Erked.

[XuShaBi]

I just cannot believe that people would argue in favour of EAware here.

 

It is like they are asking to be taken advantage of and then saying 'thank-you, would you like any more?'

 

Nonsensical at best, naieve certainly, EAware must be rubbing its paws together at a lot of peoples collective stupidity.

 

So people are naive for wanting to buy vanity stuff, formed by digital pixels, with real money? Then does it make all subscribers naive? After all, we are paying subscription to be able to wear artifact gear etc.

 

The real nonsensical part is that people are drawing arbitrary line between subscription fee and paying for CM coins with real money. The entire thread is filled with argument that all benefits associated with subscription fee is fair and not Pay2Win however anything to do with CM coins is not. In reality, we are spending real money for both. The only big inequality I can see is that those who have larger real money budget are able to enjoy more stuff. But that is just a fact of life.

[AlienEyeTX]

I just cannot believe that people would argue in favour of EAware here.

 

It is like they are asking to be taken advantage of and then saying 'thank-you, would you like any more?'

 

Nonsensical at best, naieve certainly, EAware must be rubbing its paws together at a lot of peoples collective stupidity.

 

What you call "stupidity," other people call "entertainment."

[Levity]

So people are naive for wanting to buy vanity stuff, formed by digital pixels, with real money? Then does it make all subscribers naive? After all, we are paying subscription to be able to wear artifact gear etc.

 

The real nonsensical part is that people are drawing arbitrary line between subscription fee and paying for CM coins with real money. The entire thread is filled with argument that all benefits associated with subscription fee is fair and not Pay2Win however anything to do with CM coins is not. In reality, we are spending real money for both. The only big inequality I can see is that those who have larger real money budget are able to enjoy more stuff. But that is just a fact of life.

 

You must have not read the thread because there's a lot of other arguments aside from that. But hey if you want to generalize to try and make your point sound better go for it.

[XuShaBi]

Person buys game, person plays the game until lvl 10, person buys multiple cartel pack bundles ( you can make over 10 million on my server with one i.e 350k each pack) person buys end game gear and doesnt even have level enough to have a legacy. Pay2win

 

From your definition of Pay2Win then technically any MMO is Pay2Win. Why? You can pay people to power level you and raid for gear etc. The common sense definition of Pay2Win is that the developers aren't offering high end gear directly for real money. There is always a way for players to pay for high end gear through other players' help in any MMO. Hence your argument is mute.

[XuShaBi]

You must have not read the thread because there's a lot of other arguments aside from that. But hey if you want to generalize to try and make your point sound better go for it.

 

If you think I am missing something then please feel free to post a rebuttal.

[Levity]

That's still not Pay2Win, that's called being resourceful and self-sufficient. There are multitudes of ways in-game to make credits without paying a single dime. And I bet you no one is making millions right now because the stuff from the new packs are being flooded on the ah most items being as low as 10k now. Shure there are some golden ticket items, but those kinds of items have been in since the start of the CM.

 

TL;DR: You still don't have a solid argument since there are plenty of ways to make credits in this game.

 

Bro, I just put 16 packs on the CM and got 6 mil. But yeah no ones making money right now

[Levity]

If you think I am missing something then please feel free to post a rebuttal.

 

The crafting is crap and the cartel martket does nothing to help it and EA/BW refuses to do anything to make it better as well? They are implementing new rep. for every cartel pack? They are implementing cartel martket achievements in 2.0? There's a lot of other issues to this instead of just what you are generalizing. But go ahead and eat it up and not care till these kind of systems make it into parts of the game that make it not playable.

[Devlonir]

They are implementing new rep. for every cartel pack?

Shipment, not pack. A shipment is a collection of 4 packs like we just wrapped up and now have the first 2 of the new ones.

 

But misrepresenting situations is what you've done yourself a lot more this entire thread.

