Guide to PVP Full Gunny post 1.6

[wishihadaname]

Commandoes, gunnery commandoes in particular, have a very bad reputation as being the single worst pvp class. Are commandoes weak? Well in my experiance not really. There are upsides and downsides to the class, the biggest being reputation.

 

Upsides

 

 

-heavy armor: go play a sage before you complain about heavy armor being useless.

-armor penetration: Not that big a deal since most dps have this but its still nice.

-self heal burst: warzone medpack + tech override + med probe = 5-10k worth of self heals in 2 seconds.

-hard hitting sustained damage: 3k FA ticks and 3K gravs. nuf said.

-easy rotation: Our main damage rotation is really hard to screw up, try playing an operative before saying this

doesn't matter.

-Survivability burst on demand: 30% armor + 15% warzone stimpack + 20% reactive shield = 65% damage resistance for 12 seconds.... not bad.

-Shoot and scoot: FYI, running sideways allows you to both shoot at your oponent and move at full forward speed, so stock strike root, then scoot sideways while throwing out a demo + hib in the first 2 seconds and following it up with a sticky nade if needed. Usable evyer 9 seconds and known to drive scoundrels up the wall.

-Cleanse: If you don't have it bound, you're bad. Period. It removes anni mara bleeds, armor debuffs, agent poisons, explosive charges, and most slows except for the smash monkeys and the shadows.

-Stealth scan: keybind it, and learn to use it to cut off choke points.

-Very strong aoe: Mortar volley + sticky nade + hail of bolts = 10K+ of aoe damage with no max targets.

 

 

Downsides

 

 

-Bad reputation: Everyone thinks we are a free kill so we get leaped by every frustrated derpsmasher who just lost to a shadow and needs to prove that his epeen is still the biggest on the internet.

-Lack of leap/interrupt protection: You can offspec into medic to get interrupt immunity while shielded but this makes you give up demo round and is generally not recommended.

-Lack of sustained defense: once you use your health and shield burst you become very vulnerable for at least 2 minutes while everything recharges.

-Easy to shut down: Anyone with a half a brain and an interrupt button can shut us down if we let them fight on their terms (more on that below).

-Highly gear dependent: Most of our mitigation and damage boosting is stat based. You need full auged war hero before you become any sort of threat.

-Very hard to kite: but not impossible (again, see below).

 

 

 

Tactics:

There are a few things you can do to mitigate your weaknesses and work off your strenghts.

 

 

1) Positioning- Find the best spots to set up on and get there before you start attacking. A few examples are the ramps around mid on huttball, the elevated side platforms on Alderaan, behind the bunker or gun on Novare, near the pit or on a crate in voidstar. The general rule is you want somewhere elevated with a nearby object that you can use for LOS.

 

2) Try using a rifle: I've thoroughly tested it and our sustained dps over a 1 minute parse is EXACTLY THE SAME using a rifle or cannon. Here is why: The small difference in weapon damage (~200 points on the best guns) is mitigated by RNG crits on big attacks and the fact that most of our attacks are tech damage and use tech rating rather than weapon damage. Our burst over 10 moves goes down about 15% due to loss of damage on FA. Its a tradeoff that I make gladly because it counters our reputation. There is no way to emperically test it, but I feel as though I get targeted far less often while using a rifle than while using a cannon, all other things kept the same, because a cannon immediately gives away that i'm a commando while a rifle is usually associated with vanguards. Use this tip or don't, but I find it helps.

 

3) Shoot and scoot: These forums have cried a giant river of salty tears over the "useless" stock strike root. I'm here to tell you that its a load of BS. For those that cry that rooting a target right next to you is useless, I have to ask if they have movement keys bound at all. Becuase 4 seconds is more than enough time to get to 10+ meters away and fire 1-2 gravs. /rant off. The actual tactic is used primarily to counter scoundrels, shadows, and derpsmashers.

