically changed Vigilance DPS into more of a priority system.

 

Dont mind me... i'm just culture shocked after my first vigilance attempt last night

Edited April 25, 2013 by paowee

[vadess]

How? >_< Before you can just keep PB, OS, BS on cooldown, use Ravage everytime it procs. Generate rage and use Force Charge instead of auto-attack. A more set rotation.

 

Now, you have 3 dots with different timers that do not align which basically changed Vigilance DPS into more of a priority system.

 

Dont mind me... i'm just culture shocked after my first vigilance attempt last night

 

It was a priority system before. If my damage percentages weren't allocated to the right moves, I wasn't doing it right. And I find it flows more in the sense that I am beginning to understand the mechanics better and how this guide explained things makes sense in regards to vengeance/viligiance.

 

Well, try it again and again before passing judgement on it. Believe me, it has greatly improved. Also, you might want to get to level 55 on your guardian before hanging out with the dummy as the level 55 dummy has a lot of defenses against level 50-54 peops.

[paowee]

It was a priority system before. If my damage percentages weren't allocated to the right moves, I wasn't doing it right. And I find it flows more in the sense that I am beginning to understand the mechanics better and how this guide explained things makes sense in regards to vengeance/viligiance.

 

Well, try it again and again before passing judgement on it. Believe me, it has greatly improved. Also, you might want to get to level 55 on your guardian before hanging out with the dummy as the level 55 dummy has a lot of defenses against level 50-54 peops.

 

I have a L55 "juggernaut". Yes ofcourse will be spending more time with it in the future. Just passing out my initial impressions after coming from 1.7 Last night there were times when I miss using the MS proc in order to keep the 3 DoT abilities on cooldown. Does this ever happen to you?

Edited April 25, 2013 by paowee

[Tarurelm]

Double post, damn Internet! Edited April 25, 2013 by Tarurelm

[Tarurelm]

Amazingly enough, I have come to love the new "Priority" type abilities. It has taken a few days to get use to but once I got in the habit of watching my bleeds and ensuring keeining is up before BS, it has all become second nature. I don't have the Saber Throw set bonus, I decided I don't need to add it in the rotation yet, but I do have the 2 piece MS boost set bonus still out DPS'n sentinals and having fun doing it!! I have been Vig since 1.1 and I can't be happier with the 2.0 improvements!!!!!

 

I've done some mixing around with enhancements and have found 22.25% crit is the sweet spot. Once I start augmenting to Might 28s ill be above 3k main stat and ill have more crit from STR then move some crit into surge and power. At 100.01% ACC and I never seem to have A miss anymore

[dipstik]

if alacrity isnt affecting the channel time and cool down of master strike it is a bug and should be reported.

[Mattmonkey]

Tried out this new Vigilance "Anni" rotation for the first time last night and ......and all i have to say is is:sul_mad:. Will definitely take some time to get used to.

 

I tried to keep all 3 DoTs up and using "fillers" when the dot abilities are all on cooldown. Fillers i used were:

 

DPS: MS, Dispatch

Rage gen: Sundering Assault, Saber Throw, Sweep, Auto-attack.

 

There seems to be no rotation at all now. What i noticed was sometimes, my 3 DoT abiltiies PB, OS and BS would all be on separate (rotating timers). Something like:

 

PB has 1 secs till activation, OS has 4 seconds till activation, BS has 2.5 seconds till activation.... It was great if i can do PB -> OS -> BS -> MS then OS again before PB comes up. But when i try to keep the 3 dot abilities on cooldown at the last second, there comes a point where i am using my DPS fillers IN BETWEEN my 3 DoT abilities. (-_-). There are also times when i miss using a Ravage because I try to give my dots a 100% uptime and that happens when the timers of PB oS and BS are "rotationg" and spread far apart each other. Hmm..

 

lol I had to change my skill bars so that i can see clearly the timers on the abilitiles:

PB [Q], OS [E], BS [R] only 3 abilities on the DOT bar, on the left half of my screen and scaled to like 1.15 and

Sundering Assault [1], MS [2], Dispatch [3], Saber Throw [4], Smash [5] on the filler bar, on the right side of my screen, also scaled up. >_<

 

Anyone tried using PB with Sundering Assault? They are both on a 12 second timer. And then using OS and BS together. lol.

 

Mauull wasn't kidding when he said the vigilance rotation was messed up.

 

Yea mate we aint in Kansas any more. The rotation is completly different.

 

I initially tried to put sunder and PB together and also OS and BS (made 2 macros) it works pritty good but you dont get to fit in the second OS which is the key to big DPS. Then i tried face role (use the ability thats ready to go) that was better than my 2 macros. then i created the priority list that make you use PB evertime it cools down and OS every time it cools down - yes you use BS and MS a little less. but makeing PB ans OS top priority produces the best DPS i found so long as you use MS & Dispatch when you have a window.

[arkitip]

It's just a priority system, same as before although yes it feels less rotational and more situational. I prioritize my burns over MS/Dispatch unless I could potentially waste a Zen Strike or Keening proc by not using them in time. I also try to not "waste" a Force Rush stack i.e. I try to burn BS before using PB/OS/Dispatch if I have 2 stacks already.

 

If you look@my 2554 parse, you'll note the only "filler" I use is the same stuff we always did, except I found a spot where I used Slash 1 time. I have the 2 piece Sentinel bonus now and 1/2 Guardian. When I'm 2/2 I might use Slash more often because right now I'm still doing the whole run out for Saber Throw and leap back in. With the set bonus I'll eliminate that which frees up a GCD here and there.

[Mattmonkey]

It's just a priority system, same as before although yes it feels less rotational and more situational. I prioritize my burns over MS/Dispatch unless I could potentially waste a Zen Strike or Keening proc by not using them in time. I also try to not "waste" a Force Rush stack i.e. I try to burn BS before using PB/OS/Dispatch if I have 2 stacks already.

 

If you look@my 2554 parse, you'll note the only "filler" I use is the same stuff we always did, except I found a spot where I used Slash 1 time. I have the 2 piece Sentinel bonus now and 1/2 Guardian. When I'm 2/2 I might use Slash more often because right now I'm still doing the whole run out for Saber Throw and leap back in. With the set bonus I'll eliminate that which frees up a GCD here and there.

 

nah before it was a symetrical rotation (well 3 mini rotations actually) but dosent matter we got a system more like sentianl now. its OK - what you are doing is the same as described in the guide above.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Mattmonkey

[arkitip]

nah before it was a symetrical rotation (well 3 mini rotations actually) but dosent matter we got a system more like sentianl now. its OK - what you are doing is the same as described in the guide above.

 

Honestly, it was just priority based before but stricter and the CDs on things matched, making it rotational. The highest parsing Guardian/Jugg in the game didn't follow your 3 mini rotations strategy and didn't wait for PBs DoT to expire before reapplying.

 

Also, currently it makes very little difference to prioritize PB on CD, so if it gets pushed back to get a 2 stack BS in there or whatever, it doesn't really effect your DPS at all.

[Mattmonkey]

Also, currently it makes very little difference to prioritize PB on CD, so if it gets pushed back to get a 2 stack BS in there or whatever, it doesn't really effect your DPS at all.

 

agree it ticks once everey 4 seconds so if you hit it 1 GCD later its like half a tick so half of 900 or 1300 internal damage. not a lot given eyou might do it once a min or so.