Erked.

[chuixupu]

I wanted to pop in and give an update on a few minor changes coming to the Cartel Market Reputation system. I know these things will not address all of your concerns but as always, keep your feedback coming. We are continuing to look at ways to improve the system.

 

• Coming in Game Update 1.7.3 Cartel Market Certificates will now be bind on legacy (as with any other timing announcement this is subject to change).
  
• We feel that a frustration point for some players is that the Contraband Resale Corporation is that it appears too tightly tied to the rest of the Organizations you see in the Reputation system. Sometime in the future, (no exact timing yet) we are going to move all Cartel Market Reputations to their own tab within the Legacy UI.
  

 

As always, keep the feedback coming. We are constantly exploring new ways to improve on the Cartel Market Reputation system.

 

-eric

 

Alright, this is an improvement. But not the heart of the issue for everyone. The packs in general don't bother me all that much since people will put items they don't want, or duplicate items up for sale individually and I can buy those with credits. I don't like gambling, but that's a personal choice. But If I want the items you can get from the rep vendor, I have to buy the full packs in some way, and then spend more credits. The only reason a cartel pack in full goes on sale on the GTN is because someone has the money to spend on packs entirely for the purpose of making in game currency off other people. It's dodgy. Coercing people to keep spending money on the packs in this manner is dodgy. I believe that people are responsible for making their own choices on how to spend money, but this seems to set a bad precedent for the company.

 

But I won't go down the slippery slope too far yet, I'll wait and see and hope that I can continue to feel that my subscription is worth it down the line. I don't want to feel like I have to play the Cartel Market to get all the coolest stuff in the game.

[DAMossimo]

We are constantly exploring new ways to improve on the Cartel Market Reputation system.

 

-eric

 

Ah yes. I'm sure you are. That is the problem Eric.

[Mevan]

Pretty sure you're the one missing the point. The reputation offers gear that has zero ingame benefit - no stats. The reputation was designed specifically to reward people who buy stuff. You're missing the entire point by complaining that you have to... buy stuff.... to gain a reputation designed to reward people who... wait for it... buy stuff!

 

"Reward people who buy stuff". By telling them to buy more stuff? It's quite clear from your post that you are missing the point. Several, in fact.

 

And why do a select amount of people keep recycling that garbage excuse that the new gear offers no stats? PEOPLE DO NOT CARE. Stop assuming everyone is a PvPer or a Raider and that the best, most awesome stats are the only thing that make items worth getting. Customization is a big part of any MMO- stats do not have anything to do with this debate.

[Infernixx]

"Reward people who buy stuff". By telling them to buy more stuff? It's quite clear from your post that you are missing the point. Several, in fact.

 

And why do a select amount of people keep recycling that garbage excuse that the new gear offers no stats? PEOPLE DO NOT CARE. Stop assuming everyone is a PvPer or a Raider and that the best, most awesome stats are the only thing that make items worth getting. Customization is a big part of any MMO- stats do not have anything to do with this debate.

 

They keep repeating it because people keep stating that fluff gear is worth getting angry over.

[Mevan]

They keep repeating it because people keep stating that fluff gear is worth getting angry over.

 

It is. Because group A doesn't like the same content as group B, it's perfectly fine to let group B get screwed over? Really hope they implement a rep system for raiders in the future, so they have to pay to get their fluff. I imagine a number of people would suddenly have an inexplicable change of heart regarding the issue...

[Infernixx]

It is. Because group A doesn't like the same content as group B, it's perfectly fine to let group B get screwed over? Really hope they implement a rep system for raiders in the future, so they have to pay to get their fluff. I imagine a number of people would suddenly have an inexplicable change of heart regarding the issue...

 

Group A and Group B both like the gear, but only Group A is willing to pay for it.

 

I fail to see a reason why Group B should get angry over that fact.

[Mevan]

Group A and Group B both like the gear, but only Group A is willing to pay for it.

 

I fail to see a reason why Group B should get angry over that fact.

 

Um, because Group A don't understand the whole idea behind a subscription?

 

And you're telling me you'd be happy to have to spend hundreds on Cartel Packs to be able to access FP's, Ops and Warzones?

[Master-Nala]

And why do a select amount of people keep recycling that garbage excuse that the new gear offers no stats? PEOPLE DO NOT CARE. Stop assuming everyone is a PvPer or a Raider and that the best, most awesome stats are the only thing that make items worth getting. Customization is a big part of any MMO- stats do not have anything to do with this debate.

 

But then, all you're saying is that you don't want a cash shop at all then. This then is just the latest permutation of the general objection to the introduction of the cash shop. They days of earning all your appearances in game is gone. There's no game I'm aware of that still offers every cosmetic thing via gameplay only. WoW has its pets and mounts, the other F2P games have significantly more.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way. Certainly wanting to earn things in the game by playing the game is a legitimate desire. But it's not going to happen. Why keep wasting all these electrons complaining about it?

