MorgonKara Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 This thread is basically the exact argument against damage meters that came about when they were first brought up on these forums. People get tunnel-vision when they start looking at their damage numbers and forget to consider other factors. So optimal spec toon with BIS gear doing the optimal rotation of attacks does slightly more damage than the next optimal spec toon with BIS gear doing the optimal rotation of attacks. Any proper DPS class can beat the content when you're actually playing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerJBD Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 LOL, the OP is actually complaining about Shadows and Assassins DPS? Yikes Sometimes I really gotta wonder how much of a alpha class "IWIN Design" players really want handed to them in this game. If your coming in at bottom of damage charts playing ANY DPS build on assassin or shadow characters. The problem is NOT the character design. Its the player playing the classes. Uh, no, OP (me) is complaining about the general lack of balance between DPS specs. Scoundrels are by far the worst. Sages and Sorcerers also have a legitimate complaint. Shadows and Assassins can parse near the top with balance/madness but not with infiltration/deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerJBD Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) This thread is basically the exact argument against damage meters that came about when they were first brought up on these forums. People get tunnel-vision when they start looking at their damage numbers and forget to consider other factors. So optimal spec toon with BIS gear doing the optimal rotation of attacks does slightly more damage than the next optimal spec toon with BIS gear doing the optimal rotation of attacks. Any proper DPS class can beat the content when you're actually playing the game. Slightly more damage would be the ~5 percent the devs have said they intended. That is clearly acceptable. What is not acceptable is 10-12 percent difference we are seeing in reality. When you are in a guild that is progression raiding, a 10 percent difference in DPS is massive. That's why you will never find a serious raiding guild that takes a DPS Scoundrel on a progression raid. Your ability to clear content should be based on skill and gear, not advanced class. It is not acceptable that certain DPS classes have to either be carried through content or have higher gear levels to clear content than other classes. You also don't need a DPS meter to see this. Serious raiders were aware of these disparities before they added combat parsing. The numbers have simply confirmed what everyone already knew. Edited October 27, 2012 by SoonerJBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokdron Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Yeah bioware has been smacking operatives dps specs with the nerf bat its almost sad now actually. I personally don't know what the heck bioware is doing with sage/sorc I bet they did not even read the class feedback topic THEY created there are many complaints about sorc/sage dps specs. Heh I bet you don't see marauders/snipers complaining about their dps. I do recall a marauder getting 1 million damage overall in pvp. Heck I even found the topic. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=545881 Oh his biggest hit was 7387 damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) Serious raiding guilds and progression raids in SWTOR? You got to be kidding. Drunken keyboard-turning clickers beat the raids in this game lol. Edited October 27, 2012 by MorgonKara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerJBD Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 Serious raiding guilds and progression raids in SWTOR? You got to be kidding. I'm sure you cleared HM TFB the first week it was out. Surprisingly many guilds did not and the vast majority of raiders are still working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubernetic Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid. This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening? I have to say, as a DPS Scoundrel in PVP, I really struggle to keep my DPS up as high as it can be. I've worked on rotations and have the most devastating attacks lined up for the most amount of bang for the energy involved, but it's a good day in 50 PVP when I can break 200k damage in a warzone, while others are hitting 400k, 500k, 600k and higher. The fact that I have to be stealthed to use one of the heaviest-hitter attacks is one problem, in that I can only be stealthed twice in that short amount of time, so it's a limited-use attack. At this point, since DPS Scoundrel is such a bust, now I have to level a Gunslinger up to 50 so that I can transfer all of my PVP gear over and try to get some use out of it. I could just go healer, and I may at some point, but I prefer playing as DPS, and it looks like I picked a dud with Scoundrel. Well the Devs have a few months left. I've pledged to Chris Roberts' Star Citizen and if the 50 PVP trees aren't matched up eventually and evened out, I'll be dogfighting in the black rather than standing around being force lightninged to death by a Sorcerer. Edited October 27, 2012 by Kubernetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthSylar Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Negative, I am not doing any such thing... I am also talking about PvE. I am merely saying that I do