 

Here is how: you get leaped or opened on from stealth. Concussive charge-->full auto (for the slow) --> grav x2 . At this point they have either closed or used a stealth ability. Drop stealth scan on yourself and begin healing yourself. In the case of scoundrels they can't do sqaut until stealth scan is over since they must get the opener on you, in case of shadows or leapers they will probably re-engage and hopefully blow their interrupt on your heals. At this point use stock strike and SIDE STRAFE away from them. I say use side strafe because you can still fire at them while also moving at full speed. If you are slowed, in case of scoundrels use clense, in case of smashers use your breaker (they have no full cc move to worry about), in case of shadows skip this step until the slow wears off and then stock strike + move. Keep in mind that the root breaks after 2 seconds if damaged so I suggest HiB/Demo + Sticky while moving. Once your 10+ meters away, stop and immediately hit gravs x2. At this point you are too far away to interrupt and grav round has a delay before it hits which prevents it from breaking the root until after you have already cast your second grav. At this point you must have a COF proc. Use it. Once they close turn on your shield, pop a warzone stim pack and a med pack if needed and prepare for a dps race. If you did this right and you gear is decent the target should be at <50% health and you should be at ~90%. Thats a fight that can be won. If neither of you is dead by the time your shield wears off, repeat the shoot and scoot tactic. This can also be used to pillar hump into oblivion (root, move around pillar, self health, repeat). You won't kill anyone doing that but its a good way to annoy a particularly parsistant target or to keep them from going onto the next room in voidstar.

 

Edited January 4, 2013 by wishihadaname
Typos

[Kitru]

2) Try using a rifle: I've thoroughly tested it and our sustained dps over a 1 minute parse is EXACTLY THE SAME using a rifle or cannon.

 

I highly doubt that. Roughly 10% of your damage on Hammer Shots, Full Auto, and HiB are dependent upon you using an Assault Cannon rather than a Blaster Rifle. Sure, the RNG can sometimes pick up the slack thanks to the presence of Tech attacks, but I highly doubt it's actually "exactly the same". It's lower and well known to be.

 

Rather than saying it's "exactly the same", it would be better to say that it's not appreciably lower, especially when weighed against the tactical benefits of not being an obvious easy kill based upon your loadout. You'll lose maybe 5% of your total DPS capability (Gunnery is roughly 50/50% split between tech and ranged attacks weighed for damage), but you could potentially stay up longer because your opponents don't notice you as quickly. Of course, if they've got player icons up or have targeted you and seen that you've got Armor Piercing Cell active, using a Blaster Rifle is going to be purely a detractor since they'll realize that you're a commando regardless of what weapon you're using.

[Aaoogaa]

This is what really happens. You get leaped to and concusive charge the target is immune due to unrimitting. You eat a smash to the face and a force scream then get pushed and leaped again for a masters strike...if you use your breaker on the leap root to get out of master strike then you get forcechoked and smashed again if you save it for the force choke you eat the full masters strike and then break the choke and smashed again...a quick dipatch and you are dead. By the time you spawn again the warrior/knight has all of his cooldowns back up and you are once again a sitting duck with no escapes and no hopes of survival. In the 8 seconds it takes to kill you he has unrimitting up and there is nothing you can do to stop it from happening.

 

Operatives - you will usually escape if you are up on the railing...an assasin is just going to pop his tech immunity and destroy you as nothing will stick to him.

 

Edit - sorry don't know all the names of the warrior abilities so filled in with Jedi abilities.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Aaoogaa

[johnyangelo]

What is your rated warzone rating as gunnery commando?

 

You are on the same server as him?

[Aaoogaa]

You are on the same server as him?

 

Sorry changed my post as I didn't want to come across wrong.

[ArchangelLBC]

It seems to me there are two possibilities:

 

Option 1) You aren't nearly as good as you think you are, but have managed to carve out a decent niche performing well against bad players. Your shoot and scoot "this is how it works" blurb would seem to suggest this as I don't note any of the things good players will do to counter that tactic. Shadows and Sents can both slow you so you don't get out of range in time, or root in the case of Carnage Maras. That's right they can root you right the hell back and they can do it from 10m away. Hybrid Tankasins will just Force Speed to break the root. Scoundrels can probably cleanse the damn thing, but they could always heal themselves while you run. This is to say nothing of just stunning you when you try to run. Other classes have the tools to deal with us, never you fear.