[Master-Nala]

Um, because Group A don't understand the whole idea behind a subscription?

 

If your primary motivator for playing the game is appearance and you feel it's unfair that certain appearance items are locked behind a cash shop, then please explain why you are still here. Surely you know they are not going to turn back from this path completely.

 

And you're telling me you'd be happy to have to spend hundreds on Cartel Packs to be able to access FP's, Ops and Warzones?

 

These are gameplay. What you're talking about is customization. Again, I can understand if customization is more important than gameplay elements, but you recognize that Bioware is traveling a well worn path with their cash shop?

Edited March 20, 2013 by Master-Nala

[Mevan]

But then, all you're saying is that you don't want a cash shop at all then. This then is just the latest permutation of the general objection to the introduction of the cash shop. They days of earning all your appearances in game is gone. There's no game I'm aware of that still offers every cosmetic thing via gameplay only. WoW has its pets and mounts, the other F2P games have significantly more.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way. Certainly wanting to earn things in the game by playing the game is a legitimate desire. But it's not going to happen. Why keep wasting all these electrons complaining about it?

 

If a gear set was offered for a set price then I would be fine with it (as fine as one can be with such a system), but it isn't. The reputation vendors are filled with nothing but recoloured items we can get in-game already, then they add a new vendor with actual new content and we're told we have to spend God knows how much money to be able to get them? Grinding in-game for an item is one thing, paying for an item via a cash shop is another.

 

But a cash grind? Some things push way past what's acceptable. This is one of those things.

[Mevan]

If your primary motivator for playing the game is appearance and you feel it's unfair that certain appearance items are locked behind a cash shop, then please explain why you are still here. Surely you know they are not going to turn back from this path completely.

 

These are gameplay. What you're talking about is customization. Again, I can understand if customization is more important than gameplay elements, but you recognize that Bioware is traveling a well worn path with their cash shop?

 

No other game that I want to play is out yet, so I have little else to do but stick with this game until that changes (given that SWG was unfairly euthanized).

 

And is it well-worn though? I've not heard of another company that extorts its supporters so overtly.

[Master-Nala]

No other game that I want to play is out yet, so I have little else to do but stick with this game until that changes (given that SWG was unfairly euthanized).

 

Frankly, if I were EA/Bioware, I would be giggling my head off upon reading that. You're saying that you deeply object to a portion of the game, but you know "screw it, there's no other games I want to play." If I were one of the business people over at Bioware, I would hold this up as an example of why they should continue down this path.

 

And is it well-worn though? I've not heard of another company that extorts its supporters so overtly.

 

Many of the truths we cling to are greatly dependent upon our own point of view. From my perspective, the reputation system is VASTLY preferable to the packs by themselves. After buying one Hypercrate, I now can buy those 43 armors for 40K credits anytime I want. I can buy some of the things on the main rep vendor. For credits. To an altoholic with a serious addiction, that is much preferable to having to spend 2-4 a pop for those items. I vastly prefer it to the cash shop in SOE games or WoW's $25 mount or Eve's $70 eyepatch.

 

I also prefer this system because it encouraged a lot of people (including me) to buy packs (I never did before) so I was able to get that snazzy skiff with a small portion of the credits I earned selling stuff.

 

You're so lost in your hatred of this system that you haven't stopped to consider that others might not feel exploited.

[Mevan]

Frankly, if I were EA/Bioware, I would be giggling my head off upon reading that. You're saying that you deeply object to a portion of the game, but you know "screw it, there's no other games I want to play." If I were one of the business people over at Bioware, I would hold this up as an example of why they should continue down this path.

 

Many of the truths we cling to are greatly dependent upon our own point of view. From my perspective, the reputation system is VASTLY preferable to the packs by themselves. After buying one Hypercrate, I now can buy those 43 armors for 40K credits anytime I want. I can buy some of the things on the main rep vendor. For credits. To an altoholic with a serious addiction, that is much preferable to having to spend 2-4 a pop for those items. I vastly prefer it to the cash shop in SOE games or WoW's $25 mount or Eve's $70 eyepatch.

 

I also prefer this system because it encouraged a lot of people (including me) to buy packs (I never did before) so I was able to get that snazzy skiff with a small portion of the credits I earned selling stuff.

 

You're so lost in your hatred of this system that you haven't stopped to consider that others might not feel exploited.

 

And when another game does come out? (and another game of the same genre is coming out in the near future) Will they be laughing then?

