Andrew_Past Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) Quote from this thread on the Jugg forums: I agree that Vengeance needs a boost in mobility in a post-2.0 environment. On live, Vengeance has enough mobility. However, with almost every other spec and class getting mobility boosts, Vengeance needs something to keep up. I've always thought that a 15% passive speed boost would fit Vengeance perfectly. I believe that the ideal solution will involve adding in a passive speed boost and adding either a ranged root/snare to one of Vengeance's attacks or effects, or adding in a mechanic to reliably reset or reduce the CD of Force Charge. Seething Hatred is indeed a useless talent for any high end content. Vengeance's role is to be a resilient primary DPS that puts heavy pressure on important targets. This requires it to be in the middle of a main fight constantly. So, it will very rarely get out of combat, especially when using taunts like you're suppose to. I think BW's intent was to allow Vengeance some sort of improved mobility with this talent, but failed to understand how little it would be used in group fights. Passive Speed Boost: Like I said, I've always thought that a 15% passive speed boost would fit Vengeance perfectly. It is the only middle tree melee DPS spec that does not get a passive speed boost. Carnage, Deception, Concealment, and Advanced Prototype all get speed boosts. And they still have ranged roots or snares to compliment that. Vengeance has neither. I believe that a passive speed boost needs to happen. It would fit perfectly with Vengeance, as Vengeance relies on melee attacks more than most specs. Adding in a 15% speed boost effect to Deadly Reprisal would work out great, as it is already tied to Shien form. Seething Hatred Rework: What BioWare could do with Seething Hatred is tie a Force Charge and Saber throw reset to one of our procs. So, Seething Hatred would now reset Force Charge, Saber Throw, and possibly reduce CD on Enrage whenever we proc Ravage reset. Alternatively, the effect could be tied to whenever we proc free Vicious Throw. The first option would give us Force Charge when we want to use it again, right when we have another Force Charge ready. This option would flow beautifully with the playstyle of Vengeance, and make it a seriously dangerous threat in warzones that opponents can't ignore anymore. However, given the fact that it would give us more frequent Unstoppables, it might be a bit much. Personally, I think it would be fine considering how many classes and specs have root breaks now. The second option would give us Force Charge again in situations when we're being kited (the proc can activate off of bleeds). However, with a 20s ICD, it may not happen as much as we'd like. Still, it would help in a lot of different situations, and helps us stay on targets and do our jobs. It would also make sure we have the 10% damage boost from using Force Charge available for Vicious Throw. Ranged Root or Snare: Another possibility is adding in some sort of ranged root or snare to Vengeance. The best candidate would be Force Scream. It is our main mid-ranged attack. Tying a 2s root to it would help us stay on target nicely and add even more group utility. However, a root may be too strong. Instead, adding a 50% snare to the bleed effect from Force Scream might be a more balanced approach. Another option is have Sundering Throw lower Saber Throw's CD even more to either 15s or 20s and tie a 9-12s snare to it in addition to the sunder stack. Summary: Vengeance is finally in a good place damage wise for PVP, and has a lot of good utility to bring to a team. However, every other class getting great mobility boosts while Vengeance gets none will make life difficult for Vengeance players. Only the very best Vengeance players will be able to stay on targets reliably if no changes are made. To help rectify this, BioWare needs to add a passive speed boost above everything else. There's no question about this. It needs to happen. Even with the speed boost, Vengeance should have another tool to be able to stay on target. It can be a Force Charge reset, a ranged root, a snare added to our damage rotation, or something else that hasn't been brought up yet. This topic I feel should be discussed on the PVP forums because that's where 2.0 Vig/Veng will be lacking mobility wise. Pretty much every other class has received mobility buffs in 2.0 except Vig/Veng. The point of these suggestions are to bring mobility on par with other classes. My intent is not to overpower. Which is why I would like this topic discussed on the PVP forums. Edited March 28, 2013 by Andrew_Past
