Level the playing field

[Ssfbistimg]

You are presuming that everyone has as much time on their hands to play this game as you do.

 

Getting 3500 RWZs and 2000 regular comms inbetween 40 and 50 is actually quite a struggle in my opinion, but I digress.

 

It takes a few days to be in full BM gear perhaps, but in order to fully augment it you need to spend a minimum of 420000 credits (14 gear slots x 30k cost to apply MK-6). When you reach level 50 you typically have enough money to buy your new abilities and a speeder, unless you've been playing on the GTN during levelling, or if you have a main character to leech money from. 420000 credits is the minimum cost, but a more realistic number would be; ~1800000 credits, unless you craft some of the things yourself. Getting epic augments is a real chore though, since you have to rely on chance with epic mats. That is an insane amount of cash, especially for a new player. That means that, aside from grinding WZs in order to get BM gear, they'll have to farm dailies, and those are barely any fun the first time you do them.

 

And if you do decide to augment your BM gear you are setting yourself back financially in the game, because in order to get War Hero items you need to trade in your augmented BM items. So there's another 420000 credits. 540610 if we're going to be nitpicky, unless you're stupid enough to not remove the augments before you trade in the item.

 

If you have a complete lack of objective vision, then sure, it's not hard for you to gear up. It is not very hard for me either. But I can understand why some people think that it is, and I agree with them. I would love to see the gear gap significantly reduced, or preferably, a whole remake of the entire end game to make it scale horizontally. All my thoughts regarding that matter you can read in the link in my signature, if you're interested.

 

 

 

Because it was a pug and someone had to take the side, I would imagine. Here's a fun little fact though, if he had worn full war hero, he would have survived those three GCDs and he would have been able to stun me and call for help. Of course, had he worn full war hero I wouldn't have tried to kill him, I would have tried to ninja the base, but that is a subject for another topic.

 

on first part: PVE DAILIES take about 2 hours and nets you between 200 & 300k. I raised 3500RWZ and 2000 regular comms in 4 levels (46,47,48,49) So again if you are planning to do 50's PVP and you feel the grind is too much.. then make sure you grind your comms when you have the advantage (in your 40's)

2nd part: Yes My full warhero sage can solo guard a turret against a pug group, but it still isnt recommended. But I wouldn't even try it in a ranked match. I quit alot of Novarre coasts when everyone goes South and expects my sage to go west.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[Majspuffen]

on first part: PVE DAILIES take about 2 hours and nets you between 200 & 300k. I raised 3500RWZ and 2000 regular comms in 4 levels (46,47,48,49) So again if you are planning to do 50's PVP and you feel the grind is too much.. then make sure you grind your comms when you have the advantage (in your 40's)

 

Again, not everyone have as much time :/ 2 hours may not seem much to you, but for some people that might be all the time they have on a regular day. And spending those two hours on dailies isn't time well spent. We play games to have fun.

[Ssfbistimg]

Again, not everyone have as much time :/ 2 hours may not seem much to you, but for some people that might be all the time they have on a regular day. And spending those two hours on dailies isn't time well spent. We play games to have fun.

 

but how is this any different then if they want to do endgame PVE. No one ever cries about the PVE gear grind. You cant hit 50 and say you know what I think I should be able to do NightMare flashpoints. No one will take you and you will be kicked if you try and use group finder. You start by grinding dailies for armor mods. then you do normal 50 flashpoints, then you start grinding some of the easier HM flashpoints. So why does everyone expect to be instantly allowed to be uber in endgame pvp.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[FourTwent]

Again, not everyone have as much time :/ 2 hours may not seem much to you, but for some people that might be all the time they have on a regular day. And spending those two hours on dailies isn't time well spent. We play games to have fun.

 

people take level 50 bracket seriously, it's where they hone their skills for rateds

 

would you complain that you can't immediately run nightmare mode operations right when you hit 50? if you tried it wouldn't be fun right?