 

PS. I do agree it sucks it gets reset each shipment, though that also depends on how often these packs, and the reputations with them, get re-used, something else they have also announced would happen. Will we get 2 shipments, 4? 8? 12? Nobody knows now.

[Thylbanus]

I would like to point out one thing about the various Cartel Market Reputations.

 

Why implement something with multiple variants that in other areas you are consolidating?

 

We are all tired of the various planet commendations, so the solution for 2.0 is to consolidate those into a universal Planetary Commendation. The same goes for the other mixed bag of commendations. Why implement multiple Cartel Reputations when you already acknowledge the faults of having separate commendations? Seems a little short-sighted and counter-intuitive.

[Mevan]

BTW the absolute best way to look like you have no clue what your talking about is to claim a game has no resources dedicated to it when an expansion is literally right around the corner

 

An expansion that I'm pretty sure has been in development since before launch, according to what EAware have said in the past. The Cartel Market gets regular updates while bugs that have been in the game for months have yet to be fixed.

 

As you can see right here, he's using a rather obvious 'slippery slope' argument, stating that because A happened, that B is inevitable. Rational people see that and realize that it's a bad argument and not based in reality.

 

It's perfectly rational. Sorry that you're too far up EAware's arse to see it.

 

And so have you, you keep blaming EA/Bioware for adding to the game one thing no other cash-shop game has: A way to reward players beyond the actual gear they receive from the grab bags. You do realize most other grab bag games don't even have the ability to trade what you get from them right? You also realize most of them also do not have a system that reward you regardless of the RNG right?

Of all grab bag markets out there, SWTOR has the most reasonable one both for the customers of the packs, and the rest of the players of the game. And it is still not good enough for you, why? Because you are nothing but an entitled freak who feels his 15 dollars a month is worth enough for him to whine and moan about everything he can and demand to sit at the front seat.

 

You know what, your 15 dollars gets you in the stadium to see the show on balcony, front row seats are for those willing to spend more money than you. You still get to share the same experience as customers of the show, but those that pay more have a better experience than you. That's how the world works my friend.

 

An "entitled freak". Says the person who clearly enjoys giving away large sums of money on top of a sub fee. You're the freak here I'm afraid.

 

As for your little example; I've never been anywhere that A) makes you gamble for those front seats and B) charges insane amounts more. A little extra, sure, but most places know where to draw the line. EAware just keep pushing the limits of how greedy a company can be.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Can't talk sense into EAware puppets and the time it takes to try isn't worth it.

[AlienEyeTX]

I would like to point out one thing about the various Cartel Market Reputations.

 

Why implement something with multiple variants that in other areas you are consolidating?

 

We are all tired of the various planet commendations, so the solution for 2.0 is to consolidate those into a universal Planetary Commendation. The same goes for the other mixed bag of commendations. Why implement multiple Cartel Reputations when you already acknowledge the faults of having separate commendations? Seems a little short-sighted and counter-intuitive.

 

Well, there are already several other reputations. You'd be building rep with a "different faction." Not exactly the same as commendations. Although, at this point, I agree that there should just be the one rep. I guess we'll have to wait to see what is offered with the others to know if it makes sense to have a new rep with the new shipment.

[tekhiun]

From your definition of Pay2Win then technically any MMO is Pay2Win. Why? You can pay people to power level you and raid for gear etc. The common sense definition of Pay2Win is that the developers aren't offering high end gear directly for real money. There is always a way for players to pay for high end gear through other players' help in any MMO. Hence your argument is mute.

 

Except these methods are against the TOS of most mmos and also due the randomness of loot it is not as efficient in said mmos. You can pretty much buy gear with money in this game and suffer no consequences by doing so, no ban or suspension. You can even write a ticket to CS saying that you just bought your gear with rl money and thank them for the pay2win system , they wont be able to do anything about it.

