Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) Now bear with me here, I know this sounds crazy since every other mmo does it this way, but seriously ask yourself "why?" Sure, it is intuitive that if you are able to don heavy armor you should be able to don medium or light, but that shouldn't infringe on class balance. The classes are supposedly all balanced in terms of DPS, Healing, and tanking, so why should certain classes get more loot options? Just because their lore says they are able to? That isn't fair. Currently we have (using empire names): Light: Sorcerer, Assassin, Medium: Operative, Sniper, Marauder Heavy: Mercenary, Powertech, Juggernaut So, there should be a fairly equal amount of gear dropped out of all 3 catagories since there is a nice distribution. Why should AC's towards the top have less options? Why should AC's towards the bottom be able to justify dipping into the loot pools of the other armor weights? Edited December 20, 2011 by Morgha
Mojoskye Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Well, I'm sure that the heavy-wearing classes are balanced to where they should be wearing heavy armor to reach their balanced potential. Yes, they have more options on what to wear, but by wearing light armor, they are essentially equivalent to a light-wearing class that is using armor way below their current level.
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 Well, I'm sure that the heavy-wearing classes are balanced to where they should be wearing heavy armor to reach their balanced potential. Yes, they have more options on what to wear, but by wearing light armor, they are essentially equivalent to a light-wearing class that is using armor way below their current level. What you say here is not exactly relevant. Sure, the heavier armor wearers SHOULD seek out heavier armor. That doesn't mean they will, or that they wont have really outdated gear to where lighter armor could be justified. The point is, they CAN take armor from others and therefore they will (and I have already witnessed it as I'm sure most have). Why allow them to at all?
Owera Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Those who roll need for light armor when they wear heavy would probably roll need no matter what, even if they couldn't use them.
Tyrilean Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Another situation that could be fixed simply by discussing loot rules with your group before heading out with them.
Eegorr Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 What you say here is not exactly relevant. Sure, the heavier armor wearers SHOULD seek out heavier armor. That doesn't mean they will, or that they wont have really outdated gear to where lighter armor could be justified. The point is, they CAN take armor from others and therefore they will (and I have already witnessed it as I'm sure most have). Why allow them to at all? I'm sorry, but it's exactly relevant. The fact that heavy armour-wearers can wear light armor doesn't make a difference because they won't if they want to be at all useful at what they do. Any heavy rolling against a medium is a ninja and would be a ninja regardless. Besides, life isn't fair.
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 I'm sorry, but it's exactly relevant. The fact that heavy armour-wearers can wear light armor doesn't make a difference because they won't if they want to be at all useful at what they do. Any heavy rolling against a medium is a ninja and would be a ninja regardless. Um, no that is wrong. In fact, a Juggernaut took a medium armor from me (a Marauder) the other day and it only brought him down like 4 armor but gave him loads of endurance and strength more. It was undeniably an upgrade. And if it doesn't make a difference like you say it doesn't, why allow it at all? "if they want to be at all useful at what they do" c'mon, really? You think this above example makes him "not at all useful" as a character?
Baaddare Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Um, no that is wrong. In fact, a Juggernaut took a medium armor from me (a Marauder) the other day and it only brought him down like 4 armor but gave him loads of endurance and strength more. It was undeniably an upgrade. And if it doesn't make a difference like you say it doesn't, why allow it at all? "if they want to be at all useful at what they do" c'mon, really? You think this above example makes him "not at all useful" as a character? just makes him a ninja
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 just makes him a ninja But the point of the matter is that he would not have rolled on it if he were not able to. Why allow him to, and allow this situation to occur when it can be simply solved by not letting heavier armor wearers wear lighter armor?
Sneakymcstab Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 But the point of the matter is that he would not have rolled on it if he were not able to. Why allow him to, and allow this situation to occur when it can be simply solved by not letting heavier armor wearers wear lighter armor? Only loot rolls though. Quest rewards and especially social armor should still be equipable.
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 Only loot rolls though. Quest rewards and especially social armor should still be equipable. I wouldn't really mind if it worked that way, since it wouldn't affect me, but in all honesty they shouldn't be equip-able either. Why should heavier armor wearers get more options for loot overall? It is an unfair advantage at the character screen which should not exist.
Sneakymcstab Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) I wouldn't really mind if it worked that way, since it wouldn't affect me, but in all honesty they shouldn't be equip-able either. Why should heavier armor wearers get more options for loot overall? It is an unfair advantage at the character screen which should not exist. Social armor is all light armor, specifically so anyone can use them. I just realized quest rewards are always your own armor type so that's a moot point. Random drops, craftables, meh, usually wrong stats anyway. Edited December 20, 2011 by Sneakymcstab
xellfish Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 The OP is right. Game mechanics wise, it makes no sense. Period. No further arguments needed. Even lore wise, it's kind of stupid. I get that mages propably would have a hard time wearing plate armor, but that's kind of invalid in a Star Wars setting. They don't make armor out of steel any more. They're light and flexible. Try telling Luke and Han that they can't use Storm Trooper armor because they're apparently too weak. So, either give everything to everybody, or only allow people to wear the stuff they're supposed to wear.
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 Social armor is all light armor, specifically so anyone can use them. Could be easily solved by throwing in the exact same piece but with "medium armor" or "heavy armor" slapped on. That, or just have no armor type and therefore no restriction.
KithPine Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Hey my synthweaving trooper made all those robes, I want to be able to wear them on my RP server, also its' funny when you pull out the assault cannon in PvP.
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 Hey my synthweaving trooper made all those robes, I want to be able to wear them on my RP server, also its' funny when you pull out the assault cannon in PvP. Why should you be able to wear them on an RP server but the jedi can't wear your heavy trooper armor?