 

same concept. you must spend time gearing up. its your choice if you choose to do this or not. dont QQ on the forums about 'balance' though

[Majspuffen]

To both posters above;

 

PvE is incremental. You will always have a challenge to your current gear level. If you are a fresh level 50, you have normal flashpoints. When you've beaten those, you have heroic flashpoints. When you've beaten those, you hop into operations etc.

 

PvP is not incremental. If you compare it to PvE, it's as though you are thrown into a nightmare operation when wearing fresh level 50 gear. That is why gear has no place in PvP. You could introduce a valor rank bracket, but that is only going to have a negative effect on queue times, unless they implement cross-servers, which may have a negative effect on the game as a whole.

 

But heck, if we're allowed to be hypothetical then I would love to have a valor rank bracket. If there were enough players to make such an option a possibility, that would be awesome. My operative is rank 98 so everyone I would fight and fight with would have full war hero gear. That'd be super.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Majspuffen

[Ssfbistimg]

To both posters above;

 

PvE is incremental. You will always have a challenge to your current gear level. If you are a fresh level 50, you have normal flashpoints. When you've beaten those, you have heroic flashpoints. When you've beaten those, you hop into operations etc.

 

PvP is not incremental. If you compare it to PvE, it's as though you are thrown into a nightmare operation when wearing fresh level 50 gear. That is why gear has no place in PvP. You could introduce a valor rank bracket, but that is only going to have a negative effect on queue times, unless they implement cross-servers, which may have a negative effect on the game as a whole.

 

it is increment. you do some pvp you get comms. you do more pvp you get more comms. how is this not increment. No one says you have to solo queue when in recruit. I know many guilds who take recruit gear players into rateds to help them gear up. They also do 4 man premades with 1 of them recruit gear. Bioware even gives you free starter gear. wheres my free starter gear for pve...thats right it dont exist. When I hit 50 I want a free set of Tionese gear.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[Majspuffen]

it is increment. you do some pvp you get comms. you do more pvp you get more comms. how is this not increment. They even give you free starter gear. wheres my free starter gear for pve...thats right it dont exist.

 

Because you do not fight opponents at your gear level.

 

The point of PvE is to progress and beat new encounters. Once you've gotten a full set of PvE gear and beaten all bosses, your PvE experience is complete until they release a new tier.

 

The point of PvP is competition. And in order to compete you need to get the very best gear available. When you've farmed for a full set of War Hero, that is when you can start playing competitively for real. The difference is that the PvP progression happens in the same instances, whereas the PvE content progresses forward and adjusts to your gear. It's two different kinds of gameplay, and gear grind suits one but not the other. (Although I personally would've liked to see a horizontal scaling for PvE as well)

 

And if you argue against that, then tell me that I am wrong when I say this:

People care more about personal rating than gear.

 

In theory, the fastest way to gear up in this game is to play Rated Warzones. But in practice, no one uses rated warzones to gear up. Maybe they'll use them to get one or two pieces that they are missing, but when a guild builds a serious RWZ team they expect every single member to have good gear. It's ironic.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Majspuffen

[Ssfbistimg]

Because you do not fight opponents at your gear level.

 

The point of PvE is to progress and beat new encounters. Once you've gotten a full set of PvE gear and beaten all bosses, your PvE experience is complete until they release a new tier.

 

The point of PvP is competition. And in order to compete you need to get the very best gear available. When you've farmed for a full set of War Hero, that is when you can start playing competitively for real. The difference is that the PvP progression happens in the same instances, whereas the PvE content progresses forward. It's two different kind of gameplay, and gear grind suits one but not the other.

 

And if you argue against that, then tell me that I am wrong when I say this:

People care more about personal rating than gear.

 

In theory, the fastest way to gear up in this game is to play Rated Warzones. But in practice, no one uses rated warzones to gear up. Maybe they'll use them to get one or two pieces that they are missing, but when a guild builds a RWZ team they expect every single member to have good gear. It's ironic.

