What is Min/maxing?

[Thorous]

Hi,

 

I am kinda new to swtor and I have been hearing people about min/maxing their gears. What does that mean?

[Vandicus]

It typically refers to pulling out the mods/hilts/enhancements/armorings and other assorted things from gear and replacing them with better or more efficient ones. That's because things like crit chance, crit multiplier and shield chance are governed by formulas that give decreasing returns as a person acquires more of the particular stat governing the trait. So people try to maximize the advantages they derive from their stats. It can also refer to using a specific AC point distribution or rotation. Edited November 28, 2012 by Vandicus

[Deamor]

It's for end game raiding and stuff.

 

Let's assume that your character benefits from Crit the most until you reach 30%.

After that Crit becomes almost useless to your character and Alacrity becomes the best thing after that.

 

So when you get a new item that would give you even more Crit instead of Alacrity, you take out the Crit mod from the item and add a mod that gives you Alacrity instead.

 

 

This is just one example.

It also means fiddling around with your talent trees so that they give you the best possible results, etc etc.

[Vellem]

Min/Max is a general MMO term that refers to using only the best gear, class spec, and rotation available to have an optimal character. You will see it most often with hardcore raiders or pvpers.

[Thorous]

Thanks for the help!

[JediKalel]

It's for end game raiding and stuff.

 

 

Not entirely correct... min/maxing is useful at any point, granted you wont hit high numbers at lower levels, but moving your gearing towards where the numbers should be when you are a 50 as you progress will make leveling and lowbie pvp much better for you and a little easier. If your stats are crap while youre leveling then youre going to have a much more difficult time going than if you start working towards where they should be end game right away

Edited November 28, 2012 by JediKalel

[Hotspur]

Some of the previous replies are perhaps more helpful, but I can't resist adding that min/max literally means getting the maximum amount of benefit from the minimum amount of effort.

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Some of the previous replies are perhaps more helpful, but I can't resist adding that min/max literally means getting the maximum amount of benefit from the minimum amount of effort.

 

That is incorrect.

 

Min/Maxing is an RPG term from long before MMOs were even thought of.

 

What it means is that you try to maximize your strong point(s) and don't try to shore up your weaknesses, even to the point of making yourself weaker in your weak areas.

 

Case in point; If you are a Magic User (old school D&D) you don't try to improve your survivability. Your HP is low, and your armor is pathetic. Since you do good damage already, you work on maxing out your damage, even if you have to give up HP bonuses and/or armor to do it. The sacrifice is the "min" part of "min/max".

[Hotspur]

That is incorrect.

 

Min/Maxing is an RPG term from long before MMOs were even thought of.

 

What it means is that you try to maximize your strong point(s) and don't try to shore up your weaknesses, even to the point of making yourself weaker in your weak areas.

 

Case in point; If you are a Magic User (old school D&D) you don't try to improve your survivability. Your HP is low, and your armor is pathetic. Since you do good damage already, you work on maxing out your damage, even if you have to give up HP bonuses and/or armor to do it. The sacrifice is the "min" part of "min/max".

 

Interesting. So this would be different though than the more recent use of the term which I will suggest is closer to my definition. In your version one might actually be diminishing their overall effectiveness by applying the principle; and in my version one would have to be yielding maximum overall effectiveness at the expense of some situational sacrifice. These gaming and internet terms are so very nebulous though. My version may already be outdated.

[weissbrot]

Imagine an RPG character that chooses to have a small body size and gives up speaking to invest extra points in hacking, flying and being one of only two characters to appear in all nine Star Wars movies...

 

[edit]No, the RPG and Internet term are not really different. The described D&D glass cannon is very effective at what it does. Similarly imagine a Tank maxing his survivability at the expense of being able to deal damage...

Edited November 28, 2012 by weissbrot

[Slipfeed]

Min Maxing is an old term, from the times where games where made for grown ups and freedom in things like gear stats and stat point placement was done by the player and not automatically fed to you by the game.

 

Min / Maxing for your role means choosing a skill build, and only placing stat points, skill points, talent points and gear stat slots that benefit the skills you use in that build or role.

 

You would end up with a DPS, say a Mage archetype with very low endurance (hitpoints) and very high Magic.

 

Because the game did not automatically increase your base stats at each level or group all of your important metrics into a single stat it was possible to screw up. Furthermore, back in the day when men where men and gamers had brains instead of just itchy fingers they needed to scratch on keys, it was possible to screw up a Min / Max character to the point where you could not proceed and had to re-roll.

