Ban all premades outside of ranked 50

[psandak]

Notes:

#1: I am VERY casual PvPer. In fact I have done one warzone in the last two weeks.

#2: I have done a grand total of ONE pre-made (with two other guild mates six months ago)

#3: I have NEVER quit a Warzone (I dread huttball, but I do my best; if my side is losing badly in any warzone, to me that is incentive to try harder [to use smarter tactics - specifically not to rush head long into a bad situation] not to rage quit).

#4: I did not read all 18 pages of this thread, so maybe what I am about to say has been said.

 

So without any further ado...

@Teammembertwo (the OP)

 

There simply is no valid argument for putting a premade group up against a bunch who solo queued. Anyone making an argument to the contrary is simply trying to maintain anunfair advantage.

 

Here are a couple of a very logical arguments for mixing pre-made groups and solo queue players:

 

warzone queue times. If you separate the two styles then BOTH will have longer queue times. Are you willing to double or triple the wait time between warzones?

 

not all pre-made groups are made the same. Yes there are a lot of them who use vent (or some other voice chat system), and/or are VERY coordinated. That in no way means that they are ALL that way. You'd be surprised how often it is just a bunch of guildies wanting to do PvP together because it is the SOCIAL thing to do.

[Caeliux]

Once again, premade pugstomping is easymode for scrubs. That's it. If you want a challenge, you don't put your premade against pugs. All this crap about playing with friends, and the equally moronic yet old as dirt addage about it being 'multiplayer' are poor excuses for getting easy wins.

 

^

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IswlXvz87vU/S4TOxUAOevI/AAAAAAAAAp0/_X1iI6jLns8/s640/dog8.jpg

Edited March 14, 2013 by Caeliux

[Vember]

Dude, seriously calm down and take a breather. All the rage and something is bound to pop.

 

You call that raging?

[LanceCorporalDan]

You call that raging?

 

Oh boy.. here it comes..

[cycao]

You call that raging?

 

Oh you weren't done?

[Vember]

Oh you weren't done?

 

Oh I haven't even started

[scraycroft]

Maybe a answer would be to have 3 different queues like they have in COD.

 

Mercenary Warzone: Players that will be teamed with solo players. No groups or premades.

 

Team Warzone : fairly simple, players can group together if they want, solo players can Que but will come up against premades.

 

Ranked Warzone : same as before.

 

 

That's my idea it properly won't happen but hey

 

Until cross server queuing is available the servers don't have populations to support this. I for one don't feel like waiting 30 minutes for a queue to pop.

[popeyedaddy]

i am in no way a good pvp'er but i do have more than 700 pvp wins, in the 5 months i have pvp'ing because i sucked hard at first and used to blame it on the game. I almost never get to be online with my guildies as we are in different time zones. With that said, you can face a premade with 8 "hey i am mvp" and still win as long as you have the ability to type and read the chat, no need to have fancy things like ventrilo or teamspeak.

You can be a whiner and run when you see a premade or you can have fun trying to win regardless of who is on the other side. If you end up in a pug with only " i am the lord of dps's kind of people" then you are going to lose. Sadly most puggers got a sick need to be top medal for whatever reason instead of playing objectives. Being oblivious to objectives and care only about medals is the reason pugs suck, IF you happen to be in a pug where people is vocal and care to win as a team rather than being mvp you have a fair chance. Blame the community for this debacle not the game design.

[criminalheretic]

Once again, premade pugstomping is easymode for scrubs. That's it. If you want a challenge, you don't put your premade against pugs. All this crap about playing with friends, and the equally moronic yet old as dirt addage about it being 'multiplayer' are poor excuses for getting easy wins.

 

I love premades, when I'm facing another premade. I hate being in a premade fighting pugs, its about as challenging as navigating a Dr Seuss book with my kid. Also, these equally idiotic analogies about pickup basketball games need to stop. I mean, if you're going to go that far, then you might as well include an NBA team in your example against a bunch of local kids, as that's pretty much the equivalent.

 

As flattering as it is to be compared to an NBA player in terms of skill, because I know at least 3 people who don't suck at PvP in SWTOR, and I sometimes group with them, I would be remiss if I didn't point out the obvious hyperbole. Furthermore, if you are going to call the opinions of others "idiotic" while simultaneously providing NO evidence to support your own, then you being "that guy" is what needs to stop.

[scraycroft]

Blah blah blah all you're trying to do is condone easymode pvp. If you want to play with friends, play in ranked. Why anyone would want to premade against pugs is beyond me anyway, its boring as hell. I mean, I know the answer, and "playing with friends" isn't it.

