wadecounty Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Aside from what many people say here - Rage is superior in raid. No one cal tell me otherwise unless they have been on NiM Tanks and can avoid a second DD (me and a marauder can). Thats a single target fight and we avoid every single 2nd DD. Also have Warstriker title - rage all the way. 25% crit is all you need btw. Never give up a chance to stack power for crit. And I did the same with a Powertech, as Vengeance spec, grats. I don't have the title yet, my guild hasn't been doing it much (we went 2 weeks without running it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedTony Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 And I did the same with a Powertech, as Vengeance spec, grats. I don't have the title yet, my guild hasn't been doing it much (we went 2 weeks without running it). Post some parses with your gear listed and based on what you parse ill decide if rage is superior or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teioh_White Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 http://www.torparse.com/a/35535 Only one I can find of myself on a dummy right now. Was about 1830 after 6min A few months old, so no 63 stuff in there. Also, that's higher than normal for me. If I had to put money on what I generally get on a dummy with rage, I'd go with 1775-1800, I've gotten a ton of parses that end in that range. Not super great, and maybe some folks can do better with Veng, though I can't. Off the top of my head, the highest i've gotten in Veng was around 1750 on a dummy, though most are lower. Though, i'd have to do them on the same Op to get a good feel, as Veng gets a nice boost under 30% (rage does as well, but not quite as large), and makes more use of the rage given from AoE's than Rage. I don't have many live action parse of jugg Dps, as I generally always have to tank. I think the last time I actually got to dps was a HM EC in Oct. I can drag that parse out if interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 The returns on 125-150 crit rating are so good that passing them up is silly, even for a spec with heavy reliance on auto crit abilities. Can I have some solid evidence? I have some on the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkitip Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Can I have some solid evidence? I have some on the contrary. What evidence are you after? Mathematically the return on that amount of crit rating is huge. Switching 3 power/accuracy or power/surge to the crit versions gets you to 132 crit rating, which will give you nearly 6% more crit chance. It'll take you another 200 points of crit to get that sort of ROI. If you didn't think crit was of any value, you'd augment for power rather than strength because even with the 6% talent, power is still more raw bonus damage than strength. We augment for strength because the slight crit bonus on each point is worth more than the extra bonus damage from a power augment. It's going to take more than 30 bonus damage to trump 6% crit at that return rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrThundaro Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Well, when I realized how clunky and mishandled Immo is. I decided to try out Rage and holy cow is it fun to play. Anyways I went to http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pve/sith-warrior/sith-juggernaut/rage/stat-priority-and-details and found the Rage spec and it was pretty spot on for a lot of the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 What evidence are you after? Mathematically the return on that amount of crit rating is huge. Switching 3 power/accuracy or power/surge to the crit versions gets you to 132 crit rating, which will give you nearly 6% more crit chance. It'll take you another 200 points of crit to get that sort of ROI. If you didn't think crit was of any value, you'd augment for power rather than strength because even with the 6% talent, power is still more raw bonus damage than strength. We augment for strength because the slight crit bonus on each point is worth more than the extra bonus damage from a power augment. It's going to take more than 30 bonus damage to trump 6% crit at that return rate. Your math is all fine and well. What many fail to realize is that those numbers are not as important as the #1 source of top dps - uptime. You have to understand that many of the 'important' fights (HM TFB, NiM EC) there are many mechanics that bar the ability for 100% uptime. So you must do what you have to to keep your damage high when you are on the boss. Thanks for your numbers- but real proof is in performance, not math. Do you have any achievements that prove the worth of these numbers? or is it all just assumed math? I am parsing higher than any warrior thats ever been in raid with me. Again, Warstalker title. Also, understand that just because I value power over crit does not mean i am willing to sink my crit to nothing JUST for power. Thats a silly argument. I want a balance that i can maintain without any real sacrifice - and I've done that with str. The only time I sacrifice crit raiting is with power - i.e. deft mods to replace the 44 crit nonsense. I also keep 56 str 44 power instead of 72 str 13 power. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkitip Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Are you honestly trying to question my credentials as a means to argue my point? Fine. I'm one of the main raiders in Chosen. You might know us from things like world 2nd 16m HM TfB and world 3rd 16m NiM EC tank kills (pre-nerf). Personally, I'm one of only 2 juggernauts with a top 50 parse on torparse for NiM 16m tanks (the other jugg parses that are in the top 50 were done on HM). Wag your 8m War stalker at someone else that doesn't run 16m NiM. It works better. Uptime is not a good argument against a baseline crit value. It's a good argument FOR it in fact. If you wanted to maximize your damage in a short time you'd want to crit more, not less. There's just not a logical reason to ignore the frankly amazing returns on 125-150 crit rating and all the posturing in the world won't change that. Edited December 21, 2012 by arkitip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Are you honestly trying to question my credentials as a means to argue my point? Fine. I'm one of the main raiders in Chosen. You might know us from things like world 2nd 16m HM TfB and world 3rd 16m NiM EC tank kills (pre-nerf). Personally, I'm one of only 2 juggernauts with a top 50 parse on torparse for NiM 16m tanks (the other jugg parses that are in the top 50 were done on HM). Wag your 8m War stalker at someone else that doesn't run 16m NiM. It works better. Uptime is not a good argument against a baseline crit value. It's a good argument FOR it in fact. If you wanted to maximize your damage in a short time you'd want to crit more, not less. There's just not a logical reason to ignore the frankly amazing returns on 125-150 crit rating and all the posturing in the world won't change that. Well, considering we 1 shot every boss and you have no title, your remarks are only opinions. The FACT remains, none of what you say is a needs assessment but a preference assessment. I love you raid nerds that spend your time talking down to people like me (i am casual... feel bad yet?) because you THIINK your numbers are required to do the things that us little people do. I don't care how much you parse on a standing target - in fact, no one gives a s*it. results are what i care about. Your