Pyro 2.0?

[HexDecimalUK]

I have read that pyro has been nerfed in some way including a change to thermal det, does this mean it does less damage or is it infact just more of a DOT than a spike class?

[odawgg]

I'm an arsenal so I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe the damage was actually slightly increased, however it was converted to mostly DoT rather than instant....so yeah less bursty.

 

There was a nerft to CGC but only compared to PTS before and after the nerf...Pyro has actually been buffed overall compared to what it currently is on Live, just not as good as it was before the nerf during testing

Edited April 5, 2013 by odawgg

[Phrase]

We're a full DoT spec now. If you decide to play Pyro, stack heavy Aim and Power as your stat priority. Alacrity might make an interesting third stat, but I didn't test enough to see what it does for heat dumping. In fact, I'll probably still stick with Surge as my third.

 

Edit: There is still the small burst rotation of IM>Explosive>Rail>Unload>Rail, but the 1.7 iteration of Thermal Detonator stacked with Explosive is what really made that rotation work.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Phrase

[oaceen]

I have read that pyro has been nerfed in some way including a change to thermal det, does this mean it does less damage or is it infact just more of a DOT than a spike class?

 

thermal detonator's overall damage was increased, but half of it was moved into a 12s DoT

 

 

(from memory, so some of it may be a little off) on test before the change, it did a little under 4k in a single

after the change, it did roughly 2.5k in a single hit then put a 12s DoT that ticks for another 2k (elemental damage)

another point to note is that the burn benefits from the +30% increase if the target is below 30% as well as the 30% crit multiplier, so it can do quite a bit of damage during dispatch phases.

 

 

the way CGC works now is you have a much greater chance of triggering it (34% up from 16%), and the damage was reduced by about 50% (i don't recall what it was before the change, but it did somewhere around 1k over 6s)

so it triggers much more often, does less damage.

 

 

at the very least, it's definitely more of a DoT spec and quite a bit of the burst was moved away (except for the extra burn on targets below 30%), but i wasn't able to really test it to tell if it was an overall nerf in damage or not because of a bug that made a few characters perpetually stuck in a loading screen, by the time it was fixed for me, PTS shut down a few days later.

[HexDecimalUK]

so its gunna be cc, thermal det, dart, fusion-thermal, rail shot, net, LOS or kite with CGC while they burn to death and maybe a few MBs to help it along not forgetting the rail shot resets the burn effects. Got it ;D (at least till a shaddow sheds it all off but

[Macroeconomics]

the way CGC works now is you have a much greater chance of triggering it (34% up from 16%), and the damage was reduced by about 50% (i don't recall what it was before the change, but it did somewhere around 1k over 6s)

so it triggers much more often, does less damage.

 

This is incorrect. There was a 16% chance of CGC triggering per HIT, not per ability useage. Since Rapid Shots actually consisted of about 8 hits (on average), the chance of triggering CGC in 1.7 was actually around 85%. Now that goes to around 97%. But the damage is down by 50%. That is not good. Moreover the way CGC is refreshed also got nerfed (although whether this is unintended or another intended stealth nerf is uncertain). The bottom line is that for a good Merc Pyro, CGC will actually be on your target LESS OFTEN and do half the damage it previously did when it is on. Add to that the changes to pvp relics in 2.0 which specifically hurt Merc dps and 2.0 is a huge nerf.

 

so its gunna be cc, thermal det, dart, fusion-thermal, rail shot, net, LOS or kite with CGC while they burn to death and maybe a few MBs to help it along not forgetting the rail shot resets the burn effects. Got it ;D (at least till a shaddow sheds it all off but

 

There are a lot of problems here. No one is going to let you sit back and cast Concussion Missile. You need to insta cast it. And Power Surge is on a 2 min CD. Moreover by placing burn abilities on the target so early in the process, you basically eliminate the chance of using a stun grenade.You cc a melee right from the start and the smart melee will eat that and save his cc breaker for your your Electro Dart. And even if you do insta cast Concussion Missile you got maybe 5k of damage head start on him - so what? He's gonna hit you for 7k with his first smash.

 

If you want to play Merc Pyro in 2.0, you must change your attitude that this is a sit back and shoot at range class. Merc pyro got HEAVILY nerfed in 2.0. To make it work you must focus on the changes that were positive. And I don't mean Electro Dart. That's a one trick pony on a long CD that is easily negated by any good melee.