 

It is same in PVE. do you like to bring undergeared players into nightmare flashpoints? Endgame PVP is the same. The point of endgame PVP is also to progress and get better gear. The new recruit gear isnt bad gear. There are tons of players who do very good with it. There are also plenty of really good players who use PVE gear to do PVP. Yes There is a gear gap. Even if there wasn't a gear gap all these people would still be crying that 50 pvp isn't fair. If this was a 1 vs 1 pvp then they would have a point. PVP tho is 8 vs 8 (well mostly anyways sometimes you don't have 8) I don't have to be able to kill you 1 vs 1. All I need to do is be able to react to calls for help, make timely inc calls, follow kill order & play the objectives. There are many warzones where we are dominated stat wise and we still win. Also been many where we dominated stat wise and lose. The problem is way to many people don't grasp this concept. You know that you are in Recruit gear then why are you off by yourself trying to 1 vs 1 a BiS Fully Augmented Warhero player. Yes if you load into a warzone that has mostly other recruit gear players that can be ruff. But again solo queuing for warzones is just like using group finder in PVE...you never know what you will get.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[SovereignConvict]

Welcome to the big boy's bracket.

 

Please leave your level 49 attitudes at the door.

 

This is the single reason why operatives got nerf'd and further nerf'd because of the lack of understanding about the class to begin with...

 

I'm not sure which nerfs you're referring to, but the ones I'm thinking about pertain to how Operatives, when the game launched, could sneak up on you while being unable to be detected, and then CC you, and then re-cc you if you used your CC Breaker, and kill you even if you had 100% health when they started. There was no defense to that other than, "Have someone else around you to heal you."

 

That was a much needed nerf. And, post 1.4 Resolve Change, this ability is back. I have yet to see any full WH geared and fully augmented character able to 1v1 an Operative with the correct spec since 1.4 went live. AND, a lot of them run with a second Operative friend, thus making it even more impossible for even two players to take them on 2v2.

 

If there is no possible response to an attack, then it has to be nerfed. And, before you reply, please watch this video so you understand how to make a cogent argument.

 

[Majspuffen]

It is same in PVE. do you like to bring undergeared players into nightmare flashpoints? Endgame PVP is the same.

 

But the difference is that you don't gear up in the nightmare operation. Not until you've gotten gear good enough to tackle the challenge. I.e PvE always caters to your gear level.

[Kalfear]

That being said: The fix is simple.

Bioware's stupidity: Unfixable.

 

Seperate wz's based on avg item levels.

 

I explained it in more detail in another thread so no I won't get into details about it. Not like Bioware will listen to what the community says anyways especially those of us who don't contribute to the financial stability of the game in large abundance.

 

Ive posted this a few times and ill say it here

the solution is a simple 4 point plan to create a level playing feild in PVP

 

1) normal solo que but with 2 differences (1- can only que up 2 person groups. 3 and 4 person groups would be placed in the pre made que. 2- to enter and stay in normal wz you must never have more then 1225 expertise on your character. Ive you que up and then add wh gear pushing expertise over 1225 you are instantly removed from warzone and receive a 30 minute lock out penalty for trying to cheat system)

 

2) Advanced solo que. Same as above but its only players with 1226 or more expertise on character (no lock out or removal for removing gear and going under once inside)

 

3) Pre made que. Pretty straight forward, any 3 or 4 man groups are placed in the pre made que to face other pre mades rather then being placed in the solo que.

 

4) Ranked Warzones, exactly as is now though Id honestly suggest a 1226 expertise minimum to enter as anyone under that is completely useless in Ranked and shouldn't be there.

[FourTwent]

the solution is a simple 4 point plan to create a level playing feild in PVP

 

Mitt Romney is that you?

[Technohic]

I wouldn't split up the queues any more. All I would do is:

 

disable the ability to equip during war zones

If people join regular as a group, the other players they get have the lowest total stats.

If going against a another queued group, highest total stats between the 2 groups gets the lowest stat solos

PUG vs PUG of entirely solo, teams would be divided by faction first obviously, then stat weighted if same faction.

