Pay to Win? The Cartel Market

[Craftamancer]

A long time ago in a Galaxy far far away, I had the expectation that SWTOR would not allow players to "pay to win".

 

When Free to Play was announced, I was fine with the idea. Afterall, allowing new players to experience the storyline of SWTOR might very well hook them on the game and increase subscriptions. The Cartel Market never worried me because I had seen similar ideas in other subscription MMOs, and buying from the online cash only store never affected your game play.

 

What I didn't expect was the ability purchase items on the cash only store that could be sold on the GTN. In some games, even that would not have had as big an impact as in SWTOR, because in those other games there's an extremely limited amount of gear that is useful in end game content that can be purchased for in game currency.

 

In SWTOR, PVE content is completed using gear that can be purchased, in its entirety, from crafters selling on the GTN. What about the set bonus? Well, in other games with an armor set bonus, this would be a problem. In SWTOR, you are given commendations enough to purchase a complete set of Tionese gear at level 50, all of which can be upgraded to the latest standard of gear while maintaining the set bonus. Or you could get the same from running a week's worth of flashpoints and operations.

 

To summarize, in game currency is now sufficient to purchase the highest tier of gear for all PVE content. Since you can sell Cartel Market items for outlandish sums on the GTN, it is very easy for someone to turn real money into in game currency and then into in game items that improve their performance.

 

This is, of course, what is meant by Pay to Win. The only thing worse, and less subtle than the route Bioware has chosen to follow, would be to include the highest tier mods in the armor they sell on the Cartel Market. Bioware has chosen the smarter route, which is to allow players to handle the exchange themselves, thus avoiding the immediate ire of everyone who hates pay to win.

 

Bioware understands very well that if they were to make the cash shop items Bind on Pickup, rather than Bind on Equip, their revenue might drop. A significant portion of the purchases made on the Cartel Market go straight to the GTN, and that would no longer be possible. That said, as a counter argument, even more real money purchases might arise, because players in the game wouldn't be able to spend their in game credits to purchase them, and might actually want a lot of what is being offered, and therefore be forced to pay real money for it.

 

The Pay to Win practice pushes away players who play for the love of the game. It is especially disheartening when you see introductions to the GTN like the new speeder with protection against falling off that exceeds speeder piloting III. Only an incredibly small portion of the SWOTR population can receive a mount with a similar ability by playing the game (the NiM Denova Tank Mount), and even that is a matter of luck, since it is a rare drop.

 

As it now stands, you can purchase everything used for space content and PVE content using either directly or indirectly purchased goods. Only PVP gear is sacred at this point in time (other than the expertise crystal), and it would not surprise me to see the introduction of a Cartel Market item that allowed players to get around the valor limitation as well.

 

Furthermore, Cartel Market items tread on the corpse of Legacy, allowing players to purchase Legacy only unlocks using cartel coins instead of credits. I wouldn't mind this particularly if it wasn't for the fact that in doing so they also eliminated the requirement of Legacy Level to use these perks, and have not bothered to introduce any Legacy Level perks over level 25. Nor have they kept any of the Legacy level perks sacrosanct to Legacy. If you have money, rather than time, you can simply purchase them with cash and ignore the effort level normally required to earn such rewards.

 

This wholesale approach to this game via the Cartel Market has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm not ditching my subscription just yet. I've enjoyed previous Bioware games, and respect the quality they normally bring to the table. However, I am becoming more and more certain that the long time players, those who would pay a subscription for 10 years straight in return for quality, are not the players Bioware is currently catering to.

 

I could go on to list bug fixes left undone since launch, UI features that are so basic that they should never have left Beta without them, etc, but in reality, my chief complaint is the Cartel Market. I'm not interested in Pay to Win. The rest of the stuff, even a ready check, I can improvise around. I'm having difficulty coming to terms with a subscription game where you can simply buy your gear with real money.

 

What do you think?

[Desolaytore]

Credits will not buy you dread guard gear. The CC gives you empty armor, some sets like the destroyer has mods in it but then again they only last for a few levels. So no, no pay to win. If you could pay to win then I wouldnt be grinding dailies and ops >_>

[nysis]

The Pay to Win practice pushes away players who play for the love of the game.

 

Multiple paths to the same goal. Nothings pushing you away

[Alandross]

This game is far from pay to win. I honestly think the cartel market has kept itself pretty good to only empower people spending extra real money to get vanity based things for the most part.

 

Nearly everything you can pay cartel coins you can pay direct credits for. On top of that most of everything else people resell in the GTN for credits anyways.

 

In fact the Cartel market has made credits in game more valuable in a lot of ways for players who don't buy anything out of CC, such as ridiculously cheap adaptive speeders. Wish they were that cheap when I maxed my char out in the first couple weeks of the game lol.

[Craftamancer]

Credits will not buy you dread guard gear. The CC gives you empty armor, some sets like the destroyer has mods in it but then again they only last for a few levels. So no, no pay to win. If you could pay to win then I wouldnt be grinding dailies and ops >_>

 

Every currently available dread guard armoring, mod and enhancement, hilt and barrel, can be purchased with in game credits. The set bonus can be had via the free tionese commendations received at level 50.