 

I also noted that you'd like to stock strike > HiB > Demo. The Demo will occur after the 2 second lockout (remember stock strike uses a GCD). Also in 4 seconds you won't get far enough away to get off two Grav Rounds. At best you'll get off one. If you don't get much farther than 10m an Assassin will be back in range to interrupt you immediately since they can interrupt from 10m. Same with scoundrels. Derp smashers will leap to you with Zealous (10m range) or Force Leap if you're farther. Force Leap will interrupt the grav round you're casting if you get further than 10m. Zealous will get them there in time to interrupt you otherwise.

 

Don't get me wrong, root and run sideways is about the only thing it's good for, but lets not pretend it's better than it is.

 

The rifle thing is also a silly idea. You mentioned Hail of Bolts as part of our AoE power, but you can't use that ability while using a rifle. It requires an assault cannon. But that's ok because our AoE power really isn't as good as you make it out to be since for the most part no one is going to stand still for Mortar Volley or Hail of Bolts. These abilities are mostly useful for interrupting cappers. Also Hail of Bolts and Mortar Volley all have a target limit of 5. I think sticky might be three. Not that it matters for reasons listed above and because no one is ever lucky enough to get more than that in range anyway, but still, your lack of knowledge of your own class leads me to believe you aren't as good as you think you are.

 

Also, as helpful a tip as positioning is, it's more a hopeful measure than anything. When they see you things are going to start getting hairy.

 

You know what tip I never see thrown around? Tech Override > Concussion Round. Then just heal yourself while they sit there watching all their hard work go to waste. Then run a decent distance away (no more than 10m if it's a Leaper. No need to make their job easier for them) and start up your rotation again. Useful always? No. If you're in the middle of the zerg they'll get hit and your mez broken, but still I wonder that I never see anyone use this.

 

Option 2) You are exactly as good as you think you are and perform at the top of the charts no matter who the opponent and in fact are walking proof that Commando can be viable in ranked warzones.

 

In this case I'd say your PVP talent is very much wasted on this class, and now that you have Godlike situational awareness (cause at the end of the day that's all Commando has) you should go play a class that doesn't suck out loud in PVP. Your operative is infinitely more useful. I'd start there.

[Gyronamics]

Using a rifle is amusing, I have an augmented crowwbow I sometimes mod up for fun, you have a vanguard appearance and animations and opponents cannot immediately see you're a commando which has a totally different killing range compared to a vanguard.

 

But you lose a great deal.

 

1) No Charged Bolts - Grav gets interrupted you can look like a fool or you can make them look like a fool by seamlessly swapping to Charged Bolts which they can use abilities to try and interrupt again or they can take the hits. Also Grav does jack on a glowing shadow or assassin, immunity to tech attacks, which also means stockstrike, grenades, stuns and most other attacks you're left with if you have only a rifle.

 

2) Hail of Bolts - mass interrupt unless you bring stacks of cyber nades and like paying for every mass interrupt never mind the CD on them.

 

Also:

 

-Cleanse: If you don't have it bound, you're bad. Period. It removes anni mara bleeds, armor debuffs

 

What removable armour debuffs are these?

 

More importantly it removes IA/Smuggler DoT effects which will cripple their use of wounding shots/cull.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Gyronamics

[wishihadaname]

To make a few clarifications:

 

1) I never claimed that this works in rateds. I don't play rated. Ever. I don't do so because i'm not in a major PVP guild and the rated que on my server is dominated by a few unbeatable premades who mainly play in house. I also don't play rated because commandoes are, even when played well, near the bottom of the totem pole for active mitigation and defense, which are arguably the most important things for a dps class in rated games. That said, there is nothing forcing you to play rated warzones.

 

2) Shoot and scoot DOES work against every class except very well played assassins. You just have to change it up depending on the situation.

