P2W Crystals and Space Missions were Intentional?

[ShiningKnights]

Hi everyone,

 

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

 

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

 

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.

 

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

 

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

 

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

 

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

Internal miscommunication? Is Bioware Austin suggesting that their departments don't talk to each other? A far more plausible explanation is that Bioware intentionally tried to introduce P2W (subtlely) via lvl 50 crystals available at 15 and P2W space gear, seeing what they can get away with (technically buying quick bars was the first P2W instance). However, they got their hand slapped this time around. Even though Damien Schubert says "We have no intention of going Pay-to-Win" what does your gut and common sense tell you? Can they even be trusted with anything they say? Does anybody else feel this way too?

 

What concerns me even more is this statement "It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other." Are they saying that you can either earn BIS gear by either running ops or just simply buying them off the Cartel Market? Can we get an answer from Bioware on this?

[KalinSword]

You know more, and more I find myself ok with end game gear in the CM. I mean why not? Just make sure the cost is on par with the cost of Raiding, and what dose matter. So there's another way to get gear so what. I really never got why raider get so worked up over people who don't raid having a way to get raid gear. Look at BH gear you can get it with out raid, but people still raid.

 

The only issue I would have is if the gear in the CM was better then what you can get just by playing the game.

[United_Strafes]

Ya a crystal will make a very minimal difference no matter what level you are, as for the ship upgrades cheap as hell on the GTN right now, get a clue.

[Suzina]

I really really hate pay to win space. I hit the "cancel" button on my sub over it.

[Goretzu]

I suspect they were more than intentional, they were a testing of the water.

[Sleprock]

The people calling the shots are out of touch with this. I seriously wonder how their board meetings go.

 

"18 Dollars for a reskinned mount with xmas lights skewed upon it ?" - " Yup."

 

" 10 dollars for new jedi hood down armor? " - "Yup."

 

" Make sure the new crystals can be thrown onto the market this time. We know it'll hurt the crafter's pocket books but who cares if they've been here since launch." - " Yup."

[Macheath]

It's not just pay to win that's the problem.

 

Crafters craft ship parts. If equal or better parts are available in the cash shop, it hurts the crafting economy. As someone else said in this thread, the ship parts are "dirt cheap" on the GTN. It's not good when the best gear in the game -no matter what aspect of the game it's for- can be bought cheaply.

 

This undermines both crafting and space combat, and bleeds over into adventuring since you can buy high-end armor using space commendations. It's a triple whammy. If they wanted to make some ship items available in the cash shop, then what they should have done is offer one tier of items in the cash shop, along with a superior tier of ship items from the completion of in-game content. That way, you are still earning the best rewards through experiencing and completing the actual gameplay.

 

The same problem exists with cartel market color crystals. They also hurt the crafting economy. We're seeing a pattern forming, one many of us are uncomfortable with. Either BioWare doesn't care about their in-game economy, or the team in charge of this stuff is incompetent.

 

-Macheath.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Macheath

[Sleprock]

Either BioWare doesn't care about their in-game economy, or the team in charge of this stuff is incompetent.

 

-Macheath.

 

Ignorance and Incompetence are at the top of the list. To make decisions this bad only means that many of them do not even play the game, or hardly play it all. It's a shame.

[grombrinda]

This is how play to win starts...they throw a couple of items out there to test the waters...before you know it.... high end mods and such WILL start making its way to the market.

[Spiritinblack]

People will take the path of least resistance.

 

This statement has nothing to do with if I agree with what they are doing or not.

 

I just want people to remember it.

[Goretzu]

This is how play to win starts...they throw a couple of items out there to test the waters...before you know it.... high end mods and such WILL start making its way to the market.

 

[NogueiraA]

Grade 7 ship armor you can get with comms.

 

+41power will make 0.5% dif when leveling.

 

Pay to win? Are you serious? You unsub because of that, I think you used "p2w" as an excuse to unsub

[Codle]

The ship upgrades make up such a minimal part of the game, and you can get the parts in other ways in game as well, so hardly p2w.

 

Also, as for the crystals. They had to make sure that they could be used by pretty much everyone, no point in buying the crystal if it's worthless to you a few levels later. Plus, the extra 30 or so endurance you get, if you use it at a level 10, barely makes any difference at all.

