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Tech Tanks are still the red headed step child of PvP


Azrienov

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I'm not letting this issue lay. Tech tanks get the very worst in pvp. They don't mitigate the rapid TTKs for anything, and they don't inflict anything like damage unless they hybridize. Shields are a sad joke when every AC in the game throws out force and tech attacks that punch through armor like paper. This fact is glaringly obvious in the tech tanks.

 

Do you give them armor penetration mitigation?

No

 

Do you give them a way to mitigate the massive amounts of LOL damage?

No

 

In fact, when a force user sees a tech tank guarding a node, they run over them lol style. The development team has a serious design flaw in their game by not designing tanks to anything really. They're taunt/guard bots. They aren't the strongest CCers, and the don't get to be anything like good in 1v1 situations where they're guarding a node alone playing an objective. They simply just don't matter. The only time they're good is when a pocket healer is around and they can use guard and taunts to help in a mix up.

 

Other than that ONE situation, they're completely imbalanced in the worst ways. The fixes are numerous and easy.

You haven't given them one yet.

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I'm not letting this issue lay. Tech tanks get the very worst in pvp. They don't mitigate the rapid TTKs for anything, and they don't inflict anything like damage unless they hybridize. Shields are a sad joke when every AC in the game throws out force and tech attacks that punch through armor like paper. This fact is glaringly obvious in the tech tanks.

 

Do you give them armor penetration mitigation?

No

 

Do you give them a way to mitigate the massive amounts of LOL damage?

No

 

In fact, when a force user sees a tech tank guarding a node, they run over them lol style. The development team has a serious design flaw in their game by not designing tanks to anything really. They're taunt/guard bots. They aren't the strongest CCers, and the don't get to be anything like good in 1v1 situations where they're guarding a node alone playing an objective. They simply just don't matter. The only time they're good is when a pocket healer is around and they can use guard and taunts to help in a mix up.

 

Other than that ONE situation, they're completely imbalanced in the worst ways. The fixes are numerous and easy.

You haven't given them one yet.

 

Oh they'll get to you...right after they fix Mercenaries.

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to be fair, ion pulse, and to a lesser extent explosive surge, make a really annoying sound, and its quite grating on the ears when theyre on me. true dps vans do that as well, but one way or another those fights are usually over too quick for it to really get to me. of course those dont apply to pts, so i'm with you there.
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Simple fix would be, move the reduced cooldown on shield from pyrotech.assault to the 1st tier so every spec gets it because let's be honest this class has 1 defensive cooldown and all 3 specs need it to survive, so swap the endurance buff with the shield talent in the pyrotech/assault tree.
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In all honesty, I have to agree with this. As a Carnage Marauder, I punch through a PT's defenses like a hot knife through butter thanks to Gore. Out of all the tanks, they are, in my opinion, the easiest to kill and deal the least damage.
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Tanks in general could use some more beef. A 31 pt tank is a rarity in warzones these days, because the survivability just isn't there.

 

When I go into a WZ and see a Tank guarding, I should think "this is gonna take a while" not "lol, free kill"

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And what force/tech attacks punch through armor?

 

Death field? Flame burst? Some little more?

 

OMG that's a lot.

 

I'm pretty sure he means bypassing their shield chance, parry chance,deflect chance, that would be every force/tech attack in the game, and yeah, that is a lot.

Edited by Devilk
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Tech tanks get the very worst in pvp. They don't mitigate the rapid TTKs for anything, and they don't inflict anything like damage unless they hybridize. Shields are a sad joke when every AC in the game throws out force and tech attacks that punch through armor like paper. This fact is glaringly obvious in the tech tanks.

 

A 31 pt tank is a rarity in warzones these days, because the survivability just isn't there.

 

I disagree: http://imgur.com/Ulzz5

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And what force/tech attacks punch through armor?

 

Death field? Flame burst? Some little more?

 

OMG that's a lot.

