Gniev Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) I do admit that I might be biased on that topic (as one who just likes to tank all sorts of ****), but why would it be a bad idea to make those stats, available on tanking pvp gear, actually good stats for pvp tanking classes? Of course they do have some impact, but it is one of the worst tradeoffs you can make in this game in term of gearing up when alternative is to just use dps gear and roll with basically the same survivability (not sure if anyone ever died from white damage), but much higher kick? Dps speccs of tank-able AC's can pull what - half of protection deditated tank can do? When they use just taunts. I dont think I've ever seen a tank who could pull half of dedicated dps damage. Considering that tank damage in tanking gear is laughable (speaking mainly from vanguard short and very painfull experiment), why are they barely harder to kill than a dps? I have a problem understanding why would that be a good idea to gimp this game's rocks - its not like they bring much more utility than most dps classes who also bring their... well... dps. It's really nothing new, and I am not the first one who asks the question... still hope to be the first one to hear some answer . Edited February 16, 2013 by Gniev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klham Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 There's a lot of balance issues in PvP. That one's a biggie. Not sure if they can change this without totally throwing all the PvE content out of wack. It would be great if they could enable / disable certain things for PvP combat - like making shield/absorb apply to all attack types, making armor apply to all damage types, making Smash crits single-target only, and disabling AoE cc for non-stealth, or what have you. Unfortunately, the result of the chronic imbalance is that only certain specs really work well in PvP. As a result, you see the same cookie-cutter specs everywhere (Pryo-pwrtechs, smash juggs, etc.). But my hat is off for those who take on the challenge of playing non-fotm specs & advanced classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowflab Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) I don't seem to have the same disdain for PvP tanking stats that others seem to have. At 38%+ damage reduction, 30% defense, 59% shield(with dark ward up), 44% absorb, shortened cd force shroud, deflection, a med pack, snare breaker sprint to wz health packs, overcharge heal, and force lightning heal on my tanksin I'm tough enough to bring down as it is. If they buffed them even more I'd be nigh unstoppable against most classes in the game. The stats DO make a difference(trust me on this one, playing the same spec in dps gear is night and day) but knowing when and how to use your active mitigation is what separates the wannabes from the true PvP tanks. Edited February 16, 2013 by Cowflab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatterstar Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I don't seem to have the same disdain for PvP tanking stats that others seem to have. At 38%+ damage reduction, 30% defense, 59% shield(with dark ward up), 44% absorb, shortened cd force shroud, deflection, a med pack, snare breaker sprint to wz health packs, overcharge heal, and force lightning heal on my tanksin I'm tough enough to bring down as it is. If they buffed them even more I'd be nigh unstoppable against most classes in the game. The stats DO make a difference(trust me on this one, playing the same spec in dps gear is night and day) but knowing when and how to use your active mitigation is what separates the wannabes from the true PvP tanks. Those things are true for your tanksin, but are not nearly the same for a PT/Vanguard tank. We really rely on our shields normally for most of our mitigation, and to help control our heat build up. But they are virtually useless in pvp, which really gimps our mitigation, and as a side effect our dps due to heat build-up. Even if it was a talent high in the tree to make shields work on force/tech (even at max 50%), this would be a huge improvement from where things are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackNader Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I suggest this as a fix a while ago. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5781093#post5781093 It's still received very little feedback or suggestions on how to improve the mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gniev Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Even if it was a talent high in the tree to make shields work on force/tech (even at max 50%), this would be a huge improvement from where things are now. This would be a very nice change, and an incentive to go deeper into the trees. Regarding PvE vs PvP: I am pretty sure it is still possible to change it just for other players attacks without gimping the bosses. Perhaps tankasin can still pull out serious damage in tanking gear, but vanguard can not, and the defensive cd's are kinda worst of everything I've ever seen in an MMO. Granted - I never seen any other class in full tanking pvp gear other than vanguard, and man - it hurts when your damage drops 50-60%, and you get like... 7-8% more survivability? Edited February 16, 2013 by Gniev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 the biggest issue with tank stats in PvP is that force/tech attacks cannot be defensed/shielded afaik. this is a big problem because the large majority of hard hitting abilities are force/tech. if i were to make a PvP tank, i would stack as much endurance as i could and get my base mitigation (armor + expertise) as high as it could go. that is really your only sure thing as far as defensive stats go. this is probably why you see a lot of tanks wearing DPS gear in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volander Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 As i said before, making tank unkillable make WZ completely unplayable. The game so it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gniev Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 