 

Having three buddies you like to play with, or grabbing 3 online guildies, is completely different than having 7 players you know who synchronize their playing times to queue ranked. Introduce 4 man ranked arenas and your argument would have maybe a small amount of validity

[TonyDragonflame]

The premade v pugs advantage is largely a myth created by solo queuers making excuses for being bad because they continue trying to play team-based MMO PvP content as a solo game. The fact of the matter is that premades face other premades the majority of the time in WZs. This isn't speculation, this is by design per

.

 

What tell us statistic (POT5):

Pub Pug vs Imp Premade: 25%

Pub Premade vs Imp Pug: 96%

 

and the imp win percentages (inversed from above)

 

Imp Pug vs. Pub Premade: 4%

Imp Premades vs. Pub Pug: 76%

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=608058&page=4

 

- so, premade win from pug with chances 75-96%.

 

A basic matchmaking algorithm in the queue system pits premades versus premades first before filling the remaining spots with solo queuers. The only time a premade faces only pugs is when there are no other premades queuing at the same time.

- incorrect.

Faction difference have more priority than premades existance. I.e. if have premade 4 imp, premade 3 imp and 4 solo rep, there will be imp premades vs. rep players, not premade imps vs. other premade imps.

 

The reason most players lose to premades in Regs and Lowbies is because the premade on their team wasn't as good as the premade on the other side and the remaining pug players on the team stunk it up just as bad (or worse) as the premade did. Equally, the only time a pug wins a WZ is because a premade carried them for the most part.

 

- incorrect.

The reason is advantage of out-of-swtor voice communications like teamspeak, best stacking classes and knowledge of tasks and playstyle each other.

 

 

That is the logical and correct solution in a MMO team-based PvP format. There is nothing more healthy and fair in MMO PvP than encouraging players to work with other like-minded players to perform to the best of their ability in an objective-based team environment.

 

And they do...I would wager almost 90% of the time. See my response above and Gabe's testament to this fact.

 

- this system is failed, cuz all game concerned around solo storyline questing, and most part of target auduence playbase are casual players who wanna some play after full-time work in evening without any teamspeak - just for fun.

 

So, this unfair disadvantage implemented in current system - and this one from other mistakes of game pvp design (remember first 10-50 lvl warzones, awful grind pvp gear before 1.2, failed ilum etc), which lead to fail this game and drop subs from 2 mil on start until 500 k now.

 

If BW dont fixed this, this game will continue slowly die. Look on the population of pure pvp servers - they are all slowly decreased.

 

Experience of pvp systems with pugs and premades in other MMO games like WoW or AION looks like dont teach BW... so good luck them

[DarthBloodloss]

Yeah derp. Sure if you don't have anything close to an optimal group you will probably get crushed but hey, if you have 6 mercs and two pt's online have two of them spec healing the rest arsenal/pyro and have the pt's go tank and queue it up and have a blast.

 

I am not sure if you are trying to insult me or not. You included the extremely cool and popular word "derp" so I assume you are trying to be condescending?

 

But then I have a feeling you agree with me because of the rest of the post....If I want to take a group of bads in a WZ, how does this hurt you?

 

So pre-mades are ok if they suck? So then the problem isn't actually pre-mades. The REAL problem is going up against people who are better then you?

 

I keep giving the example of me forming a pre-made with 3 other casual players who are non-Mara, PT, Assassin. You don't seem to have a problem going up against this pre-made.....why not?

[DarthBloodloss]

Pub Pug vs Imp Premade: 25%

Pub Premade vs Imp Pug: 96%

 

and the imp win percentages (inversed from above)

 

Imp Pug vs. Pub Premade: 4%

Imp Premades vs. Pub Pug: 76%

I don't want to argue with you about statistics but I just wanted to chime in with my 2 credits

 

I'm a PvPer but almost none of my friends are. I have a 91 valor Pyro Merc in fully optimized EWH. I solo queue about 90% of the time because I'm just trying to knock out the dailies real quick.

 

Somehow.....my win rate is over 50% as a PUG. I find that forming a pre-made or solo queueing doesn't effect my win rate very much. My main point is, I find the 4% win rate "debatable"

 

Again, I dont mean to argue with you. I just feel like something isn't adding up right.

[GalaxyStrong]

All I'm going to say is this: I am a good PVP player (Not Amazing or anything), I know how to use rotations, Defensive CD's, offensive CD's, I understand my classes Pro's and Faults, and I try to communicate with my team. If My PUG team is going against other PUG team's we can win 5-7 battles out of 10. If my PUG team is going against PRE-MADE team's, we MIGHT win 1 out of 10 battles.