To clear up the "punching through armor" bit:

Shield and defense are completely useless against all Force and Tech type abilities, they only work against melee and ranged.

 

With armor however, the type of ability does not matter, what matters is the type of damage.

Armor works against Kinetic and Energy damage (sometimes also referred to as "weapon damage"), but not against Elemental and Internal damage (so stuff like bleeds, burns, fire, and so on).

 

Wow, nice numbers by that Jugg tank. :)

 

I wish I would get into games with that many healers. :(

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It's not just Powertech/Vanguard tank, it's tank stats and tank design in general.

 

Shields could, in theory, still be useful. Ambush/Aimed Shot, Ravage/Master Strike, Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt, Dispatch/Vicious Throw, Takedown/Quickdraw - very hard hitting attacks that deal white damage. However, as crits bypass shield entirely, shield's usefulness is limited even against these (just consider the fact that almost all Powertechs/Vanguards use the Eliminator set for the 15% extra crit chance on HIB/Railshot).

 

And of course shields are useless against every Force or Tech attack which also take Defense rating out of the account. The tanks still have some extra survivability: the tank stance increases armour rating significantly which helps somewhat (although the Balance, Dirty Fighting and Assault trees - all shared trees! - can negate that almost completely with huge amounts of internal/elemental damage) but is increased armour rating proportional to their significantly lower DPS? No.

 

Quite simply, in a 1v1 between a DPS and a full tank, the DPS will win EASILY. Because their damage dealing potential is FAR higher than the tank's survivability. This is the worst imbalance in PvP, not class balance problems (those exist as well), in my opinion. Tanks can't kill anything and can't really survive against anything. I know all of the above is pretty much common knowledge but it doesn't hurt to repeat it every once in a while.

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Quite simply, in a 1v1 between a DPS and a full tank, the DPS will win EASILY. Because their damage dealing potential is FAR higher than the tank's survivability. This is the worst imbalance in PvP, not class balance problems (those exist as well), in my opinion. Tanks can't kill anything and can't really survive against anything. I know all of the above is pretty much common knowledge but it doesn't hurt to repeat it every once in a while.

 

while I agree, it's worth pointing out that it does take longer to kill the tank because aside from maras/sents, he has appreciably better dcds than any other AC, his mitigation/dodge baseline does spare him some dmg, and he has more health to dps down. that doesn't make the 1v1 a contest, but it does mean more gcds to bring him down and start channeling the node/door/etc.

 

all of that said, the real value of a tank is to mitigate dmg to healers and leap to ppl with a spiked ball in hand.

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while I agree, it's worth pointing out that it does take longer to kill the tank because aside from maras/sents, he has appreciably better dcds than any other AC, his mitigation/dodge baseline does spare him some dmg, and he has more health to dps down. that doesn't make the 1v1 a contest, but it does mean more gcds to bring him down and start channeling the node/door/etc.

 

all of that said, the real value of a tank is to mitigate dmg to healers and leap to ppl with a spiked ball in hand.

 

More health, yeah; better defensive cooldowns? A full Juggernaut tank has access to ONE extra defensive cooldown and that is on a 3 minute CD. A Shadow tank gets nothing as far as I'm aware, except two extra seconds on Resilience. A Vanguard tank definitely gets nothing DPS specs don't have access to which sort of confirms the thread's premise that they are indeed the worst off in PvP as their entire tree seems to be based on increasing the shield chance and shield absorption which goes right out of the window in most situations in PvP.

 

A Shadow hybrid in DPS gear can mitigate damage to healers almost as well as any 31-point tank but can do meaningful damage, too. Of course the best healer protector is the Defense/Vigilance hybrid because of Saber Ward, Warding Call and Focused Defense+Commanding Awe - at least they have quite a few damage reduction abilities thanks to speccing high into a DPS tree. I certainly wouldn't take any 31 point tank instead of these into a warzone which says a lot about tank design from a PvP aspect.

