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PAZAAK was a promised


LUCASCASADEIS

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I really don't get why people still pooint at month-old threads and say "back then you said this and that will happen, so it must happen exactly that way". Can't they understand that plans change when the whole situation changes?

 

No, they can't. Pure and simple, people manipulate the words and facts in their own heads. Either to see something they want to see, or try and twist it and force the other side to deliver. At the same time, they fail to understand that most of the time (even in groups), they have no leverage over a company like this. Companies like this are usually very carefully to word things exactly as quoted in the OP so that the true interpretation is "maybe". Sometimes people let things slip, but so far I have seen nothing presented that could be construed as "promised". Even if they did promise a feature and didn't implement it, what are you going to do? Think of the TOS, EULA, and their team of lawyers before you answer that one.

 

Plans changing on the dev side was exactly my next point. Back before WoW had it's first expansion, they would post about things "on the horizon". I can think of a verbatim quote: "The Emerald Dream is shaping up nicely". Again, we're talking 8 years ago and there is still no major Emerald Dream content patch because they went on to other things. MMO development is very dynamic and people just don't understand that. What's priority today may not be priority tomorrow. We're talking about an organization with finite resources. If they were physically able to do exactly everything that people ask for, they probably would. They can't. That's why we have major bugs from several game updates ago which are still unfixed. That's why we have requested features that aren't in the game yet.

 

The simple truth is, all we have from them is "maybe", and there are about 1,000 other "maybe" answers that need to be looked at and prioritized. Again, that could be next week. It could be "never". There is no way to know. And Bioware is not under the requirement nor the inclination to reveal this right now. Anything else is wishful thinking at best. That's all there is to it.

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Thats the problem with all the non beta testers posting now

 

Pazzaak was promised as a high priority item shortly after release in Closed beta

 

The quote the OP using is the far to common "take back" that happens around here from EA

 

Sorry no quote, those forums were locked up and removed

 

But anyone that was in closed beta and followed those threads (there were many of them as they have continued to be the most requested feature for this game since) knows it was "PROMISED" to the closed beta testers.

 

*incoming "But they changed their minds after they took everyone money excuses"

 

/shrug

 

The fanbois will defend them till the end of time

The middle of road people (me) will say yes its a broken promise but what else is new

The haters will hate

 

But a disclaimer after the fact doesnt change the facts about an original statement and promise made to the closed beta testers. Remember, we were under a NDA so we couldnt repost the promise for all. Doesnt change what was said

 

As a closed beta tester myself who frequented the forums, I do not ever remember seeing a promise of pazaak being added as a high priority or otherwise. That doesn't mean they didn't promise it, only that I never saw or simply don't remember that promise. That being said, if no one can link the thread or threads in which they promised pazaak, then claims of pazaak being promised have as much validity as if I claimed that EA promised everyone a YT-1300.

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I really don't get why people still pooint at month-old threads and say "back then you said this and that will happen, so it must happen exactly that way". Can't they understand that plans change when the whole situation changes?

 

What a ridiculous thing to say. I'm truly shocked at the length some of you take to defend actions such as this.

 

Where else can this work?

 

Can you in college NOT hand an assignment and say "I was working on something else Plans change!"

 

Can you tell your boss who's expecting your reports to NOT give him anything and say "I was working on something else! Plans change!"

 

The absurdity I read on these forums are unbelievable! Plans change for everybody, the good can still deliver. The rest well...looks as if they've ended up here.

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Good god. Nothing in that statement says they are adding Pazaak. OP seriously go play another game...please. Every one of your threads is f'ing crying about something.

 

That statement says we would like to at some point....in English that translates to MAYBE.

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When the teacher says "hand in the assignment then and then", of course the pupil issupposed to deliver.

 

But we customers aren't in the teachers-role here for the developers, but their bosses are.

 

And if they say they have to work on other content now, it doesn't matter what was said almost one year ago.

 

Their priorities are on other parts of the game atm. I'm not saying that they shouldn't listen to what the customers want, but to stubbornly insist they keep some "promises" made an eternity ago is just...

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Good god. Nothing in that statement says they are adding Pazaak. OP seriously go play another game...please. Every one of your threads is f'ing crying about something.

 

That statement says we would like to at some point....in English that translates to MAYBE.

 

lol to be fair the OPs native language is not English...

 

So maybe she / he thought they said they would promise it?

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lol to be fair the OPs native language is not English...

 

So maybe she / he thought they said they would promise it?

 

Also to be fair, the OP admitted "promise" was maybe the wrong word to use.......

 

...on page one of this thread.

