BaronV Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 So im only just reading up on upcoming changes in 2.0 at Dulfy (http://dulfy.net/2013/02/22/swtor-commendations-system-in-patch-2-0/) and if im understanding this right Tionese, Columi and Rakata are going to be totally obsolete and have their vendors removed and Black Hole is going to become the new ENTRY LEVEL gear for Lvl 50?? I mean whats up with that?? It totally nullifies all the grinding ever done and I dont see it serving any purpose other than to punish people who do not purchase RotHC (like myself). Why the need to make the older gear obsolete entirely?? I mean its not like the lvl 50 content is getting harder. There isnt any need to remove them at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_preib Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ahhh another of these. Games based on the vertical progression model almost all do a gear reset with any level change/expansion. Higher end gear then becomes enough to effectively level your character and get you started at the new endgame acting as something of a tier 0 (better then at level world drops but below the new tier 1). Without this a game becomes a divide between established and newcomers that is ultimately harmful as new content becomes either trivial to one group or inaccessible to the other. A reset every 18-24 months serves the purpose of leveling the playing field. This game is a vertical progression game, which means it is a model that does this 95%+ of the time. If folks wish to argue their dislike for a vertical progression model in favor of a more sandboxy one with far more horizontal elements that is fine, but it is not what this game is. To find err with this one specifically would be akin to complaining that a medieval fantasy game should have more science fiction elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I mean whats up with that?? Vertical progression, AKA Grindfest Extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaronV Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) Ahhh another of these. Games based on the vertical progression model almost all do a gear reset with any level change/expansion. Higher end gear then becomes enough to effectively level your character and get you started at the new endgame acting as something of a tier 0 (better then at level world drops but below the new tier 1). Without this a game becomes a divide between established and newcomers that is ultimately harmful as new content becomes either trivial to one group or inaccessible to the other. A reset every 18-24 months serves the purpose of leveling the playing field. This game is a vertical progression game, which means it is a model that does this 95%+ of the time. If folks wish to argue their dislike for a vertical progression model in favor of a more sandboxy one with far more horizontal elements that is fine, but it is not what this game is. To find err with this one specifically would be akin to complaining that a medieval fantasy game should have more science fiction elements. Thats well and fine but your statement doesnt really address the issue i raised about the content not becoming harder if you dont buyRotHC. I suppose i should have articulated it more clearly rather than a simple one liner. My main is currently in full black hole which makes say running HM FPs a breeze (but not too easy that its not fun). But with 2.0 every new 50 will start out with BH gear - this serves no purpose at all. You just enter 50 and you get (essentially) top tier gear to start off your flashpoints. A better way to do it would be to remove columi and rakata, leaving tionese as the entry level gear. Then new 50s work their way up to BH and beyond. The way its currently implemented just seems designed to push you into RotHC stuff or actively punish those who dont purchase it since you are unable to move to the new higher tier gears (only available as unassembled stuff obtained from Lvl 51-55 content) Edited February 28, 2013 by BaronV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandrashu Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Removing these sets is not a good idea. They should just make a few to changes to the drops/comms and then you could feel the progression starting with some easier ops and and then in time you could get the better tier ones. This way you'd have the feeling that you are achieving something. I think after some time nobody is going to do the easier ops anymore. The RotHC drops will probably be better so, ppl will just skip these and grind up to 55 in no time. I may be wrong though. I have just returned to the game after a year, so the last ops I saw were EV and KP in hard mode. I liked them. I think they are an easy way to learn how to operate in ops and good practice for new teams/guilds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RixoFutu Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Honestly. Who don't buy it? 10 bucks is just nothing. Everybody will get expansion sooner or a bit later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Well OP, I see your point. The only sets with the old gear (columi, rakata, etc.) ratings will be those you have on or in cargo presumably. And as StoryMode Ops and FPs will drop Black Hole and any commendations you receive will apply to the equivalent of Black Hole or better, then yes. Black Hole will be the Level 50 starter gear if you want to progress any further. But... I don't see how it punishes you in particular if you don't choose to purchase Makeb. From what I'm reading, you will be able to stay where you are and run the Ops and FPs at 50 to your hearts content. Your gear progression will stop, eventually. And you will be capped. But if you enjoy running level 50 content only, there will be no shortage of groups running the content. Now... if you want to continue your progress gear wise, well then you do have to buy the expansion aka dlc aka update. Why? Because, as you pointed out yourself, there would be little point, after a while, in running level 50 content with Elite gear for example. Why would you progress gear wise if you are not going to run the higher level content? There would be little challenge in doing so. So are they forcing you to buy Makeb? It would be disingenuous to say