 

If you don't wanna call a system where someone can just spend real money to get the best raiding gear via the gtn, without even needing to reach lvl 50, or doing any other sort of activity related to the game pay2win, fine. But it doesn't change the fact that you can get ahead of people just by throwing more IRL money at THE COMPANY that released the game, not other players . If you are fine with that and doesn't see how that can harm the game, have fun playing p2win , but by any means don't use that label cause it doesn't fit the "common sense" definition that you just made up.

[LarryRow]

In my view, they are really going out of their way to make sure that purchasable cosmetic items are distinct enough from the rest of the game to not ruffle any feathers. It was certainly clear to me before yesterday; hopefully more people can now say the same.

[earsrgood]

This was not a good idea. To me I don't care but we have just lost two people who have quit the game over this. The game can ill afford silly losses like this.

 

Its not Pay to Win but its Pay to Grind.........

 

Bad bad idea, almost as bad as wasting time on legacy early doors in the game when they should have been fixing PvP.

[Alavastre]

My god, you guys are still complaining about this?

[Leoness]

'And who exactly is being taken advantage of here?'

 

I think this concludes any argument with regards to stupidity.

[AlienEyeTX]

'And who exactly is being taken advantage of here?'

 

I think this concludes any argument with regards to stupidity.

 

Agreed. Because no one is being taken advantage of.

[enderandrew]

I wanted to pop in and give an update on a few minor changes coming to the Cartel Market Reputation system. I know these things will not address all of your concerns but as always, keep your feedback coming. We are continuing to look at ways to improve the system.

 

• Coming in Game Update 1.7.3 Cartel Market Certificates will now be bind on legacy (as with any other timing announcement this is subject to change).
  
• We feel that a frustration point for some players is that the Contraband Resale Corporation is that it appears too tightly tied to the rest of the Organizations you see in the Reputation system. Sometime in the future, (no exact timing yet) we are going to move all Cartel Market Reputations to their own tab within the Legacy UI.
  

 

As always, keep the feedback coming. We are constantly exploring new ways to improve on the Cartel Market Reputation system.

 

-eric

 

So player feedback was that people are unhappy that you need to pay money for reputation, and now this reads like that system is actually being expanded.

 

ALL Cartel Market Reputations are moving to a new tab?

 

There will be more than one reputation that will depend on cartel coins?

[AlienEyeTX]

So player feedback was that people are unhappy that you need to pay money for reputation, and now this reads like that system is actually being expanded.

 

ALL Cartel Market Reputations are moving to a new tab?

 

There will be more than one reputation that will depend on cartel coins?

 

Yes. They stated that there will be a different rep faction with each shipment of cartel packs. Remember, it took them about 5 months or whatever to get through the first shipment.

[ChrisMattar]

Some people here make some valid points others not so much, but there's one thing that I don't get.

 

What exactly is the problem?

You like to grind? You don't want to pay real money?

 

Then grind dailies for credits and buy the contraband packs on GTN. Problem solved.

you will get rep and probably some goodies inside that you can sell and buy more packs with etc.

Really don't see an issue here. you're not locked out of anything, there's another way to get it all.

 

On the other hand, for those who don't mind paying, they can buy them with real money.

Same goes for anything on the cartel market don't see how this is different.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ChrisMattar

[AlienEyeTX]

Some people here make some valid points others not so much, but there's one thing that I don't get.

 

What exactly is the problem?

You like to grind? You don't want to pay real money?

 

Then grind dailies for credits and buy the contraband packs on GTN. Problem solved.

you will get rep and probably some goodies inside that you can sell and buy more packs with etc.

Really don't see an issue here. you're not locked out of anything, there's another way to get it all.

 

On the other hand, for those who don't mind paying, they can buy them with real money.

Same goes for anything on the cartel market don't see how this is different.

 

I've tried making the same point, but people still complain. I think the issue is that some people do not want to pay extra for anything (that's fine), but they also don't want to work for it. Can't have it both ways. Getting stuffs requires a commitment of some sort. Time or money, your choice.