 

Can't figure out why people are still piling up on this, other then people don't actually read the thread.

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Maybe it's just me, but I do not see a promise of pazaak, or any other minigames, being implemented. I simply see a statement that the devs love the minigames, and that IF implemented, they would be implemented at a time when the devs wanted to make a big splash.

 

This. They didnt say they will add it either, they said they'd like to

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What a ridiculous thing to say. I'm truly shocked at the length some of you take to defend actions such as this.

 

Where else can this work?

 

Can you in college NOT hand an assignment and say "I was working on something else Plans change!"

 

Can you tell your boss who's expecting your reports to NOT give him anything and say "I was working on something else! Plans change!"

 

The absurdity I read on these forums are unbelievable! Plans change for everybody, the good can still deliver. The rest well...looks as if they've ended up here.

 

The only thing ridiculous I see is...this post. You're trying to compare accountability and planning of the individual to that of an entire organization. Those aren't even remotely close to the same thing, and you're trying to use that to call other posters in the thread absurd. You sound like you have never worked on any kind of team or...anywhere really. Or even played on a sports team. Let's say you're on a softball team. You can bat and field plays flawlessly, and your team can still lose the game. If the team's goal is to win the game and the team fails to meet that goal, who's fault is it then? Maybe not yours, but you still failed, so why is that?. Not so simple now, is it? Businesses are vastly more complicated.

 

Accountability, responsibility and tasks of the individual don't equate to the entire organization. Your have your specific role and responsibilites, and the company has its goals and objectives. The entire company has to move towards those objectives as a whole for it to work, regardless of individual people's accountability. That's not as easy as it sounds, especially in a large company running an MMO. That's why large enterprises have people dedicated to things like logistics and project management. People get behind or make mistakes, deadlines are missed, personalities and ideas clash, there's turnover, personnel changes happen etc, and yes, priorities change. As an individual, you can perform your job flawlessly, and the company can still fail to meet objectives. You think it's so easy for a company this size to meet it's objectives? I'm not saying Bioware does a good job at this at all. In fact I think they're pretty terrible at it. But...if you think it's that easy, take your shot. Go start your own business. Then come back and say people are being absurd for pointing out something realistic.

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Can you tell your boss who's expecting your reports to NOT give him anything and say "I was working on something else! Plans change!".

 

Yes.

 

Maybe it's different for me. I don't have a job where I hand it reports. I'm a developer. And if my boss comes to me and says: "I thought you were going to be finished with that this week," I can say: "Other bugs came up. It couldn't happen," or "The problem is more difficult than we expected, it's gonna take another week."

 

And then the corollary is this: When I talk to customers, I never say "That feature will be working next week". I say "We're working on it now. We hope to have it available soon." Or: "That's a feature we want to add, we'll let you know when it is going to be released."

 

Because, as a developer, I have a pretty good idea about how long features take and how timelines can get derailed. So, I only give timelines and promises when I know they are going to be fulfilled. Of course, that hasn't stopped a dozen or so customers from flipping out when they learn that "We're hoping to have that soon" doesn't mean "You'll have that by Tuesday, I guarantee it".

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okay sorry maybe it's not a promise but they said they will add it

 

The way he phrased it, it was more of a hypothetical answer, he made no promoise... This is why Dev's don't like to say anything because people see what they want to see in statements.....

 

A promise would of been, "" We Guarantee Pazaak will be in the game "" now if he said that then you would have something...

 

But for fun, lets say his statement was a promise, he never stated a time frame, Bioware could add it in the game 2 years from now and he would still be keeping his promise.

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All the Bioware Developers who had any roles that required them to talk publicly have followed some communication course.

Just read through all the interviews they gave when asked about unanounced features: either they said they were not allowed to answer (very regularly) or they circumvented the question, using phrases like "we very much want to yada yada yada" and the other favourite "we are currently discussing/investigating etcetera etcetera etcetera". Many fans interpret those answers as a "yes", and many supposedly experienced interviewers fall for the Jedi Mindtrick as well.

But in reality, all that happens, is an interviewer asking whether snow is in game, and the interviewed developer answering how pretty snow is and that snow is white, without ever saying whether there's any snow in game. It may be in game, but he never said it was, so if they can't deliver, then he didn't make any false promise either.

 

During Beta, there have been a few hints given by the Developers. Especially James Ohlen had a knack for slipping some details between the lines, and even then, he never promised them. He would say they were working on something, but would refuse to officially anounce it, since things weren't final yet. Or at times, the interviewer had no idea that James had let something slip and simply didn't follow up on it.

 

If it's not in an anouncement, then it wasn't promised.