 

I'm not saying PRE-MADE's should be completely banned but, JESUS CHRIST we need to do SOMETHING!!!

 

XD, If your queuing SOLO and you manage to get stuck fighting PRE-MADES's maybe 5-6 times in a row (this has happened to me on more than one occasion) it is XD demoralizing and put's you in a frame of mind where you honestly believe their is no point in playing PVP because these PRE-MADES are just going to roll over you and make you feel like it's impossible to win.

[DarthOvertone]

it basically looks like a thinly veiled insult on people who don't want to play the game the same way as you.

 

Not at all. The fact of the matter is that a WZ is competitive match play. Additionally, WZs are objective-based and designed around team coordination. As a result, players that play better as a team will have more success in the combat environment. It's really very basic.

 

Playing "solo" actually runs against the team format. Now that is not to say solo queuing is not a viable playstyle. This is a game, players pay their sub, BW makes it possible to solo queue, and they can choose to play how they wish. However, asking BW to transform a team play objective-based PvP environment into a haven for solos doesn't make much sense, especially in a MMO where social interaction is not only encouraged, but largely expected.

 

That has not been my observation at all. Something in the system appears broken, if that is what is truly intended by the devs...I rarely see two opposing premades in a match. I suppose we all have our own perceptions.

 

It may appear that way from your solo pugging angle. However, I must say that I'm more inclined to accept the statement of an actual BW Developer to your internal premade detector.

 

You can still group and work together with like minded player's, just not at the expense of the casuals who play this game as the theme-park it is.

 

Firstly, I question this assumption that "casuals" all play as solo puggers in WZs. I seriously doubt there are many casuals playing this game that don't play with someone they know; whether guildmates, online acquaintenances or RL friends. Casual players are defined by the amount of time they spend playing the game, not a solo, pugging style. All of the casuals I'm familiar with in SWTOR each play with someone (wife, gf, bf, brother, rl friend), and they play grouped that way in all varieties of the content they play; FPs, WZs and dailies.

 

So I do not concede that the casual player base is hurt by premades in WZs. In fact, based on Gabe's statement it is highly likely that casuals actually constitute the majority of the premades in WZs and prefer to play the content in that manner.

 

Seriously, if you believe all of what you posted, how does it hurt you to have seperate queues?

 

I just see no need for separate queues. I'm not opposed to them being there, but I would rather BW put their energy into developing more WZs and OPvP content.

 

And this coming from someone that rarely runs regs at 50 anymore (I only run RWZs on my two Imp 50s), and I solo the majority of the time on my lowbies, mainly because everyone in my guild is 50 and doesn't really roll alts at this stage.

[DarthOvertone]

What tell us statistic (POT5):

Pub Pug vs Imp Premade: 25%

Pub Premade vs Imp Pug: 96%

 

and the imp win percentages (inversed from above)

 

Imp Pug vs. Pub Premade: 4%

Imp Premades vs. Pub Pug: 76%

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=608058&page=4

 

While I appreciate the effort of that guy who did a survey of his own play, he does not possess a premade detector. There are numerous potential holes in his methodology that would skew his results horribly, namely, that a premade does not always consist of players sharing similar guild tags, and even when players have the same guild tag, it does not always connote that they are indeed running as a premade. So my first initial question is how he was able to discern who was in a premade and who wasn't.

 

Just on the failure of that basic premise his nice survey of Pug v Premade action is just that, a very nice effort.

 

- incorrect.

Faction difference have more priority than premades existance. I.e. if have premade 4 imp, premade 3 imp and 4 solo rep, there will be imp premades vs. rep players, not premade imps vs. other premade imps.

 

There is nothing incorrect about the information I provided. However, there may be additional conditions in the matchmaking that I'm not aware of. Please provide documentation from BW's Devs that support your statement above. I would be more than happy to accept the information as I'm trying to better understand how the queues in WZs work.

 

this system is failed, cuz all game concerned around solo storyline questing, and most part of target auduence playbase are casual players who wanna some play after full-time work in evening without any teamspeak - just for fun.

 

The system is far from a failure, although it certainly can be improved.

 

And I already blew this "casual player" assumption out of the water in a previous post.

 

If BW dont fixed this, this game will continue slowly die. Look on the population of pure pvp servers - they are all slowly decreased.