 

So you'd rather spend well over £100 on gambling boxes just to be able to get enough reputation to simply use the items? They've got you, haven't they?

 

Please tell me though, if others don't feel exploited, are all the other people in this thread who are against it my other accounts? Because I seem to recall a lot of people agreeing that this is a bad and greedy move on EAware's part...

[Leoness]

Master-Nala is clearly a Bioware employee.

 

There's a demand for heroin, so what's the problem in selling it?

[Mevan]

Master-Nala is clearly a Bioware employee.

 

There's a demand for heroin, so what's the problem in selling it?

 

You made my day :')

[Infernixx]

Master-Nala is clearly a Bioware employee.

 

There's a demand for heroin, so what's the problem in selling it?

 

If pixels were addictive narcotics, you might have a point.

 

All I hear in these complaints is "I want that stuff and I don't really want to put much effort into getting it. I realize that the Resale rep is based on opening Packs, but I still don't want to pony up the credits/cash to get those Packs. I, instead, believe that this rep based on opening Packs should not be gained solely on opening Packs, but instead, by doing other things that already have their rewards. That way, I can continue to do what I was already doing for those rewards, and still get this new rep so that I can get this other stuff that I also want. In short, I want to continue putting forth the same amount of effort as I was before, and still get new stuff. NAO OR I QUIT."

[Mevan]

All I hear...

 

From that post, you've made it quite clear that you hear what you want to hear...

[Infernixx]

From that post, you've made it quite clear that you hear what you want to hear...

 

That seems to be the running theme in this forum, so I should fit right in.

 

It seems to be standard for people to try and redefine common terms so that they can be right. They're masters at hurling around hyperbole and insults and quick to label people 'fanbois' and 'water carriers' for simply pointing out relatively obvious reality. They haul around goal-posts like toothpicks and have strawman arguments memorized, it seemed, as they trot them out with ease.

 

I've seen people try to redefine 'pay to win' as 'buying fluff items that I want, with cash'. I've seen them try and say that since they saw maxing reps as 'winning' that this new thing was 'pay to win' for them.

 

And all it comes down to is: People are buying stuff that others want to get for free. They have this misguided notion that EVERYTHING in the game should be accessible to subscribers just because they're subscribers.

 

I'm a subscriber, and I recognize that I'm not the main focus. But, thank GOD that the CM exists, because I also realize that without it, this game would have nowhere near the amount of resources dedicated to it that it does.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Infernixx

[Master-Nala]

So you'd rather spend well over £100 on gambling boxes just to be able to get enough reputation to simply use the items? They've got you, haven't they?

 

I spent about $50 US Dollars. Equivalent to £33. And yes, they have me. I enjoy the game and thus frequent its message boards. Shocking I know.

[Master-Nala]

Master-Nala is clearly a Bioware employee.

 

Attorney in private practice, but nice try.

 

There's a demand for heroin, so what's the problem in selling it?

 

Hopefully I won't run afoul of the forum rules, I personally think drugs should be legal and treated like other legal drugs like nicotine and alcohol. We all have our addictions. Mine is making alts. With my beloved City of Heroes and my 40 alts now dead and gone, SWTOR feeds that addiction.

[Eillack]

If pixels were addictive narcotics, you might have a point.

 

All I hear in these complaints is "I want that stuff and I don't really want to put much effort into getting it. I realize that the Resale rep is based on opening Packs, but I still don't want to pony up the credits/cash to get those Packs. I, instead, believe that this rep based on opening Packs should not be gained solely on opening Packs, but instead, by doing other things that already have their rewards. That way, I can continue to do what I was already doing for those rewards, and still get this new rep so that I can get this other stuff that I also want. In short, I want to continue putting forth the same amount of effort as I was before, and still get new stuff. NAO OR I QUIT."

 

Actually MMO's have been proven to be highly addictive to almost the extent of certain drugs.

[Mevan]

That seems to be the running theme in this forum, so I should fit right in.

 

It seems to be standard for people to try and redefine common terms so that they can be right. They're masters at hurling around hyperbole and insults and quick to label people 'fanbois' and 'water carriers' for simply pointing out relatively obvious reality. They haul around goal-posts like toothpicks and have strawman arguments memorized, it seemed, as they trot them out with ease.

 

I've seen people try to redefine 'pay to win' as 'buying fluff items that I want, with cash'. I've seen them try and say that since they saw maxing reps as 'winning' that this new thing was 'pay to win' for them.

 

And all it comes down to is: People are buying stuff that others want to get for free. They have this misguided notion that EVERYTHING in the game should be accessible to subscribers just because they're subscribers.

 

I'm a subscriber, and I recognize that I'm not the main focus. But, thank GOD that the CM exists, because I also realize that without it, this game would have nowhere near the amount of resources dedicated to it that it does.