LarryRow Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 Unstoppable should be a Tier 1 rage talent then. I think he was looking for sane suggestions. You have to admit that the rage tree is pretty stacked for snaring. I'd be happy with some love to Freezing Force in Vigilance. Right now you can make it free and have a 1s gcd with 7 points in defense. I don't know how many are choosing that but it's there. Something similar in 2.0 would be nice. Maybe modify Narrowed Focus to reduce the GCD of Freezing force by .5s for 1 point? Something to address how much dps we will lose if we have to hit freezing force after every leap->masterstrike
Xerain Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 I think he was looking for sane suggestions. You have to admit that the rage tree is pretty stacked for snaring. I'd be happy with some love to Freezing Force in Vigilance. Right now you can make it free and have a 1s gcd with 7 points in defense. I don't know how many are choosing that but it's there. Something similar in 2.0 would be nice. Maybe modify Narrowed Focus to reduce the GCD of Freezing force by .5s for 1 point? Something to address how much dps we will lose if we have to hit freezing force after every leap->masterstrike Oh spending the rage to snare someone isn't an option huh? *rolls eyes*
Monterone Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) *dps sorc raises hand* Speaking of making mobility even on all classes... How bout just adding root break and immunity to Force Speed as base, so it functions like all other gap closers/makers in the game. When Force Speed cannot be rooted, like a leap, or an HO or a Roll, then we will be at a good starting point to talk about evening them out a bit more and polishing it. Currently, a Charge with Unremitting is 100x dps sorc Force Speed. Edited March 28, 2013 by Monterone
LarryRow Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 Oh spending the rage to snare someone isn't an option huh? *rolls eyes* If you read my suggestion again you'll see that I didn't mention decreasing the focus cost. Just the GCD. In my experience, that tree is doing just fine for resources. I didn't test the reworked Sundering Strike, but just knowing how Shien form works, I'm not too worried about it.
LarryRow Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 When Force Speed cannot be rooted, like a leap You know we can't leap when rooted, right?
Monterone Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 You know we can't leap when rooted, right? Of course, I didn't say Charge broke roots as well, that's Obliterate.
Capt_Beers Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 Isn't there a reset for Charge built into Push? And I'm pretty sure the increased mobility for Veng/Vig. comes that 4 seconds of CC/Snare/Root immunity after Charge. If you could reset that any more often than the 15 sec CD it has plus the reset from Push it would start getting a little ridiculous how often they would be immune to any form of movement impairment.
Keldaur Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 Oh spending the rage to snare someone isn't an option huh? *rolls eyes* The GCD pal, the GCD.
Xerain Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) Nothing to see here... Between leap and intercede how do juggs not have mobility for 2.0? You can compare a 1v1 situation all day but in the end that doesn't matter. Edited March 28, 2013 by Xerain
piSith Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 Nothing to see here... Between leap and intercede how do juggs not have mobility for 2.0? You can compare a 1v1 situation all day but in the end that doesn't matter. ^^This. But in all honesty this doesn't seem to be a mobility problem. Seems to be a "lockdown" problem. From what I've seen the issue is not mobility, as Jug we are more jump friendly than our Mara brethen, we also have an AOE snare to boost. What's needed here is something to hold the target down...... which, in terms, is directly affected by our "run speed". A built-in slow or short root is what's needed, not the movement. Imagine a Jug with Unstoppable that runs 30% faster... I don't know about you but that would be hilariously OP.
Okod Posted March 29, 2013 Posted March 29, 2013 With the snare on bleed/DoT do you see that being the full duration of the DoT? I'm feeling that might be a bit OTT as, I think, when talented scream/blade storm is on a 9s CD with a 6s DoT - so 6s snare every 9s... Perhaps a 2s snare on scream/storm, separate from the DoT. Or reset Leap on scream/storm crit? Lower crit chance I hear, so to guarantee it we'd need the PB/OHS combo - if we're interrupted or kited before getting them in, no reset for us. Maybe? 15% passive could work, Mara/Sent get it in their middle tree so it's no unheard of, though Jugg/Guard do get leap reset on Push as mentioned. (all above should be taken with a grain of salt, I'm still a 'lowbie' 30 Vigilance spec Guardian, and never got to try PTS, but it's some thoughts)
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