Example: Worst case derpsmashing Jug scenario. You get jumped by a jug at max health with all cooldowns and 4 stacks of shockwave. IF you are quick and punt him before he smashes (so within 1.5 seconds worth of GCD between the leap and the next move), this is a winnable fight. After the punt you follow the standard rotation. FA + 2 gravs while he closes. If he's good he'll use his 10m gap closer and smash. Turn on your shield + stim before this, cancel the gravs if you have to. The first smash is only going to hit for 45% of its max of 8k so worst case scenario is a <4k hit. Big whoop. His next move will probably be force crush. Use your breaker to break the slow, stock strike him in the face, and scoot out of range to get your 2 gravs off leaving him with a sticky nade to ponder while you do so. If he force chokes you as you try to run, you eat it but your shield is still on so you can afford to screw up the first scoot attempt. The cooldown on force crush is relatively long. Once he closes again pop your medpack and continue trying to dps him for the next 5s until the next time you can shoot and scoot. If he tries to ravage, use the cryo nade. If he breaks it, use tech override + concussive round and heal yourself to full or just run away. Assuming the worst case scenario: you tried to scoot but got choked or pushed. If pushed then don't worry, he just gave you a free pass to run away since he is still rooted and can't leap. If chocked, eat it (no other option), and then start casting a heal. He will either blow his interrupt, or push. If he interrupts, spam gravs. If he pushes depending on whether he is still rooted or not you can either cast a few instants and prepare to get leaped (though he won't have his shockwave stacks so no smash just yet), or just run away and live to fight another day. The basic point is that there are always options. And when all else fails you can annoy the living hell out of any derpsmasher by pillar humping. Nothing enrages them like chasing a "free" kill for a minute and a half.

 

3) There are counters to every counter, but it doesn't mean were helpless. The shoot and scoot tactic is just one that we can use. Tech override + concussive round is another though it requires us to make sure we first make our opponent waste their breaker. I've 1v1ed fully geared scoundrels and smashers to a standstill before. I've also been horrifically butchered by those same people under different circumstances. I'm not saying were top of the pile, I know were not. But enough with the doom and gloom already, it really not that bad.

 

4) If you know about other classes tricks, you can work around them. Example: When a shadow starts glowing, turn on defenses and start healing or using FA because nothing else will work and its a waste of time and GCD's to try. That glowie bubble is not that long and I've never met a shadow that could do significant damage to me in those 6 seconds while I was in max defense mode (stim + shield + self heals).

 

Couple of other pointers:

-Carnage marauders are a joke. Stop ravage and you more or less win especially if you got the first shot. Ravage is stopped with concussive charge or cryo nade. Don't let them walk up to you or else the fight gets much harder. (field awareness again).

 

-Infiltration shadows are squishy as hell. They have 6 seconds of decent defense coming out of stealth but can be CC'ed through 4 of those with a cryo nade, stock strike root, or knockback.

 

-on the same note: most shadows won't have their force speed up by the time you stock strike root them because they almost always blow it after getting punted. If they don't then they eat an FA + slow + gravs. The really good ones will either vanish or use their resistance. But those can also be countered if youre quick and have your cooldowns up.

 

- The armor debuffs that marauders and snipers use (not sure of the name), can be removed with cleanses. And trying to fight a lethality OP or sniper head on won't work because it takes 2 cleanses to fully remove their DOTs, and they will be able to cull before you can cleanse twice. You have to LOS them long enough to use 2 cleanses.

Edited January 7, 2013 by wishihadaname
Early posting

[oaceen]

- The armor debuffs that marauders and snipers use (not sure of the name), can be removed with cleanses.

 

i'm guessing you mean juggs and this is not true

[Gyronamics]

Example: Worst case derpsmashing Jug scenario. You get jumped by a jug at max health with all cooldowns and 4 stacks of shockwave. And is Unstoppable (20% less dmg taken and immune to all cc/physics for 4 seconds after each force charge). IF you are quick you'll know you're totally fecked as he smashes you, pushes you, leaps to you, chokes you, smashes you again with some fillers to idle away time between smashing you.

 

No, there's nothing you can do against that scenario except to take a massive load of damage and do nothing much back even if you burn your shields and medpaks.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Gyronamics

[Kitru]

1) I never claimed that this works in rateds. I don't play rated. Ever.

 

Right away, that's going to eat into your credibility. If you never do RWZs, you're never really going up against groups that are both organized and effective. Saying that you know how people can be effective at playing Commando but never do RWZs is like claiming that Scoundrel DPS is *amazing* even if you're going to be largely worthless in anything beyond tier 1 ops content. Pretty much any class can have passable performance in standard WZs, mainly because most people have no clue what they're doing, are painfully disorganized such that everyone is off doing their own thing, or they simply don't care enough to actually play at a high level.