 

The good things that happened to Merc Pyro are Degauss and Jet Rebounder. Degauss was not useful in 1.7 because it was linked to Energy Shield. And you needed that up before the big attacks hit, not after. Now that Degauss is on Chaff Flare you basically get two de-root/de-snaring abilities. Use them. Jet Rebounder is going to allow you to have access to a knockback for pretty much every 1v1 engagement if you handle it correctly. But using it consumes a huge amount of the available resolve on your enemy. That's another reason why using Concussion Missile right from the start is dubious.

[HexDecimalUK]

i always surge my CC and the timed explosives go off in time with the fusion and incendiary although the electro net will likely replace concussion and it is allot of dots that you can stack up on someone before the CC is broken by the fusion and incendiary combo, more i believe than 5k. but the real problem is in heat management, needless to say the pyro merc trips itself up here. long story short arsenal is better you get more cc immunity from the hydro override so you dont need the degauss chaff and instead chaff blocks incoming tech/force attacks so you can save it for when something is getting cast upon you. the root rocket punch is another sweet kiting tool and the additional heat management is great for putting out some last clutch missile blasts. I think it probably is possible for an expert to make exceptional use of pyro but as Ive said a good sin, will just shed the dots and eat you before you get a single cool-down back.

 

im seeing that pryo can be a powerful AC but in a rock paper scissors aspect meaning your done if a concealment op or deception sin and maybe a couple others walk along and arsenal is more versatile spec if you know how to kite.

[yoomazir]

To everybody, don't bother with pyro for pve and maybe even for pvp, the nerf in the proc dmg and Thermal Detonator doesn't make it viable anymore.

[HexDecimalUK]

ive been trying to use it again, its got alot of futile utilitys such as the flar unroot, hellooo we have hydro overide now so thats pointless and the damaging shield and jetboost? why? this is nothing! swearing at my screen does more damage than these and if a merc is caught in CQC he is done! we shouldn't even have a shield since we have heavy armour just give the merc a real IMS already fly backwards or even an intercede how hard is that? why cant BW just get it through their skulls that mercs need real IMS and not a bunch of cheap tricks. go arsenal man pyro is a mess.

[Macroeconomics]

To everybody, don't bother with pyro for pve and maybe even for pvp, the nerf in the proc dmg and Thermal Detonator doesn't make it viable anymore.

 

Merc Pyro was never viable in either pve or pvp - some expert players just stuck to it and perservered using skill to overcome the handicaps.

[yoomazir]

Merc Pyro was never viable in either pve or pvp - some expert players just stuck to it and perservered using skill to overcome the handicaps.

 

What I mean is that the spec is worse now.

[Macroeconomics]

What I mean is that the spec is worse now.

 

Of that there is no doubt. No one contests this. Except the devs. They still thought Merc Pyro was OP in 1.7 so it needed another nerf in 2.0.

[HexDecimalUK]

figured i would really try and stick it out and learn it, and actually, there is something in there, like i said apply the burn and kite away i think the real saving grace for it is that missle blast is less heat and procs the rapid shot slow effect and then when there on 30% flame thrower GG, but IMO just to complete it they should give flame sweep to that tree maybe replace jet boost animation? but also add the powertech's flame sweep FS damage to the knock back? i dunno its there it just feels like something is lacking

[Macroeconomics]

figured i would really try and stick it out and learn it, and actually, there is something in there, like i said apply the burn and kite away i think the real saving grace for it is that missle blast is less heat and procs the rapid shot slow effect and then when there on 30% flame thrower GG, but IMO just to complete it they should give flame sweep to that tree maybe replace jet boost animation? but also add the powertech's flame sweep FS damage to the knock back? i dunno its there it just feels like something is lacking

 

What is lacking is burst damage. And sustained damage. And if you can't do either then....

[Choffware]

What is lacking is burst damage. And sustained damage. And if you can't do either then....

 

Macro you seem to be making a bunch of statements that don't line up with my experience so far... I'm not trying to pick a fight just want wrap my head around why what you are saying (which seems well thought out and logical) is not matched up with what I'm seeing... I've experimented with arsenal and pyro and for overall dps they both seem to be similar with arsenal slightly ahead and arsenal slightly ahead in burst also. But pyro still seems more mobile and has plenty of burst. RS, UL, RS timed with the two sticky bombs... does a lot of burst. Plus with the extra dots when the targets is under 30% seems to be pyros bead and butter

 

Are you actually playing these specs or are you going by the numbers? I'm also not at 55 yet so it could simply be that... but I'm playing against lots of players with equal gear as myself with the new bolster so I'm hoping there isn't a huge disparity at 55..