there aren't clear advantages gear wise and story wise in doing so. But... if you should choose not too, you can continue run the level 50 content with the gear you have or acquire. It will be easier to acquire, but it will be your choice to stay where you are. And who knows, there maybe a way to unlock certain aspects of gear and level cap progression with Cartel Coins. Personally... even though I can grind with the best of them, level 50 content is not enough once patch 2.0 goes live. I want everything Makeb has to offer and will gladly pay the 10 bucks for full and unrestricted access to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_preib Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Honestly. Who don't buy it? 10 bucks is just nothing. Everybody will get expansion sooner or a bit later. This, the redesign is built around being a tier 0 for level 55 endgame, displacing level 50 endgame content. The idea is to compel the maximum percentage of the player base to pick up the expansion by reshaping endgame around that. I am not saying I am all for this approach (nor entirely against it) but it is logical given the circumstance. The simplicity is to provide an accessible gateway for level 55 content, something columi drops and BH com grinding would not offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptianFordo Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 This is just a gear reset. Now all of my guild can raid together as a whole come 2.0---everyone will be on an equal bench mark... now our hard mode and normal mode teams won't be separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 You don't get a free set of BH like we did with Tionese, so calm down, relax... take a pill. BH will be dropping from KP and EV SM's and Hazmat from HM's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyreece Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 What happens if you have an unassembled piece (Columi, Rakata, etc.) in your inventory? Anyone know what those can be turned in for in 2.0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 What happens if you have an unassembled piece (Columi, Rakata, etc.) in your inventory? Anyone know what those can be turned in for in 2.0? Save the unassembled stuff, you turn them in for comms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyreece Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) Save the unassembled stuff, you turn them in for comms Sweet! Thanks! Edited February 28, 2013 by johnnyreece typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikHar Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) This is just a gear reset. Now all of my guild can raid together as a whole come 2.0---everyone will be on an equal bench mark... now our hard mode and normal mode teams won't be separated. And everyone who busted their tails to gear up really good will be screwed. Players like this are not at fault that others are not well geared. BioWare is just copying wow in many of the coming changes. Notice how they're changing different things for no purpose other then making changes for the sake of making them. From skills to armor, all going downhill and for no good reasons. This game has always been a mirror of Blizzards and now with the upcoming changes, you'll swear you was playing Wow if you closed your eyes. Elder Scrolls on-line can't come out soon enough. Edited March 1, 2013 by RikHar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillack Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 This is just a gear reset. Now all of my guild can raid together as a whole come 2.0---everyone will be on an equal bench mark... now our hard mode and normal mode teams won't be separated. You'd think there would be more posts like this ^ And I'm someone who has been trying to grind BH, etc in my limited time....but I'm not complaining about all the time it has taken me so far to get to what I have at the moment. ------------------------------------------ Vertical progression OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbayer Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 It won't matter if your purchase the expansion, the BH gear will drop from ops you have access to now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 And everyone who busted their tails to gear up really good will be screwed. Players like this are not at fault that others are not well geared. BioWare is just copying wow in many of the coming changes. Notice how they're changing different things for no purpose other then making changes for the sake of making them. From skills to armor, all going downhill and for no good reasons. This game has always been a mirror of Blizzards and now with the upcoming changes, you'll swear you was playing Wow if you closed your eyes. Skyrim can't come out soon enough. Screwed how? Because others will be able to get the same gear as them a bit easier now that it's not the best? That sounds quite horrible to imagine. Also, I'm not sure why you're looking forward to a single player game as an alternative for SWTOR, but I'm happy to tell you that Skyrim is already out, and has been for over a year. Rejoice, your wait is over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirorx Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) BH will be the new lower tier but it will also be easier to obtain and flashpoints will remain so BH will still be an awesome set for most PvE. Basically we are just getting new sets and easier ways to obtain the stuff that's already available Your BH gear will still be very viable there will just be better gear for newer tougher content Edited February 28, 2013 by kirorx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickyNinja Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 And everyone who busted their tails to gear up really good will be screwed. Players like this are not at fault that others are not well geared. BioWare is just copying wow in many of the coming changes. Notice how they're changing different things for no purpose other then making changes for the sake of making them. From skills to armor, all going downhill and for no good reasons. This game has always been a mirror of Blizzards and now with the upcoming changes, you'll swear you was playing Wow if you closed your eyes. Skyrim