Nightkin Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Ok so with the changes to tanking and shields in 2.0 you will be able to shield/absorb and...defend against tech attacks, so my dreaded question... If someone, lets say 1 of the 28743847 jedis/sith you meet in warzones pops his or hers saberward, will that give saberward and thus that player 60% ~ chance to deflect all tech/force attacks for the duration? Earlier defence was just against white damage but with the upcoming changes i wondered if Defence now handles itself in the same manner as shield does. If this would be true, you will almost never win a 1vs1 against someone with saberward up unless you have saberward yourself or waste alot of pointless cc to lock that player down. If Force Shroud (assassin 100% immunity vs tech/force for 3 seconds) is so horrible OP, then isnt 60 ~% immunity for 12 seconds even worse? Please tell me i have missunderstood all this, or i will be forced to roll a jug just to be able to compete in warzones or dueling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Ok so with the changes to tanking and shields in 2.0 you will be able to shield/absorb and...defend against tech attacks, so my dreaded question... If someone, lets say 1 of the 28743847 jedis/sith you meet in warzones pops his or hers saberward, will that give saberward and thus that player 60% ~ chance to deflect all tech/force attacks for the duration? Earlier defence was just against white damage but with the upcoming changes i wondered if Defence now handles itself in the same manner as shield does. combat is still made up of avoidance and mitigation. Changing the shield mechanics does not change the fact that for avoidance: range & melee hit/miss chance : accuracy - defenseforce & tech hit/miss chance: accuracy - resistance If this would be true, you will almost never win a 1vs1 against someone with saberward up unless you have saberward yourself or waste alot of pointless cc to lock that player down. If Force Shroud (assassin 100% immunity vs tech/force for 3 seconds) is so horrible OP, then isnt 60 ~% immunity for 12 seconds even worse? Resilience / Force Shroud is not over powered. If that ability bothers you be sure not to look at Guarded by the Force / Undying Rage. MM Sniper's big attacks are ranged (not tech) so they are not affected by Force Shroud. PRO TIP: if you think a particular class / spec is over powered, roll one and PvP with it. The good players on your server will soon teach you what the weaknesses of the "OP class" are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Beers Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Ok so with the changes to tanking and shields in 2.0 you will be able to shield/absorb and...defend against tech attacks, so my dreaded question... If someone, lets say 1 of the 28743847 jedis/sith you meet in warzones pops his or hers saberward, will that give saberward and thus that player 60% ~ chance to deflect all tech/force attacks for the duration? Earlier defence was just against white damage but with the upcoming changes i wondered if Defence now handles itself in the same manner as shield does. If this would be true, you will almost never win a 1vs1 against someone with saberward up unless you have saberward yourself or waste alot of pointless cc to lock that player down. If Force Shroud (assassin 100% immunity vs tech/force for 3 seconds) is so horrible OP, then isnt 60 ~% immunity for 12 seconds even worse? Please tell me i have missunderstood all this, or i will be forced to roll a jug just to be able to compete in warzones or dueling No, the tool tip for Saber Ward says 60% increased defense against melee/ranged and reduces damage from Force/tech by 25%. All the change means is tech/Force attacks will also roll against your shield chance as well instead of passing straight through them. Saber Ward is a damage reduction for force/tech it doesn't say anywhere increased defense chance. However I would imagine this would make it very tough to kill tanks while this is up as you would have to go through their shields and even then once you did damage would then be mitigated by armor if applicable and then reduced by Saber Ward. Also not everyone can use a shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightkin Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 You guys seem to have missed my point, so i must have explained it poorly. To the second poster, im not talking about force shroud being OP. Its the general opinion about that skill. I have 7 rank 50s by now and close to finishing my 8th so i know all about every possible skill in this game. What my whole rant was about, was - In 2.0, will defence apply vs tech/force since shielding mechanics is being changed? And if so- will saberward be utterly insanely good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryRow Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 You will not be able to defend against force/tech, but you can resist force/tech. However, no one has any appreciable resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightkin Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 Ok thank you that lays it all to rest, cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Beers Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 You guys seem to have missed my point, so i must have explained it poorly. To the second poster, im not talking about force shroud being OP. Its the general opinion about that skill. I have 7 rank 50s by now and close to finishing my 8th so i know all about every possible skill in this game. What my whole rant was about, was - In 2.0, will defence apply vs tech/force since shielding mechanics is being changed? And if so- will saberward be utterly insanely good? I don't think you understand how shields work. Defense doesn't apply to Shield rating. Shield rating does. Defense determines whether or not you miss or the attack is avoided. If the attack is shielded (which is determined by the Shield rating on the players gear not Defense rating) it is then run through the players Absorb rating to determine how much of the damage has been mitigated. So what will happen in 2.0 when a player that has a shield equipped and has popped Ward Ward is a targeted by a Tech ability such as Project is as follows: - If the ability is a crit it will pass through any avoidance/shield mechanics and be mitigated by the 25% dmg reduction form Saber Ward and Armor as it is a Force attack that deals kinetic damage. - It's a Force attack so defense doesn't come into play here. - Now it will be rolled against the players shield chance. If the shield is successful it will then go to the players absorb rating to see how much of the damage is mitigated. - Now that damage will be reduced by a flat 25% from Saber Ward. Saber Ward being active has no effect on whether or not the attack will be shielded. It will simply reduce the damage by 25%. Once again not everyone uses a shield. It's a pretty big DPS loss for a 5% chance to shield an attack for a DPS specced player. Now as for tanks that decide to use a shield in PvP now, yes they will be harder to kill. However while it may be difficult to kill them for the shield to be useful they will have to stack at least a little shield/absorb. This will mean they are doing less damage because they aren't stacking power/surge/crit. Shields also have a lower base tech/force power than generators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) ... So what will happen in 2.0 when a player that has a shield equipped and has popped Ward Ward is a targeted by a Tech ability such as Project is as follows: - If the ability is a crit it will pass through any avoidance/shield mechanics and be mitigated by the 25% dmg reduction form Saber Ward and Armor as it is a Force attack that deals kinetic damage. I applaud your going into details. Now for some nitpicking: in the 2 roll system SWTOR uses, hit/miss is the first roll, crit/regular/shield is the second roll. If crit chance + shield chance > 100% then shield chance is modified to be 100% - crit chance. (Hence the phrase "crit pushes shield off the table" when we proc a 100% crit chance). Also, crits bypass shield but not armor mitigation. (you did not state the contrary, I'm just mentioning this for clarity) In the above text you imply that a crit causes avoidance to fail. In practice, crits always do hit but that is because the hit/miss roll has succeeded before we attempt the crit roll. This really is nitpicking but it may help confused people if they get this straight. - It's a Force attack so defense doesn't come into play here. right. For force/tech attacks, resistance is the avoidance stat used, not defense. No players have any (?) resistance unless they get it temporarily from a defensive cooldown (e.g. resilience / force shroud) Taugrim and others have done nice write ups on the basics of combat. If anyone finds the above confusing I recommend you find one of these and read it. (TANGENT: whey do they call it a 2 roll system? Isn't there a 3rd roll to determine the exact amount of damage dealt?) Edited April 4, 2013 by funkiestj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ybini Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) (TANGENT: whey do they call it a 2 roll system? Isn't there a 3rd roll to determine the exact amount of damage dealt?) I think the hit/miss is Damage vs No damage where the base damage value is calculated, second roll are modifiers is why its two. Edited April 4, 2013 by Ybini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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