To all those demanding for more story content...

[Machine-Elf]

...Operations, flashpoints, class missions, etc...

 

I just want to let you know that the more they feed us this stuff, the less liable they are to refine the existing game.

Also, the less likely we are to ever see new classes (Sith Alchemist, Voss, what have you...).

 

So which is it? Perfect what we have currently in place, or demand for more of the same?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[limadoc]

You do realize how the make up of game companies works right? Content designers don't do bug fixes, and coders generally don't design content. Companies have both, so both get worked on, not one or the other.

[Goretzu]

...Operations, flashpoints, class missions, etc...

 

I just want to let you know that the more they feed us this stuff, the less liable they are to refine the existing game.

Also, the less likely we are to ever see new classes (Sith Alchemist, Voss, what have you...).

 

So which is it? Perfect what we have currently in place, or demand for more of the same?

 

 

 

We will never see new classes IMO, we may eventually see some new advanced classes (because they can share the L1-L50 Ch1-Ch3 class stories), but even them I wouldn't hold my breath for as there aren't many class archetypes that aren't already covered in SWTOR.

[Fornix]

New classes will not come frequently, every introduction of a new class will come with balance issues, etc. This means that it's hard for MMO's with both endgame PvE as well as PvP to throw in new classes of those. Extensive testing will be required. Beyond that it'll require it's own new line of content if it's a full new class rather than an AC.

 

Due to this it'll probably be something which will one day come in an expansion, not in form of a content patch.

[Machine-Elf]

You do realize how the make up of game companies works right? Content designers don't do bug fixes, and coders generally don't design content. Companies have both, so both get worked on, not one or the other.

 

Pazaak is content. Pet battles is content. Holo-chess, swoop-races, pvp-space battles, and more warzones is content, and none of these things with interfere with our chances of getting new classes.

 

And that's just sc****** the bottom of the barrel in terms of what the content this game could produce outside of the current model (more of the same: flashpoints, operations, etc...)

[Machine-Elf]

wow. They censored "s-c-r-a-p-i-n-g".

[Goretzu]

Due to this it'll probably be something which will one day come in an expansion, not in form of a content patch.

 

If SWTOR ever has a proper expansion that is likely where they would coem, unless more money can be made selling them on the Cashshop al la the Cathar.

[Machine-Elf]

New classes will not come frequently, every introduction of a new class will come with balance issues, etc..

I appreciate that. But what I'm saying is that if the player base keeps demanding for more story content, new classes will never come.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Khyle]

I don't think they will ever bother implementing new full-fledged classes. It just would take too much work.

 

Our best hopes are new advanced classes or some kind of "prestige class" (a la WoW's Death Knight) that starts its journey much later (level-wise) than the other classes.

[Goretzu]

I appreciate that. But what I'm saying is that if the player base keeps demanding for more story content, new classes will never come.

 

The switch from 8 class stories to 2 factional "class" stories with Makeb should have helped them with this, it cut down the story content they had to produce by 75%.

[DataBeaver]

...Operations, flashpoints, class missions, etc...

 

I just want to let you know that the more they feed us this stuff, the less liable they are to refine the existing game.

Also, the less likely we are to ever see new classes (Sith Alchemist, Voss, what have you...).

 

So which is it? Perfect what we have currently in place, or demand for more of the same?

Yes, I would like to have more stories, which are the one thing that makes this MMORPG stand out from all the rest. Of course existing bugs need to be fixed as well, but as noted, it's not mutually exclusive with creating more content.

 

I'd rather see the game expanded vertically with deeply involved, coherent storylines than horizontally into a mess of minigames which have nothing to do with each other except the Star Wars theme.

[Machine-Elf]

Yes, I would like to have more stories, which are the one thing that makes this MMORPG stand out from all the rest. Of course existing bugs need to be fixed as well, but as noted, it's not mutually exclusive with creating more content.

 

I'd rather see the game expanded vertically with deeply involved, coherent storylines than horizontally into a mess of minigames which have nothing to do with each other except the Star Wars theme.

You've got that horizontal/vertical thing the other way around.

Anyway, new classes would give you more story content than 20 flashpoints, 10 operations, and three Makebs.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[DataBeaver]

I appreciate that. But what I'm saying is that if the player base keeps demanding for more story content, new classes will never come.