 

This game is not dying. Based on EA's last quarterly report, SWTOR is performing quite well with the expectation that this positive performance will continue into 2013.

 

I don't play much on The Bastion anymore, but the PvP population on Jung Ma has grown slightly. With the first Gree event, there was actually a surge of players who returned to the game. Most of those who came back, and belong to my guild, have actually stuck around. Last night we ran RWZs as a Server and had at least 6 teams participating which is the most I can recall since just after the release of 1.2.

 

However, I don't have access to hard statistics or numbers on this issue. If you do have access to such information, please do enlighten me with the data.

[Achyllis]

I'll fight anyone. Playing better, more organized groups makes you better if you pay attention and learn.

 

Players who won't organize and listen deserve to lose. So yeah I prefer to go with a guild group when possible because there is accountability and genuine commitment.

 

As has been stated - queues would be too long if you further split the playerbase.

 

Finally this is objective based MMO PvP. If you want CoD or Halo death matches go play them.

[FearlessTeapot]

Not at all. The fact of the matter is that a WZ is competitive match play. Additionally, WZs are objective-based and designed around team coordination. As a result, players that play better as a team will have more success in the combat environment. It's really very basic.

 

Playing "solo" actually runs against the team format. Now that is not to say solo queuing is not a viable playstyle. This is a game, players pay their sub, BW makes it possible to solo queue, and they can choose to play how they wish. However, asking BW to transform a team play objective-based PvP environment into a haven for solos doesn't make much sense, especially in a MMO where social interaction is not only encouraged, but largely expected.

 

It may appear that way from your solo pugging angle. However, I must say that I'm more inclined to accept the statement of an actual BW Developer to your internal premade detector.

 

Firstly, I question this assumption that "casuals" all play as solo puggers in WZs. I seriously doubt there are many casuals playing this game that don't play with someone they know; whether guildmates, online acquaintenances or RL friends. Casual players are defined by the amount of time they spend playing the game, not a solo, pugging style. All of the casuals I'm familiar with in SWTOR each play with someone (wife, gf, bf, brother, rl friend), and they play grouped that way in all varieties of the content they play; FPs, WZs and dailies.

 

So I do not concede that the casual player base is hurt by premades in WZs. In fact, based on Gabe's statement it is highly likely that casuals actually constitute the majority of the premades in WZs and prefer to play the content in that manner.

 

 

 

I just see no need for separate queues. I'm not opposed to them being there, but I would rather BW put their energy into developing more WZs and OPvP content.

 

And this coming from someone that rarely runs regs at 50 anymore (I only run RWZs on my two Imp 50s), and I solo the majority of the time on my lowbies, mainly because everyone in my guild is 50 and doesn't really roll alts at this stage.

Seeing as you chose to ignore most of the points I made, I'll end it with this.

 

It clearly is a big problem for a lot of players. You openly admitted that Pugs get wrecked by premades, and that you don't have a problem with splitting the queues... therefore, we have no reason to argue.

[Thrasymicus]

So if I want to do a WZ with my fiance or 1-2 of my friends I should be forced to find 5-6 other people to do a ranked queue? No thanks...

 

Also, a lot of the "premades" are terrible guildies who queue together who aren't even on VOIPs. If you are having that hard of a time get a friend or two to queue with and get on a VOIP. It makes things so much more fun.

[amcquain]

Hi. I am fairly new to this game and this is my first post so I'll try to keep it short and sweet.

 

I disagree with the banning of all premades to just ranked matches, bad idea. If you want to group up with friends have at it! The more the merrier! This is an MMO and that should not change. If i want to group up with some friends and have some fun in a pvp match, why should you say otherwise? I agree with that logic 100%, and anyone who does not should find another game.

 

Now on the other hand, hopping on for a quick match or two in solo queue before bed is horrible. I will usually get trucked by the guild Wook Jr. I am not calling the guild out as being unfair by any means. They are playing the game as intended and are being used merely as an example for the sake of this topic. They have great skills and communication and can just dominate a game. It is not the lack of skills of the guys I have been paired with, and I would like to think it is not my lack of skills, but when they can call out incs faster and I have at least 3 or 4 people able to react immediately through vent (which they have posted that they use, just for people who think I am speculating) things tend to become uneven.

 

I am not posting this to QQ about losing to a premade group or to call out Wook Jr. as being cheaters or anything of the sort, but...would it be so horrible to add a queue for people who only want to queue with other pugs? This is a real question, and I'm asking honestly. Would it break queue times all together? Would premade groups stop running if they could not stomp on pugs? Leave the queue the way it is, just add a separate queue for people who want to queue up with 15 other randoms. You still have team work, and you still have objectives. It will still be a multiplayer experience and requires skill and communication to win. It would just cut down on the amount of curb stomping some of us get when we do queue up alone.