KithPine Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Why should you be able to wear them on an RP server but the jedi can't wear your heavy trooper armor? My attempt at levity failed, such is the nature of heated topics and text based communications. Well actually the issue is protection values and the way classes are designed. Heavy armor offers better protection then light, so light/medium/heavy armor wearing classes survivability is designed around the armor type they wear, to allow light and medium users to wear heavy armor breaks that trend. Now personally I'd like to see tanking abilities based on stats and skills then armor and have your armor just be stat boosters and pretty things to wear, but that has not been the designs of games for quite some time. To rally against some great injustice about a gaming standard is oft times futile and asking to take away a standard to protect your loot from ninja's is just spiteful. Yes we need a better need/greed/pass loot system. Heck I'd kill for an appearance tab that was not armor restricted wouldn't that be super stellar awesome, but asking to take away someone else toys is not so awesome. As to the balance issue, there isn't more options for heavy armor wearers, the lower armors have different stat balances and different armor values and these things matter in the long run, everyone will wear their right armor most of the time, but we will always have ninjas and idiots.
SnoggyMack Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Um, no that is wrong. In fact, a Juggernaut took a medium armor from me (a Marauder) the other day and it only brought him down like 4 armor but gave him loads of endurance and strength more. It was undeniably an upgrade. And if it doesn't make a difference like you say it doesn't, why allow it at all? "if they want to be at all useful at what they do" c'mon, really? You think this above example makes him "not at all useful" as a character? The only reason the medium armor was an upgrade was because the item the Juggernaut was replacing was getting old and was a few levels lower. This all evens out as the levelling progression completes its cycle. At level 50 that Juggernaut will not be wearing any medium armor. Play on. Nothing really to discuss here other than someone being miffed that they lost a roll on an item that they too will outgrow in a day or two.
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 As to the balance issue, there isn't more options for heavy armor wearers, the lower armors have different stat balances and different armor values and these things matter in the long run, everyone will wear their right armor most of the time, but we will always have ninjas and idiots. Yes, there are. You are simply incorrect. A juggernaut DPS in flashpoints or operations is not going to care about armor values (well, his care will be extremely minimal). This isn't even considering the fact that, as in the example I gave earlier, it is not uncommon to severely outgrow a piece of gear you have while leveling and end up finding that a lower weight armor is undeniably an upgrade at that point.
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 The only reason the medium armor was an upgrade was because the item the Juggernaut was replacing was getting old and was a few levels lower. This all evens out as the levelling progression completes its cycle. At level 50 that Juggernaut will not be wearing any medium armor. Play on. Nothing really to discuss here other than someone being miffed that they lost a roll on an item that they too will outgrow in a day or two. A moronic response. Because it doesn't matter further along the line means that it is acceptable in the now? If one class only had their basic "attack" skill for all levels 1-49, but at 50 they got a full skillset comparable to other classes, would that be acceptable in your eyes? Of course not.
Sneakymcstab Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) The only class that can legitimately downgrade armor is a Juggernaut and its mirror as far as I'm aware. All the other classes would have no use for the main stat they'd gain, anyway. I don't really care if they restrict it, since it would be about looks and I hope they'll add lots of social armor for that sort of thing. If one class only had their basic "attack" skill for all levels 1-49, but at 50 they got a full skillset comparable to other classes, would that be acceptable in your eyes? Of course not. That's a wrong analogy for this situation. It's not remotely similar. Edited December 20, 2011 by Sneakymcstab
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 That's a wrong analogy for this situation. It's not remotely similar. How it it not? In fact, it is exactly the same. Inconvenience, an inconvenience not shared by other classes, to one class during the leveling process is admissible because it is ok at 50? It is the exact same scenario.
Colobulous Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Now bear with me here, I know this sounds crazy since every other mmo does it this way, but seriously ask yourself "why?" Because a lot of people can't understand gameplay and reality segregation.
Sneakymcstab Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) How it it not? In fact, it is exactly the same. Inconvenience, an inconvenience not shared by other classes, to one class during the leveling process is admissible because it is ok at 50? It is the exact same scenario. How, exactly, is having to level from 1 to 49 with only one ability the same as a Trooper wearing light armor with caster stats just because he can? Besides that, the analogy would only make sense if the light armor user could suddenly equip medium and heavy armor at 50 but not before. Edited December 20, 2011 by Sneakymcstab
Morgha Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) How, exactly, is having to level from 1 to 49 with only one ability the same as a Trooper wearing light armor with caster stats just because he can? Because you are applying it completely incorrectly? The Juggernaut-Marauder armor issue is much more relevant due to the stats. So, substituting in: How, exactly, is having to level from 1 to 49 with only one ability the same as a Guardian wearing Medium armor with solid stats just because it is an upgrade? And on top of that, it is from the Sentinel's point of view that it is the same. The Sentinel has to deal with a disadvantage that other classes to not have to deal with. This is others from outside of their class justifiably taking gear from them that would otherwise make their leveling process easier. Having more than one ability makes the leveling experience process just as not having that gear upgrade stolen from you does. Or, it can be the same as the fact that the Sentinal has overall less options for gear upgrades. The Guardian has their item pool of X% of the total items that can drop, as well as the X% which should go for Sentinels to get gear upgrades from. The Sentinel does not have this luxary. Once again, having more than one ability is an advantage that makes the leveling process easier just as being able to occasionally pick up that medium armor which is an upgrade makes the leveling process easier for the Guardian. The fact that you got it so twisted around in your head is impressive... Edited December 20, 2011 by Morgha
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