 

I reserve judgement on the matter until p2w stuff actually appears on the GTN.

[kevlarto]

I suspect they were more than intentional, they were a testing of the water.

 

I think allot of gaming companies do this throw something out there that it not quite the norm, and see what the response is, this is a cheap way of doing it don't have to pay a marketing department or do focus studies not saying they do a good job, if large amounts of the player base do not e-rage or cancel accounts they let it ride.. But the damage it does to the company, and the ill will it generates, I don't think most companies can recover, the last few months EA as not done anything with this game that generates any good will toward it's players, at least that is the perception I am getting, heck and I am fan of tha game, and I feel that way, they have taken a big negative faction hit with me, might take them awhile to earn it back if they ever do,,

[KariTalRathe]

Don't forget only the company has the ability to datamine all the information and break it down into intelligent stats. Their decisions are based on a whole perspective, not our own very subjective one. It's all very well claiming that new ways to obtain items hurts crafting (and cannot be denied), but if only a tiny minority were using and profiting from crafting skills then it makes the process redundant to all but those few.

 

I say this as a gamer who enjoys crafting myself (my first and main character is a cybertechnician). I am laughed at occasionally by those who have figured that the best way to make in-game money (in virtually any MMO) is to choose 3 gathering skills and sell the products on to crafters - sod the crafting

 

Craft if you enjoy it and let the designers figure out what to do and how to do it. They really do know best

[-IceHawk-]

I love the combination of Pay-to-Win defenders and "Bioware Knows Best" posts, truly demonstrates the fundamental reason why I am shifting from Defender to Cynical Critic.

 

The +41-Level 10 Crystals are Best in Slot from 10-49.

I have absolutely no reason to engage with an Artificer to gear out my Crystal slots at any point. That is a major concern. Synthweaving is already a useless profession, Crystal-Crafting is now useless to Artificers, Cybertech has had both Custom Speeders and Spaceship Parts taken away from them...

 

And you people do not see a problem with that?

 

End Game Gear in the Cash Shop?

That spells the death knell of Endgame. Why actually play the game when I can drop $40, get a full set of the highest gear, and now ROFLStomp all the content?

 

I am somewhat at a loss for words really...

[Jherad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

[MadBlue]

I really really hate pay to win space. I hit the "cancel" button on my sub over it.

 

You must have had other reasons than just that.

Edited December 24, 2012 by MadBlue

[KariTalRathe]

I love the combination of Pay-to-Win defenders and "Bioware Knows Best" posts, truly demonstrates the fundamental reason why I am shifting from Defender to Cynical Critic.

 

The +41-Level 10 Crystals are Best in Slot from 10-49.

I have absolutely no reason to engage with an Artificer to gear out my Crystal slots at any point. That is a major concern. Synthweaving is already a useless profession, Crystal-Crafting is now useless to Artificers, Cybertech has had both Custom Speeders and Spaceship Parts taken away from them...

 

And you people do not see a problem with that?

 

End Game Gear in the Cash Shop?

That spells the death knell of Endgame. Why actually play the game when I can drop $40, get a full set of the highest gear, and now ROFLStomp all the content?

 

I am somewhat at a loss for words really...

 

Your whole post is very much of the "sky is falling!" type, but I will address it anyway.

 

SWTOR is first and foremost a PvE game, there is no such thing as "pay-to-win" in this game. We aren't here to sell credit (not legitimately anyway), we aren't here to primarily PvP, it is a very casual-friendly MMO with options to go deeper if you wish. So to answer your question, as long as people are having fun in the way they play the game and obtain their items, then no, I don't see a problem with that at all.

 

You say "Why actually play the game when I can drop $40, get a full set of the highest gear", but how many people would actually do so? A few may be happy to obtain their gear in this manner, meanwhile there are probably far more players like myself whose 'free' Cartel Coins remain untouched! Because as you answered yourself, there would be far less reason to play if all goals were achieved at the click of a credit card. But the fact that it is a choice (and a preferred choice for a few only) will in no way affect endgame for the general population - if anything it means people who just wish to raid for the social aspect etc. will be inclined to stay with the game longer than they otherwise might. And that is good for all of us.