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full shield spec has a ton more absorb. full tank gear has more mitigation and defense. yes, that's white dmg. but that's still dmg they aren't taking that your dpser/healer is taking. an extra 2s on resilience is huge. one extra dcd for a full tank is significant as well. I'm not arguing that it's more advantageous (and fun!) to hybrid or go dps. I'm simply pointing out the fact that a full tank *will* last longer and absorb more dmg (e.g., guarding healer) than a tank class in dps spec/gear. i'd rather pop gbtf when I'm about to die for an extra 5...no...4s? in any case, the point is that the full on tank is going to cost a few more gcds. that is noticeable. is it worth it? meh. but it's noticeable.
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Tanks in general could use some more beef. A 31 pt tank is a rarity in warzones these days, because the survivability just isn't there.

 

When I go into a WZ and see a Tank guarding, I should think "this is gonna take a while" not "lol, free kill"

 

I don't need to add anything.

 

Oh, yes, there is a thing I could add : this why I stopped tank specs and only run full DPS.

 

 

PS : and that won't change until they change healers (not a nerf, but a change in the way of working) : More operation focused, less single-target focused. They are so much focused on single-target heals, that they need to be very very strong in order to be sufficent while having to change the target of the heals, and so the single-target heal are sooo strong that a tank even with the laughable survivabilty he have by himself become immortal. If they were to have more group-heals, more HoTs and bubbles (depending on healing classes) they would be able to provide enough healing for a group, but less focused on a single target, allowing room for individual survivability (and not letting the tank suicide with guard allowing them to use it on other people other than healers who know that if the tank dies, they die too).

Edited by Altheran
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The ultimate point I was trying to show here is that tanks (even PT tanks) are perfectly viable for PvP. It's taken me several months to find a good balance between DPS and shield stats that work.

 

Yes, it sucks that shield/absorb doesn't work against yellow damage. Since everyone stacks crit/surge, and critical hits can't be shielded, there's not a lot of white damage attacks that can be defended against either. That said, shielding DOES work and it DOES play a role in the survivability of a PvP tank.

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I'm not letting this issue lay. Tech tanks get the very worst in pvp. They don't mitigate the rapid TTKs for anything, and they don't inflict anything like damage unless they hybridize. Shields are a sad joke when every AC in the game throws out force and tech attacks that punch through armor like paper. This fact is glaringly obvious in the tech tanks.

 

Do you give them armor penetration mitigation?

No

 

Do you give them a way to mitigate the massive amounts of LOL damage?

No

 

In fact, when a force user sees a tech tank guarding a node, they run over them lol style. The development team has a serious design flaw in their game by not designing tanks to anything really. They're taunt/guard bots. They aren't the strongest CCers, and the don't get to be anything like good in 1v1 situations where they're guarding a node alone playing an objective. They simply just don't matter. The only time they're good is when a pocket healer is around and they can use guard and taunts to help in a mix up.

 

Other than that ONE situation, they're completely imbalanced in the worst ways. The fixes are numerous and easy.

You haven't given them one yet.

 

I actually think Van/PT tanks only issue is that too many attacks can't be shielded or dodged. If bioware's going to keep putting "tank" secondary stats on the gear, that's something they should probably look at adjusting.

 

Edit: will say this, though: When tank specced, I solo guard nodes with a Van (about all they're good for in the 50 bracket). These guys can delay for help for quite a long time unless there are 3 opponents.

Edited by Larry_Dallas
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Enhance the capstone talent and second-highest-tier for all tank specs (darkness 31, immortal 31, Shield 31) to give them a 15/30/45% chance to have their defense/shield affect yellow damage only in PvP in tank stance.

 

e.g. So if my defense chance is 30% against white damage, I can get an almost 15% defense chance against yellow damage.

 

This would make us last longer against all the yellow damage out there. In return, you can further nerf our damage when in tank stance (although that would make Jugg tanks so friggin hilarious).

 

Of course, tank+heal would be a tad overpowered, but whatever...

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