Kerensk Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 When you use an attack that weakens the enemy's armor, does that translate to more DPS stats or just a weaker opponent? The abilities I'm thinking of are the IA's "Shatter Shot" and Commando's "Grav Round" but considering the forum lets stick to Grav Round. So say I stack Grav Round 5 times on a PvP opponent; reducing the target's armor rating by 20% for 15 seconds. Now I lay into him until he dies. Wouldn't my DPS be lower than if I just unleashed a huge amount of damage on him and fought through the full strength armor? So how does my clever job weakening the enemy pay out in stats? I only ask because I'm trying a hybrid Gunnery/Assault spec (0/28/13; more mobile than full gunnery, but less than full Assault). And while my DPS has dropped by about 25% I'm taking down enemy players much faster and easier than before. And if I sit off to the side and use grav round to "soften up" the enemy for the rest of the team to slaughter we clear out much quicker than when I would just DPS the living daylight out of the enemy from the sidelines. My guess is that the soft armor opens up everybody for a quick kill as opposed to just adding my DPS to the pile. TL;DR: The DPS and kills at the end of the match says I'm less capable than before. But the # of wins and enemies falling before us says otherwise. Is there anyway to measure the benefit of bypassing armor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) You get about 8% more damage from kinetic and energy attacks vs heavy armour with a full 20% debuff. If you used internal or elemental attacks you gain nothing. If you have armour penetration on your attacks already you gain less (that means you with the armour piercing cell). You do not get any recognition for debuffing a target, someone may hit a bit more but it doesn't count towards your score. In PVP the fights are so short that a minute of fighting is called an epic battle. Time on targets is usually so brief you cannot benefit from an armour debuff which adds a petty damage increase, what you actually ramp your damage up with is the stacks of charged barrel, gravity vortexes (for demo round) and barrage procs. Those are real damage boosters. Well they are if people don't jump on you when you're casting anyway. Edited December 12, 2012 by Gyronamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerensk Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) That makes sense that it's the damage buffs that are so noticeable; I've been using Incendiary round, plasma hammer shot, and unbuffed HiB so long that I've forgotten what it looks like when a single shot immediately takes out a large chunk of HP (rather than that 15 second slow burn). But I don't think the 20% armor mitigation is anything to dismiss either. Lightsabers do energy damage and so armor mitigates their attacks. Standing off to the side debuffing the enemy while your 3-4 jedi friends swing at them is still a 20% benefit per swing per person. And while most PvP battles last less than 10 seconds, that's roughly 6 GCDs.; multiplied by the number of your group focusing the target. 20% of that can burn down a Juggernaut that much faster. Like you said the key is not standing around too long. I've been a huge advocate for Assault just for the mobility; but I've found that I still have plenty of time to pause for a couple seconds. And since Assault Plastique and plasma cell aren't really pulling their weight I figured it would be nice to hit 2 grav rounds when I got 3 seconds of breathing room. Then I still have 4 rotation attacks on the move I can do while re-positioning. Edited December 13, 2012 by Kerensk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jherad Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 But I don't think the 20% armor mitigation is anything to dismiss either. Lightsabers do energy damage and so armor mitigates their attacks. Standing off to the side debuffing the enemy while your 3-4 jedi friends swing at them is still a 20% benefit per swing per person. And while most PvP battles last less than 10 seconds, that's roughly 6 GCDs.; multiplied by the number of your group focusing the target. 20% of that can burn down a Juggernaut that much faster. 20% armor rating reduction does not mean 20% more damage per hit. It's a lot less than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFishing Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 So how does my clever job weakening the enemy pay out in stats? Your teams energy/weapon/kinetic damage goes up by about 7-8% on the targets you have debuffed. If there is another class debuff (not a merc/commando) present, it can go up by a lot more....but that means your team is focus targeting and the enemy is dying really fast anyway, so it won't matter like it does in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Your teams energy/weapon/kinetic damage goes up by about 7-8% on the targets you have debuffed. If there is another class debuff (not a merc/commando) present, it can go up by a lot more....but that means your team is focus targeting and the enemy is dying really fast anyway, so it won't matter like it does in PvE. Debuffs of the same type don't stack (in PvE at least, I assume it would be the same in PvP), so the Commando & Gunslinger/Guardian armour debuffs won't stack, you'll get the biggest effect (they're all 20%, but the Gunslinger only requires one stack). One thing I'm not entirely sure about, is if there are two Gunnery Commandos using grav round on a target, do their stacks of vortex stack with each other (up to the limit of 5) as far as the bonus damage for Demo Round is concerned? IE, after one shot each, would demo round have an effective 4 stacks of vortex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerensk Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 It's so rare to see another commando, let alone gunnery, but when I glanced at an enemy we were both hitting it looked like there were two separate stacks of grav round. But he was dead so quick it was just a fleeting glimpse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Yeah, it's more something I see in Ops on bosses, you