 

The term has no use in modern diaper changing training wheel games, though some people still use it to make themselves feel better.

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Interesting. So this would be different though than the more recent use of the term which I will suggest is closer to my definition. In your version one might actually be diminishing their overall effectiveness by applying the principle; and in my version one would have to be yielding maximum overall effectiveness at the expense of some situational sacrifice. These gaming and internet terms are so very nebulous though. My version may already be outdated.

 

Well, I probably shouldn't have started by saying you were mistaken.

 

My version is certainly the origin of the term, but probably more likely to be outdated than yours.

 

Although Wikipedia seems to think my version is current.

 

Min-maxing is the practice of playing a role-playing game, wargame or video game with the intent of creating the "best" character by means of minimizing undesired or unimportant traits and maximizing desired ones.

Edited November 28, 2012 by ColonelKer-Nal
More info

[Hotspur]

Well, I probably shouldn't have started by saying you were mistaken.

 

My version is certainly the origin of the term, but probably more likely to be outdated than yours.

 

Although Wikipedia seems to think my version is current.

 

No offense was taken though. I appreciated your reply. Wiki does appear to agree with you there, but I think that in general my version of the term is what is actually being applied; though perhaps not altogether perfectly as many might believe. Someone sooner or often comes up with a better min/max than before. That doesn't fit very well with my version, does it?

Edited November 28, 2012 by Hotspur

[GARhenus]

Some of the previous replies are perhaps more helpful, but I can't resist adding that min/max literally means getting the maximum amount of benefit from the minimum amount of effort.

 

If "effort" pertains to "compensating for lack of necessary stats to achieve a similar result," then i guess it's right in that context.

 

Anyway, when you ask a random DnD guy, their most likely answer is basically divided into two parts

 

1. Minimizing things that are not that essential...

 

2. To maximize those that are

 

In swtor it mostly swapping items and mods to get rid of as much excess/inefficient stats.

 

Some are not aware of this, but min-maxing also applies to talents; you skip talents that are of not much use to you (force breach/situational awareness for example.) so you can spare points in those that will help optimize your talent tree. while you benefit from those talents too, spending the points on other skills will yield greater results.

 

Minmaxing is not set in stone. It depends on your particular objective. An extreme example: theoretically, someone skilled enough to minimize exposure to damage just by using LOS/proper positioning may go so far as to forgo defensive skills, stats, talents, and even abilities and pick more offensive alternatives ( I haven't met anyone ballsy enough to pull this off, if you do, tell me).

 

TL;DR - minmaxing = optimizing stuff

[Hotspur]

If "effort" pertains to "compensating for lack of necessary stats to achieve a similar result," then i guess it's right in that context.

 

Anyway, when you ask a random DnD guy, their most likely answer is basically divided into two parts

 

1. Minimizing things that are not that essential...

 

2. To maximize those that are

 

In swtor it mostly swapping items and mods to get rid of as much excess/inefficient stats.

 

Some are not aware of this, but min-maxing also applies to talents; you skip talents that are of not much use to you (force breach/situational awareness for example.) so you can spare points in those that will help optimize your talent tree. while you benefit from those talents too, spending the points on other skills will yield greater results.

 

Minmaxing is not set in stone. It depends on your particular objective. An extreme example: theoretically, someone skilled enough to minimize exposure to damage just by using LOS/proper positioning may go so far as to forgo defensive skills, stats, talents, and even abilities and pick more offensive alternatives ( I haven't met anyone ballsy enough to pull this off, if you do, tell me).

 

TL;DR - minmaxing = optimizing stuff

 

You tabletop DnD guys are schooling me hard. Hope you're there to help me understand the lore in Neverwinter.

 

We know though that min/max'ing goes well beyond stat optimization--something you actually touched on in your reply, GARhenus, though not to the extent that I was trying to be subtle in hinting about in my original reply. An expanded discussion on the evils of the doctrine is probably inappropriate for this thread, so I won't pursue my line of thought here.

 

Thanks for the info though.

[Lasica]

I think we all agree that Min/maxers are evil and need to be smacked over the head with the monster manual.

[Hotspur]

I think we all agree that Min/maxers are evil and need to be smacked over the head with the monster manual.

 

To hell with subtlety. Well said!