[wishihadaname]

Its nice to see the thread has actually gone somewhere and i'm getting some constructive feedback on my suggestions.

 

Couple more points

 

-I wasn't talking about Jug armor debuffs. Those are not removable. However, marauders have deadly throw and crippling slash which are their slows and healing debuffs. These can be cleansed and should always be. Snipers have shatter shot which breaks armor and debuffs healing. This can also be cleansed and must be.

 

-If a Jug has unstoppable he does not have force crush. This means that, although you will eat the first smash, he won't be able to get another one off on you since his only means of building shockwave is with force choke, and you can break + interrupt to deny him that. Hybrid smash jugs are NOT scary. They are also trivial to kite.

 

-There are only 2 slows in the game that we can't counter. Sages/shadows force slow, and smashers force crush. Force crush I always blow my breaker on, as for the shadows slow, that I don't have tactic against and usually just end up ignoring. Didn't say I knew everything. For those that didn't know, snipers/operatives roots can be cleansed, and ravage is countered with cryo nade or concussive charge.

 

-Also: don't be so quick to dismiss my credibility because I don't play ranked. For those of you who are on Jedi Covenant, you probably know how rampant our premade problem is. There are 2 guilds in particular that roll multiple ranked level teams into the pug que every night. Specifically Lethal/Midichlorian Dose 50 and Uncensored. Between those 2 guilds, i've had more than my share of fighting max geared, voice coordinated, 8 man premades, who mark targets, focus fire, and honestly have no place in the pug que. I'll refrain from going on about how LD50 ruins all pug pvp when they get on, but suffice to say that I have played against the best and attempting to survive those games is how I come up with most of my tactics. (As a side note: none of those teams use commandoes or mercs, ever. So I suppose that's a point towards the naysayers.)

[ArchangelLBC]

I never claimed that this works in rateds. I don't play rated. Ever. I don't do so because i'm not in a major PVP guild and the rated que on my server is dominated by a few unbeatable premades who mainly play in house. I also don't play rated because commandoes are, even when played well, near the bottom of the totem pole for active mitigation and defense, which are arguably the most important things for a dps class in rated games. That said, there is nothing forcing you to play rated warzones.

 

As Kitru says, this hurts your credibility. Most of us know how to get decent performances in normal warzones. I didn't stop PVPing on my Commando because I never did well. I stopped because my shadow did it all so much better.

 

Also it's not active mitigation and defense that are our problem. Realistically VG DPS doesn't have much more

active defense than we do (one 2s AoE stun is nice, but it's not what separates us). It's high burst, preferably with little setup required and hard to counter that is the hallmark of PVP DPS, which is why Pyro PTs, Smash Juggs, and Combat Sents (and Smash Sents I suppose) rule the day. If you're a solo queuer (which your post about a premade problem seems to indicate) I can see why you'd think mitigation is what matters. It ain't.

 

 

Shoot and scoot DOES work against every class except very well played assassins. You just have to change it up depending on the situation.

Example: Worst case derpsmashing Jug scenario. You get jumped by a jug at max health with all cooldowns and 4 stacks of shockwave. IF you are quick and punt him before he smashes (so within 1.5 seconds worth of GCD between the leap and the next move), this is a winnable fight. After the punt you follow the standard rotation. FA + 2 gravs while he closes. If he's good he'll use his 10m gap closer and smash. Turn on your shield + stim before this, cancel the gravs if you have to. The first smash is only going to hit for 45% of its max of 8k so worst case scenario is a <4k hit. Big whoop. His next move will probably be force crush. Use your breaker to break the slow, stock strike him in the face, and scoot out of range to get your 2 gravs off leaving him with a sticky nade to ponder while you do so. If he force chokes you as you try to run, you eat it but your shield is still on so you can afford to screw up the first scoot attempt. The cooldown on force crush is relatively long. Once he closes again pop your medpack and continue trying to dps him for the next 5s until the next time you can shoot and scoot. If he tries to ravage, use the cryo nade. If he breaks it, use tech override + concussive round and heal yourself to full or just run away. Assuming the worst case scenario: you tried to scoot but got choked or pushed. If pushed then don't worry, he just gave you a free pass to run away since he is still rooted and can't leap. If chocked, eat it (no other option), and then start casting a heal. He will either blow his interrupt, or push. If he interrupts, spam gravs. If he pushes depending on whether he is still rooted or not you can either cast a few instants and prepare to get leaped (though he won't have his shockwave stacks so no smash just yet), or just run away and live to fight another day. The basic point is that there are always options. And when all else fails you can annoy the living hell out of any derpsmasher by pillar humping. Nothing enrages them like chasing a "free" kill for a minute and a half.