 

Hence, you can sell Cartel Market items for in game credits, then use those credits to purchase maxed out gear.

 

Pay to Win.

[Kavu]

sorry I couldn't stand to read the whole QQ, is this someone else crying taht the new mounts Bonus vs. knockoff is P2W?

[Craftamancer]

sorry I couldn't stand to read the whole QQ, is this someone else crying taht the new mounts Bonus vs. knockoff is P2W?

 

The OP was an observation on the effects of the Cartel Market in its current iteration. Please refrain from posting in the thread if you are neither willing to read nor able to contribute.

[Alandross]

The whole paying money to buy CC items to sell for credits = pay to win is a really bad argument in my opinion. Every single MMO has gold farmers hence making every one pay to win... I'd rather Bioware take a cut to re-invest the money into their game.

[Craftamancer]

The whole paying money to buy CC items to sell for credits = pay to win is a really bad argument in my opinion. Every single MMO has gold farmers hence making every one pay to win... I'd rather Bioware take a cut to re-invest the money into their game.

 

Gold Farmers are not sanctioned by the MMOs in question, and gold farming via bots, hacking etc, even in this game, is a bannable offense.

 

Stating that it's ok because it's Bioware rather than gold farmers is hardly a valid argument.

 

In addition, as stated in my original post, in game currency in most games will not allow you to buy even a third of your gear. In SWTOR, you can purchase all of it.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Craftamancer

[Holinyx]

you guys have officially ran out of stuff to complain about.

[Craftamancer]

This game is far from pay to win. I honestly think the cartel market has kept itself pretty good to only empower people spending extra real money to get vanity based things for the most part.

 

Nearly everything you can pay cartel coins you can pay direct credits for. On top of that most of everything else people resell in the GTN for credits anyways.

 

In fact the Cartel market has made credits in game more valuable in a lot of ways for players who don't buy anything out of CC, such as ridiculously cheap adaptive speeders. Wish they were that cheap when I maxed my char out in the first couple weeks of the game lol.

 

You actually reiterated my post, but seem to think it's a positive thing. The fact that people are selling Cartel Market Items on the GTN is what makes this Pay to Win.

 

You are correct, it's easier than it was before. That does not, however, mean that it is better.

[Craftamancer]

Multiple paths to the same goal. Nothings pushing you away

 

Actually, as a player who plays the game in order to progress in the game, I do take exception to people being able to simply buy their way through the game with real money. I enjoy challenges, and it's nice to know that what I achieve in game is difficult. If there is no longer any difficulty involved, then I am no longer challenged, and I lose interest in the game.

 

So yes, allowing the alternate path of Pay to Win does reduce my satisfaction with the game and "push me away".

 

Just because you do not feel that way does not mean that it is not a valid feeling.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Craftamancer

[ItchyThePenguin]

Every currently available dread guard armoring, mod and enhancement, hilt and barrel, can be purchased with in game credits. The set bonus can be had via the free tionese commendations received at level 50.

 

Hence, you can sell Cartel Market items for in game credits, then use those credits to purchase maxed out gear.

 

Pay to Win.

 

I think you're stretching the definition of Pay to Win. I thought that Pay to Win meant that you would get an advantage that is impossible to obtain without going through the Market?

 

It's very possible to obtain Dread Guard gear without reselling Cartel Market items.

[Claymorsch]

Every currently available dread guard armoring, mod and enhancement, hilt and barrel, can be purchased with in game credits. The set bonus can be had via the free tionese commendations received at level 50.

 

Hence, you can sell Cartel Market items for in game credits, then use those credits to purchase maxed out gear.

 

Pay to Win.

 

[Currok]

Yea because everyone is going to spend hundreds of dollars on cartel market **** to sell then spend the 20 million credits or so it's going to cost to gear out their character......doubt it.

[AzraelCales]

What exactly in the Cartel Market helps you with end game stuff? Nothing.

 

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh164/flamesofentropy/invalidargument_zps5aad1608.jpg

[Urantia]

In my opinion it is "pay to win". At the very least the Cartel Market is an easy path to translate real world money to in-game credits. So if you have a lot of spare money, or are the sort that loves to go in debt by running up your credit card....you can make millions of credits in short order. Certainly you can make credits via the Cartel Market a lot faster than a player could before the Market was implemented {with zero grind}.

 

Suffice to say.....if you have played since launch, but did not purely focus on grinding credits {or playing the GTN} since then, a player could join tomorrow, buy a few packs....or get a lucky item and make more that you earned over a year lol.

 

The one thing the devs did right though, in my opinion, was labeled items from the market with the CM logo so you can see easily whom is paying for gear and whom is using what they craft and/or loot. Some of the new CM gear looks nice, but I still prefer some of the sets I have looted since lauch {I still hate the look of BH, Camp, Columi, etc like most players}.