As i said before, making tank unkillable make WZ completely unplayable. The game so it is. So it's better to remove them whatsoever and make them inferior dps with guard ability? Not to mention that: a) what you sait before doesnt seem all that important after all (Care to back up your argument a bit more?), and b) who said anything about making them unkillable in the first place? My question is - is current state of tanking in pvp the way it was intended? Where there is very minor difference between tank and dps, which boils down to different augments, quite a lot lower dps, and guard ability (again - speaking from vanguard territory, as I've never seen a piece of tanking gear on other classes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankqull Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) as seen with the different ways forcelift works in pvp and pve different rulesets are possible. so in terms of pvp - change: defensive rating: able to neglect any incoming dmg but restricted to 1 succes every second. shield rating: reduced effectivity in pvp 300-350point = 20-25% shielding chance to every dmg type and crits can be shielded as well. guard: dmg transferred to the tank should be additionally mitigated by his armor mitigation ae-taunt: only usable in tank stance defenserating increase abilitys reduced by 50% so former + 50% blade barrier wil turn to +25% for every class the skill is available. Edited February 16, 2013 by Tankqull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volander Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 My question is - is current state of tanking in pvp the way it was intended?. Yes and no. I came in SWTOR from Warhammer. And i miss my unbreakable ironbreaker dwarf so much, and i feel your pain but.. The player will see only one problem and not see whole picture. You remade tank mechanics and now no one can cap the objective because one tank can hold spot as long to reinforcement came to prevent capping. In this game almost no PVP than WZ. Take tank to unkillable level kill PVP entirely. If you propose to change tank mechanics, try to propose change to whole game. We are already quite enough smash spec. The game goes on. I look forward to Makeb patch, dataminded Information encouraging. Be patient, it may be not so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gniev Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Aye, but this doesn't apply if tanks survivability is balanced correctly, that is - to the point that perhaps 2 people with equal gear and skill will need luck to take the node, but if they are good, or better geared, or they are 3, they will make it. Please consider that you will not retake one using tanks, so to me it'd be a proper balance: very little offensive capabilities for good defensive ones. Another problem is gearing options - right now the trade between dps and survivability is rather horrible. To make fx. supercommando set viable they'd have to either do what this topic suggests - that is expand defense and shield skills viability, or get rid of these whatsoever and instead of fancy crit chance, power and what not, they should put pure endurance and expertise there . Which would probably be far worse idea after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalhazar Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I am one of "those" juggs who runs endurance+defense stats in PvP, which is widely considered to be sub-optimal. I think that something needs to change, but I don't think a buff to survivability is it: as others have mentioned, a buff to survivability will make a big difference re: objective defense. No, what needs to happen is: tank stats ought to help us defend others better. Let taunts and intercede scale with defense. Let guard scale with shield/absorb. Etc, etc. I guarantee that this will make tank stats more desirable in PvP without overpowering tank TTL. Please, please consider this idea before dismissing it. Tanking in TOR pvp is as much about support as it is about living a long time. A dps-spec, dps-geared guardian currently has just as much protection potential as a fully tank geared and specced guardian. That is... off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaldoA Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I don't seem to have the same disdain for PvP tanking stats that others seem to have. At 38%+ damage reduction, 30% defense, 59% shield(with dark ward up), 44% absorb, shortened cd force shroud, deflection, a med pack, snare breaker sprint to wz health packs, overcharge heal, and force lightning heal on my tanksin I'm tough enough to bring down as it is. If they buffed them even more I'd be nigh unstoppable against most classes in the game. The stats DO make a difference(trust me on this one, playing the same spec in dps gear is night and day) but knowing when and how to use your active mitigation is what separates the wannabes from the true PvP tanks. A DPS can roll the tank tree and basically get everything you can. I play full tank/hybrid tank tree alot on my DPS geared sin and I enjoy the survivability from it. There's not much use for tank stats in PvP at the moment although it is fun to block knights/warriors jumps etc. though, the trade for having some extra defense and losing a ton of DPS isn't for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gniev Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 No, what needs to happen is: tank stats ought to help us defend others better. Let taunts and intercede scale with defense. Let guard scale with shield/absorb. Etc, etc. I guarantee that this will make tank stats more desirable in PvP without overpowering tank TTL. That is an absolutely awesome idea . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikassi Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 have you ever heard of the bubble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gniev Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 have you ever heard of the bubble? What about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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