[CorellianWannabe]

Don't forget only the company has the ability to datamine all the information and break it down into intelligent stats. Their decisions are based on a whole perspective, not our own very subjective one. It's all very well claiming that new ways to obtain items hurts crafting (and cannot be denied), but if only a tiny minority were using and profiting from crafting skills then it makes the process redundant to all but those few.

 

I say this as a gamer who enjoys crafting myself (my first and main character is a cybertechnician). I am laughed at occasionally by those who have figured that the best way to make in-game money (in virtually any MMO) is to choose 3 gathering skills and sell the products on to crafters - sod the crafting

 

Craft if you enjoy it and let the designers figure out what to do and how to do it. They really do know best

 

If they know best why have so many left? Why was Ilum a fiasco in both incarnations? Why did it take so long to merge the server populations? Allow a lfg system?

 

As for crafting, once people realized DAILY comms bought better mods than could be crafted crafting skills were effectively dead (actually, having orange gear thrown at you constantly had already beaten them up),

[KariTalRathe]

If they know best why have so many left? Why was Ilum a fiasco in both incarnations? Why did it take so long to merge the server populations? Allow a lfg system?

 

As for crafting, once people realized DAILY comms bought better mods than could be crafted crafting skills were effectively dead (actually, having orange gear thrown at you constantly had already beaten them up),

 

I don't understand this attitude that a MMO has to be almost for life to have been successful; we are well passed the era where your choices were EQ, AC or Ultima. Players leave MMOs for many reasons and it need not have any negative reflection on the game at all, it usually says nothing more than "that was fun, now onto the next MMO game".

 

And lol at a LFG system being thought of as important. If there is a problem nowadays it isn't with the games but with the players who expect the game to do everything for them and DO IT NOW.

 

PS: For anyone who wants a game which nurtures its crafters, you might try the brilliant 'A Tale in the Desert' or Vanguard "the best equipment in game will be from crafting" Saga of Heroes.

[Rothie]

I really really hate pay to win space. I hit the "cancel" button on my sub over it.

 

And yet, nobody cares

[Mallorik]

Almost the entire game is p2w, Theres only two things you cant buy with real money to completly deck yourself out in end game pve gear. Armoring mods with set bonuses (you can still buy generic armoring mods) and the Appearance of the gear (that nobody wants).

 

I dont know why its taking the anti p2w people so long to see this, maybe its becuase its not pvp, but its still going to ruin this game. If you let people just buy their gear they get bored and leave. Thats not an oppinion, its a fact most mmo compnies already know. but then again this company thought that an mmo didnt need something silly like a combat window.

 

People are going to keep buying gear off the cartel market and selling it on the gtn for credits to deck them and all their alts out in lvl 63 mods and one by one they will realize that they now have no reason to do dailies or raid and they will move on. Bioware/Ea will get fat whith all the cartel money and when all this "New content" that was already produced finaly runs out and the game actualy costs money to run again they will shut the doors and walk away with all that cartel cash.

[Monoth]

You know more, and more I find myself ok with end game gear in the CM. I mean why not? Just make sure the cost is on par with the cost of Raiding, and what dose matter. So there's another way to get gear so what. I really never got why raider get so worked up over people who don't raid having a way to get raid gear. Look at BH gear you can get it with out raid, but people still raid.

 

The only issue I would have is if the gear in the CM was better then what you can get just by playing the game.

 

The biggest issue is people buying raid gear on the cash shop then they go into a raid with no clue how the mechanics of the raid works because they skipped all the basic raid dungeons that teach you these mechanics thanks to the cash shop... So basically we end up with a bunch of noobs in raid gear.

 

Plus whats the point of even playing the game if you can just buy the best gear in the game? If you do that there's really nothing else to do in the game. It's the only carrot that keeps me playing, give the ability for everyone just to buy everything then the reason for playing goes away...

[funkhouse]

This thread again....Get over it realy.

 

Oh no im going to win through buying lvl7 ship parts on the cartel..Win what realy? Its a single player mini game. Oh thats right people who actualy took the time from their companions lives to craft those items to put them on the gtn for millions are mad....If i were you id be happy they didnt go the route of blizzard did with rmah.