can't come out soon enough. I'm not sure how you would be screwed by the change. Think about how long it took to grind for full campaign/hazmat gear. Now think about having to do that with every character before you can start to run your class quests to get to level 55. It only makes sense. Also, they are getting rid of the set bonuses attached to the shells that you have with Tionese/Columi/Rakata and going to them all being tied to the armor mods so you can use whatever gear you want and still get the set bonus. This is an improvement in my mind so we don't have the "clone wars". That's not skills and armor going downhill but actually improving upon the original design. And how can they add new levels without adding new skills and skill points? The new skills will provide new abilities and combat mechanics and give people something work on learning and tweaking new rotations, which is a challenge many people enjoy and why they play the game. These are new challenges and new content to keep people interested, playing the game, and paying for subs. Change is going to happen, deal with it. You need to be able to adapt or you can stay at 50, not buy the expansion. Just don't come back and complain more once you max everything out and get tired of the same content over and over with no gear or skill progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 And everyone who busted their tails to gear up really good will be screwed. Players like this are not at fault that others are not well geared. BioWare is just copying wow in many of the coming changes. Notice how they're changing different things for no purpose other then making changes for the sake of making them. From skills to armor, all going downhill and for no good reasons. This game has always been a mirror of Blizzards and now with the upcoming changes, you'll swear you was playing Wow if you closed your eyes. Skyrim can't come out soon enough. The problem I see with these complaints about gear reset is it really doesn't matter. Yes, you grinded and obtained all this elite gear. But with most expansions, what does this mean? You get a better drop the first enemy you take down and loot That hard to obtain gear was created at the thought of level 50 being the highest level. Now, 55 is the highest level, and it wouldn't make much sense to put the new level cap at 55, and then tell players "You have to level to 50, stop and grind out for new gear, AND THEN continue to level to 55" They need to set it up so people can continue smoothly to the level cap, and then grind for the elite gear. Why? Because not every player is looking to get all the elite gear and run harder FPs/OPs...ect...ect. Some just want to get to the level cap and stick to more basic fun things without all the hassle of hardmodes. Why would they want that? Well for one thing, ever notice how a lot of people interrested in hardmodes (at least when it comes to the forums, but you see it in game as well) cry non-stop when a hardmode fails. Why would anyone want to team with what seems to be a prevalent type of player who can't handle losing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldRepJedi Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) In addition to the gear resets, Artificers and Cybertech will be able to train to make the tionese, columi , and BH armors, mods and enhancements. Synthweavers will be able to craft tionese/columi/rakata type shells also. Edited February 28, 2013 by OldRepJedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbkrbk Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Screwed how? Because others will be able to get the same gear as them a bit easier now that it's not the best? That sounds quite horrible to imagine. Also, I'm not sure why you're looking forward to a single player game as an alternative for SWTOR, but I'm happy to tell you that Skyrim is already out, and has been for over a year. Rejoice, your wait is over! I think he was referring to Elder Scrolls Online...which might as well be Skyrim online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandraMoody Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 The grind in this game is a total joke compared to others. Starter gear for FPs given to you once you hit 50 and easily gotten WH gear you can use in the normal HM FPs while you grind up comms for the others. Doesn't even take years only weeks or a couple months at the very most. I know people in other games who have it alot worse. Personally I thought the tion/colum/raka gear was substandard and could be a bit confusing to new 50s who don't know what gear goes for what FPs/Ops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Well... I think, from what I read in the OP, the player is complaining that those that worked their butt off to progress at 50 and choose not to purchase the expansion will be screwed. I don't think that is the case if you want to stay at 50. You just stay there and keep playing until you have had enough. But really, in thinking about it a bit more, the gear progression will change the expectations of those of us who will purchase Makeb and consequently the have a new cap. The baseline will be BH but only for a little while. The baseline for 55L content will be 55L Basic gear set. Comms and gear gathered on the way will be toward that end. I know there are many crying about the comms conversions especially when it comes to Classic gear. But... Classic won't be in the cross-airs anymore. Not for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickyNinja Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 But really, in thinking about it a bit more, the gear progression will change the expectations of those of us who will purchase Makeb and consequently the have a new cap. The baseline will be BH but only for a little while. The baseline for 55L content will be 55L Basic gear set. Comms and gear gathered on the way will be toward that end. I know there are many crying about the comms conversions especially when it comes to Classic gear. But... Classic won't be in the cross-airs anymore. Not for me. ^^ This. Seeing too many people complaining about this when the Classic gear will not be what people are targeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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