not buy into this statistical math dogma so many are immersed in. Boots on the ground will make a mockery of your statistics every time. Human intuition, on the spot decision making, the ability to diverge from a set plan (or "the best rotation" or whatever you would like to argue) to execute it in a different way regardless of the information given... not to mention SKILL. I know your math is accurate but it is irrelevant because there is not a single human consciousness behind any of your simulated toons or fights... they are simulations! Once you place humans into the equation you will see your numbers become very different. you are completely missing his point. whether his numbers are right or wrong, what he's sayin is YOU would do more damage as a Sniper than a Scoundrel if the gear was the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidichIorian Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) The kicker here is that people claim that BW tried to "balance" things around PvP but the balance in PvE, while not being great, is still better than the one in PvP. Edited October 27, 2012 by MidichIorian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerJBD Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 This has nothing to do with PvP. This is strictly a question of PvE. PvP balance is a completely different issue. The dev statement I referred to about keeping the DPS classes within 5 percent of each other was about PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiltonium Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Serious raiding guilds and progression raids in SWTOR? You got to be kidding. Drunken keyboard-turning clickers beat the raids in this game lol. this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm infiltration, in and end-game guild and I parse with the big boys. It's not nearly as bad as you make it seem. What is your actual sample size of the lower dps specs? Are you just basing it on what you read on here? You are huh? I would like to see some sort of evidence to back this up. My main is a Deception Assassin (your sister build) and I can assure you, I am nowhere near the big boys. Sure, I can min max like mad and maybe get a bit closer, but the DPS simply is not there. You can ask around in game and anybody you talk to will tell you, they would rather not have a DPS Assassin on their raid teams. People do not just make this stuff up. There are reasons people shy away from certain builds. I would like to see your parser info, your build and your group's build/stats. If you are with the big boys, I have to assume you far out gear them. There is no way you are coming even close to a Carnage Spec Marauder that has a build that has similar stats to yours. If you are, I would like to see proof...and if you can provide proof, then I want to shake your hand and find out how you are pulling it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SentinelDranoel Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid. This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening? Get this crap out of my casual game. If it bleeds it dies. Stop trying to turn SWTOr to something it is not. I bet a small percent of players even care about how much damage they due compared to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) Get this crap out of my casual game. If it bleeds it dies. Stop trying to turn SWTOr to something it is not. I bet a small percent of players even care about how much damage they due compared to others. Then I would love to meet these happy go lucky guilds of yours who prefer your Assassin over an evenly geared Marauder. They don't exist. I hate how people seem to think "it's the skill of the player...blah blah blah." Really? You are honestly going to sit here and tell me that it takes "the skill of the player" to figure a rotation out and how to maximize your rotations? This game is not that hard...at all. It's not hard to figure out a rotation, it's not hard to learn when the best times are to use certain skills. It's not hard to learn when you burn your cool-downs. It's not as complicated as you make it out to be. I'm sorry, it's not the skill of the player, it's the lack of DPS from certain trees. Period. No matter how you want to stroke your own ego and try and tell us otherwise. You think you are talking to idiots here? You think you are talking to people who do not know any better? Do you honestly think your "skill" is any better than mine? Get of it...please. The OP is right. Anyone who has any bit of sense what so ever will tell you he is right. People don't just shun certain builds for no reason. It's not "pick on Deception/Infiltration" month. Those numbers are solid, whether it be played by a simulator or a human being. Edited October 28, 2012 by Wraiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karasuko Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid. This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening? This is actually easy to understand. The 5% rule for those that don't get it is...... All specs are within the 5% threshhold, its just the outliers are exactly that, theyre outliers. Every spec is within 5% from the middle which is the devs design goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiltonium Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Get this crap out of my casual game. If it bleeds it dies. Stop trying to turn SWTOr to something it is not. I bet a small percent of players even care about how much damage they