 

Remember that in a worst case scenario both your shield and adrenal are on cooldown =P

 

Listen you're conceding him 4 stacks of singularity whatever you do, I'd save the breaker for the choke since you can't do anything during that. Even slowed you can get out of melee range in the short time you have, and do something, and if he gets his stacks early he's going to be tempted to blow the smash while the adrenal is still running. Also if they're letting you get two gravs off then they're a bad player. Period. If you toss a sticky, the first grav is going to break the root even if you cast it immediately. Once they aren't rooted, they can leap.

 

Also if you threw a sticky he definitely should push you. The sticky will break the root and he can leap immediately (since you kindly just broke his root with sticky. The damage lands after the lockout.) Also choke lasts three seconds so if you're eating it he doesn't have long to worry about the root anyway, so if he pushes he'll leap to you before you get off the ground.

 

He could also Awe you, and he has a spammable slow. Methinks you play too many FotM juggs.

 

There are counters to every counter, but it doesn't mean were helpless. The shoot and scoot tactic is just one that we can use. Tech override + concussive round is another though it requires us to make sure we first make our opponent waste their breaker. I've 1v1ed fully geared scoundrels and smashers to a standstill before. I've also been horrifically butchered by those same people under different circumstances. I'm not saying were top of the pile, I know were not. But enough with the doom and gloom already, it really not that bad.

 

Counters to every counter but we'll run out of counters before they do, and that's the problem. It really is that bad. Also 1v1ing to a standstill isn't something to really brag about. I'm going to preach doom and gloom till they fix it. Commando is every bit as bad as the pessimist say it is. It's cute that you wanna make the best of a bad situation, but lets not pretend there's some magic bullet to making it not suck. BW needs to fix it.

 

If you know about other classes tricks, you can work around them. Example: When a shadow starts glowing, turn on defenses and start healing or using FA because nothing else will work and its a waste of time and GCD's to try. That glowie bubble is not that long and I've never met a shadow that could do significant damage to me in those 6 seconds while I was in max defense mode (stim + shield + self heals).

 

Healing isn't going to work, they'll just interrupt you. Also at best their cooldowns vs your cooldowns becomes sort of a wash. Then it's back to who can outdamage who, and they're going to win that game.

 

-Carnage marauders are a joke. Stop ravage and you more or less win especially if you got the first shot. Ravage is stopped with concussive charge or cryo nade. Don't let them walk up to you or else the fight gets much harder. (field awareness again).

 

Again this is a symptom of facing bad Carnage Marauders. They actually have a TON of tools, and if they lose to you they're a superbad. True Gore > Ravage > Force Scream is their big hitter, but do NOT underestimate the power of PS > Blade Rush > Blade Rush > Blade Storm > Blade Rush x4 when they have 30 stacks of centering. To do so would be a huge mistake. It's Remember Ravage is something you only have to worry about like every 28 seconds. They aren't being idle the rest of the time.

 

Also if you have a hope in hell of beating them I'd save Cryo/Concussion Round for Undying Rage (if they break the Cryo, then they just let you Concussion Round them. Use your knockback to stop Ravage always. The cooldowns are about the same, so save it for this purpose specifically. You'll be far enough away they won't be able to Blade Storm (Force Scream) for 5k+. They'd have to leap back and by that time their PS will have worn off. Either way a mara should never let you have the first shot. If you're being left to free cast that's a different story, but don't doubt that a good one is going to put you in the dirt 100% of the time unless you catch him at very low health and no cooldowns. A bad one who can't take full advantage of all that utility? Different story of course.