[DarthTHC]

Bro, I just put 16 packs on the CM and got 6 mil. But yeah no ones making money right now

 

What does that work out to in credits per dollar?

[SHadowsan]

That seems to be the running theme in this forum, so I should fit right in.

I've seen people try to redefine 'pay to win' as 'buying fluff items that I want, with cash'. I've seen them try and say that since they saw maxing reps as 'winning' that this new thing was 'pay to win' for them.

 

And all it comes down to is: People are buying stuff that others want to get for free. They have this misguided notion that EVERYTHING in the game should be accessible to subscribers just because they're subscribers.

 

No one is trying to redefine the fact that this game is already Pay2Win. As long as you can convert items purchased in the CM into in game credits its P2W. I can buy a pack of 24 crates. Sell them - currently on Shadowlands 400,000 (Geez they aren't declining in price as people said they would earlier - must be a big demand to get REP). That nets you a sweet - 9,600, 000. . I can take a brand new toon. and equip him in purples all the way up to L50. And then at L50 still probably have enough credits left over to buy all L27 Armour, Mods and ENH. If not I could just slap down another $80 and buy what I still need to get the TOP level gear in this game. If this isn't pay to win, I don't know what is. Just because I can't directly buy L27 gear directly off the CM doesn't mean its not P2W.

 

The OP and Main Complaint in this thread is about the direction that EAware is taking with SWTOR.

1) At launch we had 99.9% accessible content for subscribers. Yes we know if you bought the CE edition you got a few extra things. EVERY game out there has those types of promotions. We know it and its an accepted practice.

 

2) SWTOR switches to a F2P model and the specifically stated (See Developers Update 11.07.2012 Developer Update:Free to Play Option )

 

The second core rule is that subscribers should not experience any degradation of their gameplay experience. Those of you who are still paying a monthly fee should still get the same gameplay experience and you won’t find anything taken away from you and the gameplay that you currently enjoy. Furthermore, we really wanted to be sure that in no way would subscribers feel they needed to make purchases from the Cartel Market in order to be competitive in the game.

 

3) With each introduction of the Packs the amount of in game fluff has gone from 99.9 % for subscribers to now its 80-90% CM and 10-20% subscribers. You can still buy the items with in game credits on the GTN and most people still don't have too much of a problem. We realize that to keep this game going they needed to get some cash. And they found a way to do it.

 

4) They have overstepped their bounds when they incorporated the CM with already established gameplay mechanics within the REPUTATION system. Every 5-6 months, with a new Cartel Market shipment of packs, you will have to PAY2REP a new faction. So with now 80 packs to buy on the GTN to get max rep. At todays price of 400,000 credits it will cost a subscriber approx. 32,000,00 in game credits. This is at a minimum cause assuming that you get mostly purple rep tokens. Increase the cost to over double, triple is you have a miserable drop rate. OH - and you have to do this in the next 5-6 months cause we can't guarantee that the packs will be available. NO OTHER GAMING COMMUNITY FORCES YOU TO PAY4REP. If they want to REWARD their loyal cash cows - then reward them. Give them free boxes, A guarantee of X number of certificates for every hypercrate they purchase, whatever you want - REMOVE the REPUTATION, gaming aspect .........PERIOD.

 

5) This will further be further be implemented in 2.0 with the introduction of Legacy ACHIEVMENTS - another GAMING aspect. There are many achievement that will be easier if you P2W. You can always buy these off the GTN and this is an acceptable alternative. Oh yeah and you get - 0 points for having the Minimech CE pet. (Guess you already have their money - and cant get them to pony up some more, lol)

 

No one in this entire thread has ever said I want It now, give me MOAR as some have said. There are hundreds that say this system is deplorable. There are a staunch < 10 that say this is great, who cares stop whining. All the subscribers community wants is the ability, or even the remote possiblilty, of being able to obtain this through some gaming mechanic. They want to be be able, if they choose, complete their reputation for this faction without having to spend REAL $$ or millions of in game credits. (It would be cheaper for me to just use my credits to get my toon a full L27 gear set that to get this REP done)

 

The grind for REP Gree takes approx. 4 weeks to reach (and I had enough rep tokens the first week, just had to wait for the weekly gate to open) to complete. NO ONE without spending real life CASH will be able to reach this new REPUTATION in 4 weeks, or probably even 5 months without some serious daily grinding just for this one aspect of the game. Nevermind HM, OPS or all the other aspects of the game that we are supposed to be working on to enjoy our gaming.. (And yes I know you get Credits in those as well).