 

This game doesn't have resources dedicated to it. The Cartel Market has resources dedicated to it.

 

The only reason they introduced the CM was because EAware failed to run the game well enough. A potentially brilliant game was destroyed in record time, to be replaced by this money-grabbing system that you love so much. But please, continue supporting this blatant attempt to drain as much money as possible. I'm hoping they start charging you excessive amounts of money to access the content you enjoy in the near future, but you should like that right? Because if you don't that means you want stuff for free, right? Obviously we, as subscribers, aren't entitled to a damned thing, as you pointed out.

 

Try all you like to make it sound like people against this system are just lazy or too tight to spend money and want content for free, but we both know that's a lie to suit your "argument", though tbh I can't really see what your point was, aside from trying to make out like EAware should be celebrated and those who speak against them are spouting heresy.

 

And for the record, not once have I said this is P2W. When they do add it, though, I'm fairly confident you'll support them.

[XuShaBi]

Actually MMO's have been proven to be highly addictive to almost the extent of certain drugs.

 

This is just a poor play of semantics. Mental and physical addiction are totally different issues. Narcotics falls under physical addiction i.e. you are expected to have negative physical reaction, independent of your mental state, when disrupting a cycle of prolonged use.

Edited March 20, 2013 by XuShaBi

[Infernixx]

This game doesn't have resources dedicated to it. The Cartel Market has resources dedicated to it.

 

The only reason they introduced the CM was because EAware failed to run the game well enough. A potentially brilliant game was destroyed in record time, to be replaced by this money-grabbing system that you love so much. But please, continue supporting this blatant attempt to drain as much money as possible. I'm hoping they start charging you excessive amounts of money to access the content you enjoy in the near future, but you should like that right? Because if you don't that means you want stuff for free, right? Obviously we, as subscribers, aren't entitled to a damned thing, as you pointed out.

 

Try all you like to make it sound like people against this system are just lazy or too tight to spend money and want content for free, but we both know that's a lie to suit your "argument", though tbh I can't really see what your point was, aside from trying to make out like EAware should be celebrated and those who speak against them are spouting heresy.

 

And for the record, not once have I said this is P2W. When they do add it, though, I'm fairly confident you'll support them.

 

As you can see right here, he's using a rather obvious 'slippery slope' argument, stating that because A happened, that B is inevitable. Rational people see that and realize that it's a bad argument and not based in reality.

 

And you can see right after that, he's using a strawman argument, disputing something that wasn't said at all, since disputing what was actually said is rather hard and he can't do that. So, he simply makes something up and disputes 'that' instead.

 

Lastly, he piles on a good deal of hyperbole and misguided 'woe is me' self-pity at being so maligned.

 

And it's capped off with another bit of strawman, claiming to be persecuted for what he says.

 

Now then: Your argument is bad, your refutations are aimed at things that were never said or insinuated and you're coming off as whiny at the end.

 

As a subscriber, you're entitled to every path of gear progression as it exists in the game. It does not entitle you to 'extras'. The CM market is 'extra'. If you want 'extra', you pay extra. If you can't afford to buy the Packs with credits and/or cash, then you obviously don't want that rep all that badly.

 

I'm sorry, but just 'deal with it'.

[XuShaBi]

This game doesn't have resources dedicated to it. The Cartel Market has resources dedicated to it.

 

This has absolutely no basis.

 

The only reason they introduced the CM was because EAware failed to run the game well enough. A potentially brilliant game was destroyed in record time, to be replaced by this money-grabbing system that you love so much. But please, continue supporting this blatant attempt to drain as much money as possible. I'm hoping they start charging you excessive amounts of money to access the content you enjoy in the near future, but you should like that right? Because if you don't that means you want stuff for free, right? Obviously we, as subscribers, aren't entitled to a damned thing, as you pointed out.

 

Try all you like to make it sound like people against this system are just lazy or too tight to spend money and want content for free, but we both know that's a lie to suit your "argument", though tbh I can't really see what your point was, aside from trying to make out like EAware should be celebrated and those who speak against them are spouting heresy.

 

And for the record, not once have I said this is P2W. When they do add it, though, I'm fairly confident you'll support them.

 

The main problem that most of complaints completely lack to take into account what majority of subscribers would accept. The very fact that they are generating revenue from these vanity stuff shows people find the vanity stuff addition great to the game.

 

Striving for puritan ideals in a MMO is just non-sense. Many SWTOR players aren't seasoned MMO players hence they don't share these puritan ideals. If these vanity stuff sparks people's interest to stay in the game or help generate resource for the game then so be it. Keeping the game filled with players and financially viable is what makes ToR alive for us to play. Striving for puritan ideals is not necessary.