 

We all know if the game was populated with people that can play more than 1 hour a day the subscription model would/may have had more success, but alas it was not so we get what we get. Personally I am still subbed and have never used the market for anything {as nothing has caught my eye yet}....and I have accepted the fact that a person can make more credits in "one day" {well as soon as they are allowed to sell it on the GTN} than I have earned in a whole year of play {regular non-credit farming play}. Hehe...sound like the real world.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Urantia

[SnoggyMack]

Every currently available dread guard armoring, mod and enhancement, hilt and barrel, can be purchased with in game credits. The set bonus can be had via the free tionese commendations received at level 50.

 

Hence, you can sell Cartel Market items for in game credits, then use those credits to purchase maxed out gear.

 

That's a prohibitive path. I mean, do the math, and think of how much money that's going to cost.

 

Pay to Win.

 

Also, since this is such a serious topic for you, I think it's important to define exactly what you mean by WIN. How do you WIN this game?

[SnoggyMack]

Actually, as a player who plays the game in order to progress in the game, I do take exception to people being able to simply buy their way through the game with real money.

 

If "progress" is how you measure you fun in the game, then you're fine. Because the Cartel Market doesn't sell levels.

 

So people still have to level through the content. They can sell all the revan's masks and pink purple eviscerating crystals they want, but they can't equip that Advanced Might Hilt 27 UNTIL they actually get to level 50.

 

Though you and they are both going to have to PAY Bioware money to level to 55 this year. So there is that.

Edited January 26, 2013 by SnoggyMack

[Craftamancer]

I think you're stretching the definition of Pay to Win. I thought that Pay to Win meant that you would get an advantage that is impossible to obtain without going through the Market?

 

It's very possible to obtain Dread Guard gear without reselling Cartel Market items.

 

Ahh, I understand where you're coming from. Pay to Win means that you can pay real money in order to gain an advantage in the game that you would normally only be able to gain by playing the game. For example, nothing currently offered in the cash shop would really be considered pay to win if it was all Bind On Pickup. It would be considered Vanity gear.

 

In the case of SWTOR, it is far quicker to gear a new level 50 via credits than via operations, if you have enough credits. The Cartel Market provides that source of credits, thereby making it Pay to Win.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Craftamancer

[Craftamancer]

If "progress" is how you measure you fun in the game, then you're fine. Because the Cartel Market doesn't sell levels.

 

So people still have to level through the content. They can sell all the revan's masks and pink purple eviscerating crystals they want, but they can't equip that Advanced Might Hilt 27 UNTIL they actually get to level 50.

 

Though you and they are both going to have to PAY Bioware money to level to 55 this year. So there is that.

 

When I speak of Progress, I'm speaking of End Game content. Perhaps I should have clarified that, but that's generally the accepted meaning when speaking of Progression in a MMO.

[Moza]

Well, I don't have any objections to the Cartel Store, and I'm happy with a lot of the gear that's become available. However, the key point made by the OP is absolutely true - through purchase and re-selling it is simple enough to convert Cartel Coins into in-game credits, and those credits can undeniably buy you top-tier endgame gear.

 

This is my situation: I hit 50 on my main in early 2012, and spent the summer grinding daily HM FPs and the Black Hole weekly to get Black Hole Commendations. I really enjoyed the gear progression, and was incredibly proud and satisfied when I found myself finally in full BH gear in every slot.

 

However, I still don't have a really decent mainhand weapon. Now, I have two choices: start going on Operations and hope one drops, or, now thanks to the Cartel Store, I have an alternative: buy the new podracer mount for a small amount of my real money, put it on the GTN for a few million credits, then buy a crafted L27 Barrel on the GTN (the credits I make from the sale of the podracer would certainly cover this cost).

 

Now, I'm not raging about this - in fact, I'm seriously considering doing it. My concern is how different the process is now, and how much less satisfying it might be to acquire a BiS weapon this way.

 

I'm not QQing, and I don't actually think this will have a negative impact on the game, but I do think the OP makes a key - and frankly undeniable - observation.

[Asuka]

How is Cartel armor that is lvl 31 that comes with level 29 mods pay to win?

[Craftamancer]

How is Cartel armor that is lvl 31 that comes with level 29 mods pay to win?

 

Please actually read my post.

[ItchyThePenguin]

Ahh, I understand where you're coming from. Pay to Win means that you can pay real money in order to gain an advantage in the game that you would normally only be able to gain by playing the game. For example, nothing currently offered in the cash shop would really be considered pay to win if it was all Bind On Pickup.

 

In the case of SWTOR, it is far quicker to gear a new level 50 via credits than via operations, if you have enough credits. The Cartel Market provides that source of credits, thereby making it Pay to Win.

 

Hmm, I understand what you mean, but I don't quite agree. I'll admit that selling Cartel Market items is a quick way to get credits (possibly the fastest), but then what about dailies and the like? I mean, this game throws credits at you all the time. Without really even trying it can be very easy to obtain the necessary credits to min/max your character in the best gear.