Of course, you realize that in this game, a new class would essentially equal new story content for levels 1-50 of that class? Unless it's a new advanced class, in which case it won't really be all that different from the existing classes.

 

And what would the new class do? We already have all combinations of melee/ranged, heal/tank/dps and republic/imperial. I guess there could be roles that specialize in boosting other players or crowd control? A booster would likely be boring though, and a CC class will easily be overpowered, in both PvE and PvM. We also don't have a class that specializes in summoning, but given how every class has companions, it wouldn't really be all that unique.

[Fornix]

I appreciate that. But what I'm saying is that if the player base keeps demanding for more story content, new classes will never come.

 

Mwuah, not true. Plenty of games have released new classes along side of raids, pvp content, etc. BioWare is just as well able to do so if they decide to go for that route. As for more story content, that comes automatically with a new class anyway in a game such as this. And if they stick to factional content in the end for now, their class story content isn't getting exceedingly long to make for future classes.

[Machine-Elf]

Mwuah, not true. Plenty of games have released new classes along side of raids, pvp content, etc. .

Those games were not fully voiced.

 

Adding more flashpoints, class story, operations, would make the prospect of Bioware taking the time to design a new fully voiced class that much less feasible.

[Machine-Elf]

Of course, you realize that in this game, a new class would essentially equal new story content for levels 1-50 of that class?

Yes, I do. Read the post before yours.

[Przemo_No]

nope, no new classes, sorry.

Like what kind of class you can think of?

Jedi Bookkeeper?

Imperial Window Cleaner?

 

There are enough of them already.

More story content: ALWAYS welcome, ALWAYS!

Edited January 9, 2013 by Przemo_No
typos

[darklordpotter]

I appreciate that. But what I'm saying is that if the player base keeps demanding for more story content, new classes will never come.

 

Probably true - although I feel new base classes are unlikely anyway. And I am perfectly willing to accept that if we get new class story content for the classes already in game. As other people have pointed out nothing prevents additional advanced classes or skill trees being added only new base classes.

[darklordpotter]

I don't think they will ever bother implementing new full-fledged classes. It just would take too much work.

 

Our best hopes are new advanced classes or some kind of "prestige class" (a la WoW's Death Knight) that starts its journey much later (level-wise) than the other classes.

 

I agree with this and think that a prestige class idea could be a great deal of fun. Also take one internet cookie for the Doctor Who quote.

[Fornix]

Those games were not fully voiced.

 

Adding more flashpoints, class story, operations, would make the prospect of Bioware taking the time to design a new fully voiced class that much less feasible.

 

Being fully voiced will not be the prime limitation. It's not as if we'd be talking several thousand quests here, but rather around 100 quests, roughly 50 for both sides. That's not too many dialogue lines, and the animations in this game are pretty static anyway.

 

What matters much more is, will it pay off. Especially with their ideal to still get ranked warzones up and running, a lot of time will need to be invested in balancing. For existing classes for starters, and then for the new class along. That's a lot of time and work, much more than throwing in a bunch of animations and getting the voice actors to speak those lines for a couple of sessions.

 

If then not many players are willing to buy such content, it's a waste of time.

 

Keep in mind that EA is changing its direction greatly. Everything digital is their desire. So them releasing a mini-expansion such as Makeb, fully digital, with already people moaning and complaining on as to why to pay for a digital expansion, isn't going to get things going off with a flying start.

 

Ultimately though, the hard numbers are going to determine how succesful it is, and on what frequency we'll be seeing more of those digital expansions hitting in.

 

If players though are reluctant to adopt, then yes, expect to see little in terms of additional story content, classes and other forms of fluff in the future. And expect SWTOR to become much more of a lobby based game where primary development goes to flashpoints, ops, warzones and every now and then a bunch of space missions.

[DataBeaver]

You've got that horizontal/vertical thing the other way around.

I do? The horizontal/vertical comment was related to this (sorry for not properly quoting it):

Pazaak is content. Pet battles is content. Holo-chess, swoop-races, pvp-space battles, and more warzones is content, and none of these things with interfere with our chances of getting new classes.