 

And before I go, I do see some of the problems with the queue. One of the biggest being a group of 4 and a group of 3 looking for someone that queued by themselves in that bracket. But if people stick by what they say and love the challenge of going against premades, then it should not be a huge problem, just a little longer queue.

 

Sorry if this is not the right place for this reply, very new to forum posting as well! Thanks all and have a nice day!

[Bullsith]

Ok, people casually teaming up to play with friends is understandable, but don't defend IWIN premades that literally farm randoms. Even one IWIN group is acceptable, but with two, it's just impossible to win simply because you lack the class setup to compete, everything else aside.

 

PVP in this game has enough issues, it does not need this one.

[Never_Hesitate]

Ok, people casually teaming up to play with friends is understandable, but don't defend IWIN premades that literally farm randoms. Even one IWIN group is acceptable, but with two, it's just impossible to win simply because you lack the class setup to compete, everything else aside.

 

PVP in this game has enough issues, it does not need this one.

 

How do you keep the two kinds apart?

When I group in a premade, we do want to win, but we are also casual, so are we the first or the second type?

[sanchito]

Ok, people casually teaming up to play with friends is understandable, but don't defend IWIN premades that literally farm randoms. Even one IWIN group is acceptable, but with two, it's just impossible to win simply because you lack the class setup to compete, everything else aside.

 

PVP in this game has enough issues, it does not need this one.

 

Thing is, imo, that 90% of premades are friends casually teaming up, and the rest are your IWIN premades.

 

I believe this whole discussion is wrong, it should be about not pitting noob / ungeared / casual players against highly skilled and geared veterans, premade or not has nothing to do with it. The way i see it is if a team has significantly more top tier players it usually wins, no matter how these players ended up together.

 

A few days back i got into a huttball game where on my team, 5 of the 8 were mains from top ranked teams, and all 8 of us were pugging. It ended 6:0 after 4 minutes and the enemy team had 16 players on the scoreboard at the end. Some of them might be complaining about premades in this very thread when in fact they just got unlucky and faced an uber pug

 

What we need is some sort of matchmaking that matches teams by overall strength (as a function of gear and skill i suppose). If the players are in a premade or not should be of secondary concern as long as the teams are balanced over all.

[SpaniardInfinity]

I believe this whole discussion is wrong, it should be about not pitting noob / ungeared / casual players against highly skilled and geared veterans, premade or not has nothing to do with it. The way i see it is if a team has significantly more top tier players it usually wins, no matter how these players ended up together.

 

I agree. If Bioware's got the tech, they could also consider adding in-game voice to warzones (they could add it elsewhere, but one thing at a time). This would solve the communication problem. And if trolling/spamming is suspected to be a problem, just do what most FPS games do these days: add in a personal UI that allows you to modify each person's voice level from max to mute at your own discretion. Putting players on your ignore list automatically are muted by default. An option to turn of voice entirely could also be done. Another choice would be to add a "ping" feature for the map but, honestly, the map needs a bit of an overhaul first.

[Znodd]

As a member of a guild that has a lot of pvp activity both in the 10-49 and 50 brackets i can only say that when i team with guildies i PREFER to play against other premades, it is more fun if the match is a close one after all. The worst games are those where you instantly get the feeling that your opponents give up, quit and so on. Contrary to popular belief it is not much fun playing matches and winning huge over and over against opponents that has no chance of winning. It gets old really quick.

 

And there is ofc bad premades vs good PUGs, i have seen plenty of those. I often get the feeling that players give up too soon when they see a premade on the opposing side if they do not have one of their own. That is unfortunate. I have won plenty of games with PUG's against premades - not all premades are good. I think quite often it is just a bunch of guildies who decides to get the daily done together socially. Those teams can routinely be beat by a team of randoms with some good players.

 

Personally i would like the game to match premades against each other as a first priority. I have no idea if the game already does that, some ppl says it does, others that it doesn't. I would be willing to accept some kind of bolster bonus to opposing teams that are completely PUG vs team with premade, extra rewards for playing a game even if you lose or even that they could get an extra player or something. A separate queu for the premades would also be ok with me, and apart from fears of long waiting times i can't really see a problem with that.That would ofc "punish" the "casual" premades, those who play very occasionally but somewhere along the line someone has to get the ugly end of the stick anyway i guess.