 

This is a very sad direction that EAware is taking - DO NOT INCORPORATE any aspect of real word dollars into the established, or new ones you are going to conceive, elements of game play.

[TheNahash]

No one is trying to redefine the fact that this game is already Pay2Win. As long as you can convert items purchased in the CM into in game credits its P2W. I can buy a pack of 24 crates. Sell them - currently on Shadowlands 400,000 (Geez they aren't declining in price as people said they would earlier - must be a big demand to get REP). That nets you a sweet - 9,600, 000. . I can take a brand new toon. and equip him in purples all the way up to L50. And then at L50 still probably have enough credits left over to buy all L27 Armour, Mods and ENH. If not I could just slap down another $80 and buy what I still need to get the TOP level gear in this game. If this isn't pay to win, I don't know what is. Just because I can't directly buy L27 gear directly off the CM doesn't mean its not P2W.

 

You're looking at this all wrong, imho.

Yes, you could buy the packs and sell them and make those 9.6mil.

You know how else you could do that? Crafting L27 items. Reverse engineering made it possible for players to make a looot of credits by overcharging for mods. The cost especially lately was so small (through re'ing 61 PVP mods, Space Mission rewards, looting in raids and re'ing loot in raids) that for anyone who raids or pvps (which essentially means, any hardcore player who'd be even care to get the L27 mods) it was a joke to make 9.6 mil.

 

And let's not even go there:

How about the fact that for a long time now guilds have been able to essentially gear up people just by crafting them L27 mods?

 

That's not to say the Cartel Market hasn't helped people become rich faster, but to say that this is why this game is P2W is really missing the other ways people can get to 63 gear without having to do anything with the market.

 

And even if none of the above sound logical to you, then come 2.0 you won't be able to get BiS gear without raiding, since top gear will not be available for re'ing. So this whole thing is a moot point.

 

The grind for REP Gree takes approx. 4 weeks to reach (and I had enough rep tokens the first week, just had to wait for the weekly gate to open) to complete. NO ONE without spending real life CASH will be able to reach this new REPUTATION in 4 weeks, or probably even 5 months without some serious daily grinding just for this one aspect of the game. Nevermind HM, OPS or all the other aspects of the game that we are supposed to be working on to enjoy our gaming.. (And yes I know you get Credits in those as well).

 

This is a very sad direction that EAware is taking - DO NOT INCORPORATE any aspect of real word dollars into the established, or new ones you are going to conceive, elements of game play.

 

I don't get this "need" to reach the highest level as soon as possible. You say that the packs are still expensive. Wait a bit more, then. People will eventually start selling them for less and they're not going anywhere. The only thing that could happen is that maybe Bioware will implement a way to get Rep without cartel packs - even though this is supposed to be for people who support SWTOR through the Cartel Market, but anyway...

 

You can get there eventually. Just not as fast. What's the big deal?

Edited March 20, 2013 by TheNahash

[Eillack]

 

[snip]

 

I don't get this "need" to reach the highest level as soon as possible. You say that the packs are still expensive. Wait a bit more, then. People will eventually start selling them for less and they're not going anywhere. The only thing that could happen is that maybe Bioware will implement a way to get Rep without cartel packs - even though this is supposed to be for people who support SWTOR through the Cartel Market, but anyway...

 

You can get there eventually. Just not as fast. What's the big deal?

 

Seeing that Reputation = content...people want to access it...