[HexDecimalUK]

the dot takes too long to tick so unless your backing up 3 or 4 decent DD players and have a pro healer behind you, you dont last. like i said its there all right but missing that vital punch.

[odawgg]

delete Edited April 24, 2013 by odawgg

[HexDecimalUK]

Ok so I'm not a pyro as I've stated before...but...I did experiment on PTS after the nerf, before it shut down and these were my parses on a dummy:

 

Arsenal:

Gear: Full Arkanian, used nano-infused adrenals/stim, DG relics, "1.7 augments"

2660 dps

 

Pyro:

Gear: Full Arkanian, used nano-infused adrenals/stim, DG relics, "2.0 augments"

2567 dps

 

*Now, add 2.0 augments to the arsenal and it would top out around 2700 dps.

 

Now figure in armor penetration if you're running with a sniper/arsenal merc/jugg tank. And add in the final 30% burn added damage. I've been told you can add about 6% damage given these factors, putting pyro at 2721 dps. Now add in the fact that I'm not even a pyro, I'm confident that the arsenal parse listed above is pushing the limits....But I only spent a couple hours, new to pyro spec, on the dummy to get that number. Please explain to me how Pyro is not viable for "PVE" given this data. I'm also not picking a fight, I would just like some light shed on it because I was excited to try pyro in PVE in 2.0 thinking mercs would finally get some variety.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Heat management, you're welcome.

[odawgg]

Heat management, you're welcome.

 

With all due respect, that doesn't answer anything

 

If a player is incapable of managing heat, the merc is not the right class for them. I've just shown legitimate dps numbers at that gear level that show (at least I think, this is the question I'm asking) pyro spec to be viable. QoL nerf to heat management only affects the dps of a player that is unable to do it. Cuz that's all that happened, a QoL nerf, not a damage nerf. And this happened to both Arsenal and Pyro. In fact, I would argue Pyro got a damage buff, I don't recall pyro being able to pull even close to arsenal in 1.7 in PVE.

 

So if a non-troll (ironic that the OP would troll someone who is trying to ask the same question he did) would shed some light on how the data in my post makes pyro unviable, please share your thoughts.

Edited April 19, 2013 by odawgg

[Macroeconomics]

Macro you seem to be making a bunch of statements that don't line up with my experience so far... I'm not trying to pick a fight just want wrap my head around why what you are saying (which seems well thought out and logical) is not matched up with what I'm seeing... I've experimented with arsenal and pyro and for overall dps they both seem to be similar with arsenal slightly ahead and arsenal slightly ahead in burst also. But pyro still seems more mobile and has plenty of burst. RS, UL, RS timed with the two sticky bombs... does a lot of burst. Plus with the extra dots when the targets is under 30% seems to be pyros bead and butter

 

I'm pretty sure I was the first or at least one of the first Merc Pyros to hit valor 100. I regularly hit 800k damage with the build. I've played it to death. Literally. It is dead to me now. Could I still get to 800k damage with the platform? Sure - overall numbers are all higher now. But it is inferior to every other dps subclass in the game. Why bother spending all that effort to avoid enemies and time the feeble defensive skills you have to get 800k, when I can play a Jugg or Assassin and get 50% more damage output and a helluva lot fewer deaths. And be a Huttball champ.

 

Can you still play a normal wz and do great with a Merc Pyro? Sure, if your opponents are measurably worse than you are. But at a certain point one tires of winning only vs. low grade opponents and one wants to compete with players of similar skill. You can't do that with Merc Pyro. With Merc Arsenal it is barely possible now, but won't be for long once enemy players adjust to the different tactics they are facing. Our only hope is that enough people start playing Merc Arsenal that the meta averages for the subclass drop and we get another set of buffs in 2.1. It's possible. I do see other Merc Arsenal occasionally now.

[HexDecimalUK]

With all due respect, that doesn't answer anything

 

If a player is incapable of managing heat, the merc is not the right class for them. I've just shown legitimate dps numbers at that gear level that show (at least I think, this is the question I'm asking) pyro spec to be viable. QoL nerf to heat management only affects the dps of a player that is unable to do it. Cuz that's all that happened, a QoL nerf, not a damage nerf. And this happened to both Arsenal and Pyro. In fact, I would argue Pyro got a damage buff, I don't recall pyro being able to pull even close to arsenal in 1.7 in PVE.