due compared to others. get your casualness out of my genre. Its that kinda crap that has made MMOs a snorefest where you throw your keyboard at the wall and down a raid boss. End game content is not meant to be for "casuals" Its meant to take hours and hours if not days and give people who play a LOT something to work for. Go grind your black hole comms, do your space missions, and let the big boys talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariaD Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Slightly more damage would be the ~5 percent the devs have said they intended. That is clearly acceptable. What is not acceptable is 10-12 percent difference we are seeing in reality. When you are in a guild that is progression raiding, a 10 percent difference in DPS is massive. That's why you will never find a serious raiding guild that takes a DPS Scoundrel on a progression raid. Who decides that 5% is CLEARLY acceptable and 10% is not? There is a magic line between, somewhere - say, is 8% acceptable or not? The point I am trying to make is that this distinction seems a bit arbitrary to me. Second, you claim that serious raiding guilds never take Scoundrel DPS. Have you checked them all? Or do you define "serious" as "not taking Scoundrel DPS on raids"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) Who decides that 5% is CLEARLY acceptable and 10% is not? There is a magic line between, somewhere - say, is 8% acceptable or not? The point I am trying to make is that this distinction seems a bit arbitrary to me. Second, you claim that serious raiding guilds never take Scoundrel DPS. Have you checked them all? Or do you define "serious" as "not taking Scoundrel DPS on raids"? Ugh, isn't it obvious? I mean, do you not pay attention? I say let's end this debate. I say let the Devs come in here and tell us what they are finding on their end. The evidence is everywhere you look to verify what the OP is saying, even after all his evidence, you guys are demanding he provide more. He has shown Parcer percentages, he has shown both simulated and player made, it is common knowledge that most people in game would rather not take certain classes who have certain builds, yet you guys want more. You want more proof to back his claims, yet you provide nothing to back your own. I think he has shown enough proof to back his claim...it's time you either show your own proof to back yours, or stop demanding he shows more than he already has. Edited October 28, 2012 by Wraiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samoth_Nomad Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Good thread. Definitely needs to be addressed. What I want to see, is the raid parses of the scoundrels and sages that have posted in here, stating they hang with the other dps classes in their raids........Not so much to see their "awesome" numbers, but more to laugh at how horrible their sents, slingers and vanguards must be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawelc Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I agree nerf vanguards. Ability to offheal, taunt or guard should add 5% to the base 5% meaning the 2 pure dps classes should be ~10% above the other dps classes which is what your parses show for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiltonium Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) I agree nerf vanguards. Ability to offheal, taunt or guard should add 5% to the base 5% meaning the 2 pure dps classes should be ~10% above the other dps classes which is what your parses show for the most part. wait what. vanguards cant heal. And the only ACs that can ONLY dps are sniper/gunslinger and sentinel/marauder. and their DPS -is- about 10-12% higher. Edited October 28, 2012 by Chiltonium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawelc Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 wait what. vanguards cant heal. And the only ACs that can ONLY dps are sniper/gunslinger and sentinel/marauder. and their DPS -is- about 10-12% higher. read what I wrote again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiltonium Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 read what I wrote again. I cant actually read, just pick out words I want to complain about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerJBD Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 Ah, yes the "pure DPS class" nonsense makes its appearance. DPS Vanguards can't tank. DPS Sages can't heal. They aren't spec'd for it, and when they try to do it, they do it poorly and even more severely gimp their DPS. All DPS classes are pure DPS classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerJBD Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 This is actually easy to understand. The 5% rule for those that don't get it is...... All specs are within the 5% threshhold, its just the outliers are exactly that, theyre outliers. Every spec is within 5% from the middle which is the devs design goal. All DPS classes within 5 percent of each other does not mean 5 percent from the middle. That would be a 10 percent spread. All DPS classes within 5 percent of each other means exactly what it sounds like it means. Top specs should do no more than 5 percent better than the lowest specs. And by the way, they aren't even meeting your fictional 10 percent threshold. Scoundrels are 12 percent or more behind Snipers and Marauders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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