get the individual stacks, I'm just not entirely sure that the game is using the total number of stacks when calculating armour debuffs, Demo Round bonus damage, etc (but I assume it does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJNJ Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Demo round only gets buffed by your stacks, the other set of grav rounds will have no effect They used to, but then got hit by the nerf bat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerensk Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) Your teams energy/weapon/kinetic damage goes up by about 7-8% on the targets you have debuffed. If there is another class debuff (not a merc/commando) present, it can go up by a lot more....but that means your team is focus targeting and the enemy is dying really fast anyway, so it won't matter like it does in PvE. Again I think you guys are being pessimistic. Do you apply your class buffs after each respawn even though it only adds 5% energy/kinetic buff? Grav round does 2/3rds the damage of the assault plastique, buffs HiB, and weakens Armor for the team by 8% per shot. Not many commando attacks have a triple benefit like that (it also has no cooldown, reduces your damage taken, and reduces the cast of Adv. Med Probe to instant but we'll stick to damage benefits right now.) Also while many battles can be won in a few GCDs the game winners are the players that just never die even when you've got more than 2 people on them. Like those heavily buffed Juggernauts on the pre-made that soak up damage like a sponge to keep pile-driving the huttball in. Those tank classes in the heavy Armor are where Armor penetration is most beneficial. And 9 times out of 10 that clincher in the end zone is just squishies like you, a couple gunslingers, and a sage because all the facesmashers are in the center too far away to leap in time. That 8% benefit to all teammates adds up; the 4GCDs as he plods closer multiplied by the 4 people desperately trying to kill him equals 16 buffed attacks. Any class that has an option to increase damage by 8% for 16 attacks would jump on it. Sniper with cluster bombs only gets 6 and they only add about 8% the damage of a snipe, yet they're the 2nd or third attack in the rotation because it adds up for the take down. Not to mention that it's really nice with a surprise 1on1. First grav round they start looking, but they don't find you till the second one, HiB while they're leaping to you and you can have them close to 50% by time they land. If you're lucky enough to knock them back and strafe hammer-shot (that AP cell works better when their armor is already down), you might have a fighting chance, or at least drag it out long enough that a teammate notices they're weak leaps to them for a kill. Edited December 14, 2012 by Kerensk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladwar Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 I only ask because I'm trying a hybrid Gunnery/Assault spec (0/28/13; more mobile than full gunnery, but less than full Assault). right there thats ur problem. beside gav round hit for me 2.5k non crit. this whole soft up and run and hide idea is funny. in good team on wz i can easily get 200k+ damage and around 30-35 kills. stacking into assualt is not going to help u while u are mostly stacked in gunnery. btw its a debuff that does help anyone attacking that person and a new gav round refresh ur stacks if ur at 5 already and debuffs with simalar effect the effect with the biggest effect is the one that is applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladwar Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Demo round only gets buffed by your stacks, the other set of grav rounds will have no effect They used to, but then got hit by the nerf bat it gets buff by the highest set of gav rounds on not by just by the round u have, so if u don't have any up but theres 5 on from a diff commando it gets the buff from his gav rounds unlike Hib charge barrel effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaceen Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 it gets buff by the highest set of gav rounds on not by just by the round u have, so if u don't have any up but theres 5 on from a diff commando it gets the buff from his gav rounds unlike Hib charge barrel effect. he's not talking about the armor penetration, he's talking about demo round's intrinsic feature of increasing damage based on the number of gravity vortexes on the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerensk Posted December 26, 2012 Author Share Posted December 26, 2012 he's not talking about the armor penetration, he's talking about demo round's intrinsic feature of increasing damage based on the number of gravity vortexes on the target. Right and the High Impact Bolt gets its +6% damage(30% stacked) from the charged barrel. Then you have the +20% armor pen. stack of the grav vortex. New question: Does the +30% armor penetration from the high friction bolt stack with the 20% grav vortex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Right and the High Impact Bolt gets its +6% damage(30% stacked) from the charged barrel. Then you have the +20% armor pen. stack of the grav vortex. New question: Does the +30% armor penetration from the high friction bolt stack with the 20% grav vortex? Yes it does but the value of going so far into Assault and wasting unusable points to get that 30% pen on a 15s CD skill is highly dubious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerensk Posted December 26, 2012 Author Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yes it does but the value of going so far into Assault and wasting unusable points to get that 30% pen on a 15s CD skill is highly dubious. You should try it. I'll make a separate post. So what you end up with is the +20% AP Grav vortex, +30% AP Target Lock, +30% AP High Friction Bolt, +30% damage Charged Barrel --> High Impact Bolt. Yeah you only get it every 15 seconds but PvP is so fast and fluent I'm usually on the run to a new position for that time anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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