 

-Infiltration shadows are squishy as hell. They have 6 seconds of decent defense coming out of stealth but can be CC'ed through 4 of those with a cryo nade, stock strike root, or knockback.

 

12 seconds. 6 seconds after exiting stealth, and then another 6 whenever they choose since exiting stealth resets the cooldown on blackout. If they combat stealth for the purposes of using Spike/Spinning Kick then that will be 12 more seconds (6 of it at their leisure) of 25% DR and massive Force Regen Rate, so they will do it. Stock strike root isn't going to do much against them given their plethora of 10m skills (if they're running the 0/27/14 hybrid they can hit you at 30m with Death Field/Force in Balance as well), or they can just stop you from running with Low Slash (it's a short cooldown), and God help you if they get you while your back is turned cause then you probably just gave them a free buffed Maul/Shadowstrike. It takes some practice so if there's people trying it out they won't be good at it, but the good Infiltration or Infiltration Hybrids will be very good at not being as squishy as you'd hope. In 24 seconds they can make your life very very miserable.

 

on the same note: most shadows won't have their force speed up by the time you stock strike root them because they almost always blow it after getting punted. If they don't then they eat an FA + slow + gravs. The really good ones will either vanish or use their resistance. But those can also be countered if youre quick and have your cooldowns up.

 

You conceded above that shadows were the ones the tactic didn't work so well on. Full Infiltration Shadows are the most melee dependent in my opinion, but even then they can drop an easy 10-15k as you run, especially if Force Potency is up. The Hybrid tank specs all have force pull and are more comfortable fighting at 10m

 

I'd save my vanish. Hell only an idiot would vanish while they're rooted against a commando.

 

Losing to shadows isn't a sign of class weakness. They're a really freaking good dueling class.

 

The armor debuffs that marauders and snipers use (not sure of the name), can be removed with cleanses. And trying to fight a lethality OP or sniper head on won't work because it takes 2 cleanses to fully remove their DOTs, and they will be able to cull before you can cleanse twice. You have to LOS them long enough to use 2 cleanses.

 

Terminology correction. I wouldn't classify Sent/Mara debuffs as "armor debuffs". That term is reserved for debuffs which actually negate your armor, like Juggs, Snipers, and Commandos can do.

 

If a Jug has unstoppable he does not have force crush. This means that, although you will eat the first smash, he won't be able to get another one off on you since his only means of building shockwave is with force choke, and you can break + interrupt to deny him that. Hybrid smash jugs are NOT scary. They are also trivial to kite.

 

Most unequivocally true thing you've said this whole thread.

 

That being said don't depend on having your CC break up. That long cooldown is nasty. Still you're right. Unstoppable on a smash jugg makes me breath a little easier.

 

Also: don't be so quick to dismiss my credibility because I don't play ranked. For those of you who are on Jedi Covenant, you probably know how rampant our premade problem is. There are 2 guilds in particular that roll multiple ranked level teams into the pug que every night. Specifically Lethal/Midichlorian Dose 50 and Uncensored. Between those 2 guilds, i've had more than my share of fighting max geared, voice coordinated, 8 man premades, who mark targets, focus fire, and honestly have no place in the pug que. I'll refrain from going on about how LD50 ruins all pug pvp when they get on, but suffice to say that I have played against the best and attempting to survive those games is how I come up with most of my tactics. (As a side note: none of those teams use commandoes or mercs, ever. So I suppose that's a point towards the naysayers.)

 

Keep in mind that just facing the top ranked PVP guild on your server doesn't mean everything. Normals is where players like that will start trying out goofy specs just for a change because it doesn't matter. Gear and Voice Chat will carry the day. They'll also just in general focus less, and they aren't always, or even often, gonna have all 8 on their team. An NBA team who goes and plays a pickup game is still gonna beat most anyone they go against, but that doesn't mean they're going to play like they would when it actually matters. Normals are often a chance to cut back.

 

I appreciate your willingness to try to make the best of a bad class, I really do. I admire anyone who decides to tough it out, and people prove again and again they can do well in normals. Ranked is where even the best players admit we just don't have much of a place though.