[SleepyKing]

If "effort" pertains to "compensating for lack of necessary stats to achieve a similar result," then i guess it's right in that context.

 

Anyway, when you ask a random DnD guy, their most likely answer is basically divided into two parts

 

1. Minimizing things that are not that essential...

 

2. To maximize those that are

 

In swtor it mostly swapping items and mods to get rid of as much excess/inefficient stats.

 

Some are not aware of this, but min-maxing also applies to talents; you skip talents that are of not much use to you (force breach/situational awareness for example.) so you can spare points in those that will help optimize your talent tree. while you benefit from those talents too, spending the points on other skills will yield greater results.

 

Minmaxing is not set in stone. It depends on your particular objective. An extreme example: theoretically, someone skilled enough to minimize exposure to damage just by using LOS/proper positioning may go so far as to forgo defensive skills, stats, talents, and even abilities and pick more offensive alternatives ( I haven't met anyone ballsy enough to pull this off, if you do, tell me).

 

TL;DR - minmaxing = optimizing stuff

 

This is pretty much it. I'd add that the concept of Min/Maxing assumes that the underlying system includes some kind of tradeoff between stats. For example say you have 60 points to spread across six abilities. Someone might try to build a balanced character of, say, 10 points in each ability. In most game systems, however, that's not the optimal solution. It's usually more effective to max out your most important stat and put the bare minimum into abilities that are not important to the class. For example, a wizard/sage like character would do best to put all available points into an Intelligence ability ("maxing"), while putting as few points as the system allows into a strength ability ("minning").

 

It's often used derisively in RPGs, because you end up with characters with ridiculous traits. Instead of a balanced character, you have fighters that are insanely strong, but are as dumb as house cats, and wizards that are super-intelligent but comically weak. It implies that person that created the character is not interested in role playing, only "winning" by working the system.

 

It's not really that big of an issue in SWTOR and most MMOs, however. The underlying system already assumes min-maxing. Gear for Bounty Hunters and Troopers always stack aim, for example, and there's no expectation that anyone will do anything other than stack their primary attribute. Min-maxing is baked into the system, as it were.

[Revanchis]

I think we all agree that Min/maxers are evil and need to be smacked over the head with the monster manual.

 

Yes! Was just about to say something to that effect. Min-maxing is generally used as an insult, espcially among the more RPing side of PnP players. I always considered a min-maxer someone who tried to strip all the fun out of a game to get the most efficient character possible. It's trying to be the best in the meta-game sense instead of enjoying the game and roleplaying. Basically, they're Munchkins.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Revanchis

[MiraniSedai]

hey're Munchkins.

 

Not quite the word I use for extreme min/maxers but hey yours won't get forum sanctions

 

I will post one caveat. Going Extreme with min maxing can really get you obsessed with it and make you miss some of the great stuff in a game. But doing SOME of it is not all bed. You do want to have enough of the right stats so that you are not dying all the time which also can detract from the game.

[Malastare]

Interesting. So this would be different though than the more recent use of the term which I will suggest is closer to my definition.

 

I suspect that your definition came from a source that didn't actually know what it meant.

 

As stated by other people, min/maxing is a term from (old) D&D, which involved simultaneously seeking the highest and lowest values for various stats in order to achieve the greatest result. Example: In Baldur's Gate (D&D v2?) character creation, you had a certain amount of points you could allocate. Min/maxers in search of high damage characters would dump points into Strength while shorting themselves on things like Intelligence or Charisma. They would seek out the lowest viable stats for those worthless to allow them to focus entirely on the stats that help them.

 

Now, SWTOR doesn't use the D&D system and there are less tradeoff-style decisions, but min/maxing still applies the same way. As an Operative, I stack Crit and Surge (because I get bonuses that help them even further) and seek to minimize the Absorbtion and Alacrity. Neither absorbtion or alacrity actively hurt me, but alacrity gives no benefit for the majority of my abilities (unless I'm a healer) and absorbtion gives no benefit at all. So, any gear that gives bonuses to those stats is a detriment, as I would want to seek out gear of similar stats that stacks the extra bonuses I want.

 

Note: I don't min/max. I prefer more well-rounded characters and to be honest, I find it dull and far too rigid to be enjoyable. However, min/maxing has never been about minimizing effort. It has always been about spending extra effort in character setup to achieve a goal. Of course, that doesn't stop people who have no idea about the history from making wild (and incorrect) guesses as to the definition.