When they say they're very interrested in something, it's not promissed.

Even when told they're working on something, still doesn't make it a promise.

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The only thing ridiculous I see is...this post. You're trying to compare accountability and planning of the individual to that of an entire organization. Those aren't even remotely close to the same thing, and you're trying to use that to call other posters in the thread absurd. You sound like you have never worked on any kind of team or...anywhere really. Or even played on a sports team. Let's say you're on a softball team. You can bat and field plays flawlessly, and your team can still lose the game. If the team's goal is to win the game and the team fails to meet that goal, who's fault is it then? Maybe not yours, but you still failed, so why is that?. Not so simple now, is it? Businesses are vastly more complicated.

 

Accountability, responsibility and tasks of the individual don't equate to the entire organization. Your have your specific role and responsibilites, and the company has its goals and objectives. The entire company has to move towards those objectives as a whole for it to work, regardless of individual people's accountability. That's not as easy as it sounds, especially in a large company running an MMO. That's why large enterprises have people dedicated to things like logistics and project management. People get behind or make mistakes, deadlines are missed, personalities and ideas clash, there's turnover, personnel changes happen etc, and yes, priorities change. As an individual, you can perform your job flawlessly, and the company can still fail to meet objectives. You think it's so easy for a company this size to meet it's objectives? I'm not saying Bioware does a good job at this at all. In fact I think they're pretty terrible at it. But...if you think it's that easy, take your shot. Go start your own business. Then come back and say people are being absurd for pointing out something realistic.

 

Don't assume you know me personally from my posts. Stop giving yourself more intellectual credit than you deserve guy. I know you guys are all billionaire developer detectives on the Internet but really you wrote this unnecessary two paragraph post when it really just skews and apologizes. Also I'd never ever think of taking advice on how businesses or MMOs work from a random nameless Internet guy...sorry.

 

I know you want to get into this never ending back and forth which I don't care to do whatsoever. I want to say this then split:

 

Coaches who can't deliver on their promises of winning championships get fired.

Players who can't deliver on their promise of playing at what they're capable of get traded or released.

Businesses who lose revenue because some bonehead can't add functionality that he's promised get fired.

And game companies who hire developers who can't deliver on half of the promises they make fire em.

 

Now all this really has NOTHING to do with this thread whatsoever. You're just chasing me trying to come up with your best points to argue simply for the sake of it. But I'm sure you'll have something so clever and cutting to say back that you won't be able to hesitate.

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Don't assume you know me personally from my posts. Stop giving yourself more intellectual credit than you deserve guy. I know you guys are all billionaire developer detectives on the Internet but really you wrote this unnecessary two paragraph post when it really just skews and apologizes. Also I'd never ever think of taking advice on how businesses or MMOs work from a random nameless Internet guy...sorry.

 

You based this on...what? You're the one that came into the thread calling people 'ridiculous' and 'absurd'. I'm not giving you advice on anything. Merely pointing out that you are calling the so-called defenders 'ridiculous' when you really seem to have no clue what's happening behind the scenes. You further started with these terms with nothing to back it up except for some analogies which don't even relate to what's happening. I don't know you, don't claim to, and don't care to. If you're going to chime in on a discussion and use inflammatory terms, at least make a case and don't say it just for the sake of saying it. There's a difference.

 

Now all this really has NOTHING to do with this thread whatsoever. You're just chasing me trying to come up with your best points to argue simply for the sake of it. But I'm sure you'll have something so clever and cutting to say back that you won't be able to hesitate.

 

Replying to a post = chasing now? There's no argument I've seen you make here. Again, you came in and just mouthed off with a bunch of terms with nothing to back any of it up. And I don't agree. If I want to have my say on it, I'll have my say. If you want to reply, you're also entitled. That's the point of a discussion forum.

 

TL;DR: Cool story, bro. Done with this thread.

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"most likely"

 

The "most likely" that you seized on to quote had nothing to do with pazaak "most likely" being added to the game. It was used to indicate that IF pazaak were added to the game, it would "most likely" be done when the devs wanted to make a large splash.

 

Toxin_Polaris: Do you plan to have mini-games like swoop races or pazaak? And if so what is the priority for this? Can we expect them this year?

 

Damion Schubert: We love mini-games, especially the ones that speak to the heritage of KOTOR. When would something like pazaak make its way to you? Hard to say - it's not on our immediate horizon, and we'd most likely do it at a point where we want to make a large splash.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-24th-2012

 

Bioware said they will add pazaak in "a large splash" i think the expansion would be the best option for pazaak.

 

please bioware, you made the promise of Pazaak. give it to us we want it

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