Creating minigames such as these is horizontal expansion - they exist alongside other content, often being available from very early on, and do not depend on each other. You don't have to complete five pet battles to take parts in a swoop race, or win a holo-chess tournament to get to play pazaak. There's no sense of progression from one minigame to another. Sometimes each minigame might have its own progression, but it's very shallow. The existing minigame, space missions, has basically five different levels (from no upgrades to grades 1, 3, 5 and 7) and even then you don't progress through them by doing space missions but rather by playing the actual game.

 

Storylines can be both horizontal and vertical content. They're horizontal if they involve the creation of a new class that has its own story for the existing levels in the game. SW:TOR is unique in that it does have different storylines for each class; most MMORPGs have at most one storyline per faction, and sometimes not even that. However, there's also the issue of limited options for creating new and interesting classes, as noted in my earlier post.

 

Storylines are vertical if they continue the stories for existing classes. The upcoming Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion does this. You have to complete chapters 0-3 before you can get into RotHC, which is chapter 4. This allows you to use your existing characters on which you've already spent tens or hundreds of hours of time and that have developed a personality (if you're a role-player).

 

I'm not saying that there should not be new classes, if they can be made different and interesting. Personally, I like the story content either way. My argument was that I'll rather keep and expand the long and involved progression through the main game than have a dozen new mini-games with little or no progression.

 

And as a side note:

Yes, I do. Read the post before yours.

I was actually writing said post while you wrote yours, so I hadn't seen it yet.

Edited January 9, 2013 by DataBeaver

[Machine-Elf]

Horizontal (deriving from the word horizon—from left to right) suggests progression on a linear, structured path. For instance, us players right now have been given content from 1-50. Giving us more of the same by, for instance, adding 5 more levels , only EXTENDS said content, thus branding it as an horizontal approach to game development.

 

Verticality (which has an upwards connotation) denotes a building on top of what already exists, like raising a skyscraper. Adding mini-games and new systems would not extend the game, but build upon it.

 

Get it?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Fornix]

Horizontal (deriving from the word horizon—from left to right) suggests progression on a linear, structured path. For instance, us players right now have been given content from 1-50. Giving us more of the same by, for instance, adding 5 more levels , only EXTENDS said content, thus branding it as an horizontal approach to game development.

 

Verticality (which has an upwards connotation) denotes a building on top of what already exists, like raising a skyscraper. Adding mini-games and new systems would not extend the game, but build upon it.

 

Get it?

 

Which is completely in contrast to as to how the terms are generally used in most MMO's, where vertical progression indicates the expanding difference between players (whether that be gear wise, level-wise through expansions, etc) and horizontal progression indicates addition of content whilst maintaining the same level on players (e.g. addition of gear with minimal vertical stat increase, addition of new content for the same level, etc).

[Machine-Elf]

Which is completely in contrast to as to how the terms are generally used in most MMO's, where vertical progression indicates the expanding difference between players (whether that be gear wise, level-wise through expansions, etc) and horizontal progression indicates addition of content whilst maintaining the same level on players (e.g. addition of gear with minimal vertical stat increase, addition of new content for the same level, etc).

Well, if that's true then it's just one of the many MMO tropes which make little to no sense.

[DataBeaver]

Horizontal (deriving from the word horizon—from left to right) suggests progression on a linear, structured path. For instance, us players right now have been given content from 1-50. Giving us more of the same by, for instance, adding 5 more levels , only EXTENDS said content, thus branding it as an horizontal approach to game development.

 

Verticality (which has an upwards connotation) denotes a building on top of what already exists, like raising a skyscraper. Adding mini-games and new systems would not extend the game, but build upon it.

 

Get it?

It seems we use different definitions for those words, which is why I tried to explain what I meant. I can't find any official definitions right now, so let's forget those for a moment.

 

I disagree that minigames would build upon the main game. At best there's a tenuous connection. With pet battles I guess you mean battles fought with the vanity pets, much like pokemon? (As opposed to companions.) Those are just eyecandy in the main game. In swoop racing we could, umm, race with the speeders we have? Except they're not really swoop bikes, and again the connection is purely aesthetical. Do we even have anything pazaak-related in the game that players can interact with in any way?

 

To truly build upon the existing game, you'd have to make the player character's stats, equipment and/or skills relevant somehow. It could be something where you have to destroy targets within a limited time, or defend an outpost against ever more difficult waves of enemies. It could incorporate platformer elements like some of the datacrons on city planets. But if your character could be replaced with a dummy, I won't call it building upon the existing game.