results from smashing your keyboard 7 days a week vs my 2 days a week means nothing. Efficiency is in skill not numbers. You can't measure that with all the calculators in the world. Good luck in likely continuing to think quantity over quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmViiOLENT Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 lol this guy is trying to wag his warstalker title? really? I have the title on my mara, and my jug tank. Big *********** whoop di doo, we cleared it the first week it was out. 8m is easy as piss, 16 man is truly a whole nother beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teioh_White Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Well, there's really no logic in saying that just because you've done something one way, it's the best way of doing it. It's completely unrelated to the issue of what's best. If you want to argue 'viable', sure, that's an effective train of thought. But just saying that you've done something one way doesn't prove it's the best at all. You have to show other methods aren't as effective. And, I must admit, a bit amusing that you think it's actually a plausible argument. Also, the getting defensive and bragging about a video game is always a good bonus as well. Edited December 21, 2012 by Teioh_White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrema Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Aside from what many people say here - Rage is superior in raid. No one cal tell me otherwise unless they have been on NiM Tanks and can avoid a second DD (me and a marauder can). Thats a single target fight and we avoid every single 2nd DD. Also have Warstriker title - rage all the way. 25% crit is all you need btw. Never give up a chance to stack power for crit. I've been using rage in pve a lot more recently too and am definitely parsing higher (maybe my veng rotation is off, i dont know). The myth of "rage is only good for aoe'ing trash" is totally out the window now, I'm able to out-dps our sniper+mara's on single-target boss fights with rage. Dire - if you dont mind, since you've cleared so much with rage - wanna pick your brain a little lol. Is the bug where datacores dont take aoe dmg in operator IX fixed yet? If not are you respec'ing for that fight at all? And are you sporting double EWH relics? Or u throwing DG's in there too? Lastly, from what I can tell, force crush actually ends up top3 if not 2nd in our overall dmg so in terms of shockwave generation I'm assuming that has highest priority. What about enrage vs choke? Edited December 21, 2012 by Xtrema Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okuy Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Rage is a beast for pve. I'm putting up 1600-1650 with vengeance and 1700-1750 consiststantly with rage. It's garbage cuz not only as rage the prefered spec for pvp, it's the same for pve Mauull the merciless here, guy whos always on your mind. Please feel free to check my signature and rethink that statement. #RageIsDecent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrema Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Mauull the merciless here, guy whos always on your mind. Please feel free to check my signature and rethink that statement. #RageIsDecent Just curious - how often do you hit that high on parses vs the dummy? It seems like an outlier parse due to all the crazy high crit percentages (ie. 61% on impale, 52% shatter etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okuy Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Just curious - how often do you hit that high on parses vs the dummy? It seems like an outlier parse due to all the crazy high crit percentages (ie. 61% on impale, 52% shatter etc). I get over 1900 8 times out of 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkitip Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Just curious - how often do you hit that high on parses vs the dummy? It seems like an outlier parse due to all the crazy high crit percentages (ie. 61% on impale, 52% shatter etc). The parses are slightly edited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okuy Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 The parses are slightly edited. Of course they are, if you played vengeance and ever hit a dummy you would understand if you play it right. which i dont see very often, you would know by the time the dots tic off and combat decides to drop. you already lost about 50-150dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalmartChampion Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Just wondering Mauull how do you never miss? What is your accuracy at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okuy Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 just wondering mauull how do you never miss? What is your accuracy at? 99.88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedTony Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 And your crit is at 46 in the parse, what's your crit and surge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmViiOLENT Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I think he did have an insanely lucky parse, either that or he edited it in the text file... Hopefully not that one! I've had it happen a few times on my mara, when I go from parsing at 2.1k to in one case a 2394 parse.. Same idea, just had an insanely high crit chance rng that particular time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okuy Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I think he did have an insanely lucky parse, either that or he edited it in the text file... Hopefully not that one! I've had it happen a few times on my mara, when I go from parsing at 2.1k to in one case a 2394 parse.. Same idea, just had an insanely high crit chance rng that particular time. http://www.torparse.com/a/78709/time/1355955469/1355955711 http://www.torparse.com/a/46568/time/1352528790/1352529090 were those insanely lucky also? Its juggs like this that give others a ****** rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okuy Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) And your crit is at 46 in the parse, what's your crit and surge? Just because i crit 46% of the time doesnt mean thats my crit chance, that means i know how to keep my buffs up and use forcescream correctly. Edited December 24, 2012 by Okuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okuy Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Feel free to tell me what I should be doing then Lol sorry i rage spec when i see **** like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmViiOLENT Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 http://www.torparse.com/a/78709/time/1355955469/1355955711 http://www.torparse.com/a/46568/time/1352528790/1352529090 were those insanely lucky also? Its juggs like this that give others a ****** rep. In the higher 1916 parse, you hold onto a 51% crit chance on Impale, which ends up accounting for it being nearly 100 dps higher than the other one which has a 30% chance. So yes, that one is more "lucky" than the other. 1800 is still very good nonetheless, congrats; you do know how to play the class. For an example, pre 63 gear my mara in carnage http://www.torparse.com/a/35275 (the lower two dps of the mara pve specs) I got up to 2007 dps, (This is unedited, edited its actually at 2042). It was a lucky parse, with my bleed critting for 35% despite having a barely 30% force crit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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