 

So if a non-troll (ironic that the OP would troll someone who is trying to ask the same question he did) would shed some light on how the data in my post makes pyro unviable, please share your thoughts.

 

you asked, i answered. and thread has progressed since the OP. the class is capable no doubt but has a very low ceiling. i dont think you actually can use all your abilities in a tight row without venting heat. the worst part and the bit that made me (a long time pyro fan) want to thump my screen was loosing the shield reset, why? Arsenal now has all these great kiting tools and the fire class that relies on staying alive while your target burns to death gets none of it. all while your to over heated to lay on further DD attacks or kite back with the missile blast procs, in short i need that shield back asap! !!!. know how often i use my shield in WZs? NEVER because i can LOS or just kite like a legend because arsenal has that utility, like i said Pyro you get to throw in some DOTs and then your overheated and get ripped apart, i realized its futility when i found myself deliberately dying to reset my heat bar and come back fighting again instead of just trying to get out with the HO so i can stand with my thumb up my *** waiting to fight again, id rather play WZs with the 1.7 build. TY for nering mercs further BW.

[odawgg]

you asked, i answered.

 

I apprediate you at least trying to elaborate but my question was specifically for PVE, PVP utility rarely comes into play in operations.

[Choffware]

I'm pretty sure I was the first or at least one of the first Merc Pyros to hit valor 100. I regularly hit 800k damage with the build. I've played it to death. Literally. It is dead to me now. Could I still get to 800k damage with the platform? Sure - overall numbers are all higher now. But it is inferior to every other dps subclass in the game. Why bother spending all that effort to avoid enemies and time the feeble defensive skills you have to get 800k, when I can play a Jugg or Assassin and get 50% more damage output and a helluva lot fewer deaths. And be a Huttball champ.

 

Can you still play a normal wz and do great with a Merc Pyro? Sure, if your opponents are measurably worse than you are. But at a certain point one tires of winning only vs. low grade opponents and one wants to compete with players of similar skill. You can't do that with Merc Pyro. With Merc Arsenal it is barely possible now, but won't be for long once enemy players adjust to the different tactics they are facing. Our only hope is that enough people start playing Merc Arsenal that the meta averages for the subclass drop and we get another set of buffs in 2.1. It's possible. I do see other Merc Arsenal occasionally now.

 

Can't disagree with anything you said... The main reason I had trouble in RWZ was that I couldn't stand still long enough to get my DPS ramped up and was way to easy to kill... 2.0 addresses that both pretty well. KO and HO are pretty darn good defensive cool downs... so I have a lot more hope than you I guess. Mercs are not an easy kill anymore IMHO unless there is a big gear gap or skill gap... but I'll see when we I get there (RWZ) I'm still going to bring my Marauder to 55 and do rated with him first before taking the plunge. So I guess I haven't really 100% convinced my self

[HexDecimalUK]

I apprediate you at least trying to elaborate but my question was specifically for PVE, PVP utility rarely comes into play in operations.

 

PVE? same issue, infacxt pyro is impossible vs mobs because you just overheat strait away TD, INC, Railshot, unload its goin well untill you gotta shoot out some missile blasts or fire off some AOEs youl get 2 maybe 3 out and your done, and wont get your bar back for a long time.

[odawgg]

PVE? same issue, infacxt pyro is impossible vs mobs because you just overheat strait away TD, INC, Railshot, unload its goin well untill you gotta shoot out some missile blasts or fire off some AOEs youl get 2 maybe 3 out and your done, and wont get your bar back for a long time.

 

missile blast might be your prob then, from what i'm reading it's too much heat to have in your priority system (unless maybe if you're at close to zero heat with nothing else better to fire off), use rapid shots instead, i didn't use any missile blasts in my parse. As far as AoE goes, you need to save Vent heat if you know AoE is coming up soon, or if its not up, cycle in rapid shots...sustained DPS over entire fight will go up this way and will compete with any spec in the game. This is assuming that Pyro gets a 6% raid damage buff due to armor debuff and final 30% damage boosts, which I haven't verified but am told from respected pyro specs it's true.

 

Heat mgmt is the toughest thing to get used to in 2.0 but it's combatable if you stay disciplined cycling in rapid shots when necessary.

Edited April 19, 2013 by odawgg