[Dras_Keto]

I'd love to see Warzones bracketed similar to WoW's 1-10, 11-19, etc. system or based upon average ilvl of your gear. The problem? The playerbase is too small and this will never happen. Que times would be too long and people would complain about that instead.

 

I was reading along waiting for a post saying this.

 

That right there, thats the real problem. There are all sorts of great and obvious fixes that will NEVER work because there arent enough people playing the game.

 

And F2P wont fix it either. They only get 3 per week and the vast majority of them are going to do their first three in the 50 bracket and probably uninstall the game right then and there.

 

1) normal solo que but with 2 differences (1- can only que up 2 person groups. 3 and 4 person groups would be placed in the pre made que. 2- to enter and stay in normal wz you must never have more then 1225 expertise on your character. Ive you que up and then add wh gear pushing expertise over 1225 you are instantly removed from warzone and receive a 30 minute lock out penalty for trying to cheat system)

 

What about the people who equip only enough war hero to not push them over 1225 and then fill out the rest with campaign? Yeah. Wont work.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Dras_Keto

[Capt_Beers]

Fun and Balanced things that happened in lowbie PvP last night:

 

- NC, guard at west abandons west to go help cap east. We lose west. I watched this happen from the spawn. He ran to east and an Operative unstealthed and capped before I could get there.

 

- Next game in NC, we cap south and clear it. I look at my map everyone is going east, including the guard at west. Now mind you we have south and west but we needed east so bad the guard left.

 

- This is my personal favorite,playing Huttball and the enemy team has the ball. So a Commando respawns runs up the middle ramp and pew pews form the top. Guess what happened? Leap, push, leap, score. honestly who is still surprised when this happens to them?

 

- I'm almost positive that something like 40% of people in lowbie PvP have no idea they have a pass ability or take it off their bars completely. Or for some reason think that because 2 Commandos are green beaming them they are invincible. This isn't TF2, they aren't going to uber you.

 

- Enemy grabs ball from mid. Resolve is full immediately. Every time. With the changes to resolve I don't even know how they do it so fast.

 

- I swear to god some people think the fire hurts the ball too. Some people will never pass across the fire they wait for it to go down and then walk. I think we all know what happens then.

 

I have fun lowbie PvP but it's the NCAA when compared to 50 PvP's NFL. Sure there are some great games and all kinds of awesome thing happen, but that's because people are blowing coverage all over the place and you have first year freshman playing against seniors. My Vanguard just hit the 20's and he already has full set of the 40 PvP gear with expertise enhancements waiting (Yeah, I'm gonna be that guy. I'm not going to stay 49 forever I just have nothing else to spend the comms on). If you wanna call that fair by all means go ahead.

[Ewgal]

I think you have to bear in mind that pre-50 PvP isn't balanced, but that as a 40-49 PvPer you will for most classes have an advantage over the 10-20 players despite stat boosting. That happy time in PvP is not dependent on gear though again that can help. It only takes an afternoon to get a level 10 toon, so you can always head back there.

 

Level 50 PvP is a gear treadmill. You can start off with the recruit, then gear to the Battlemaster, then the War Hero, and finally get those weapons to Elite War hero and optimise the gear in a sexy shell. That is a lot of work now in terms of WZs for a new player and it can feel like hitting a wall at 50 where it is hard to get to War Hero gear. That is for the good, it shouldn't be easy to get the best PvP gear. It means that you will be killed in a few seconds solo by geared Marauders and Operatives. It does means geared players will drop from your warzone team as some don't like to play with recruit geared players.

 

Ranked warzones largely failed in PvP because it's a pain putting a team together and then sitting in a queue hoping enough will join for the WZ to spawn. The weaker teams get scared off anyway by the pro teams with players in the best gear. Solo ranked warzones would have helped as it would have increased the pool of players playing ranked warzones, but Bioware pulled this. A shame as ranked should really be for War Hero and Elite War Hero geared players and unranked for the guys getting to that gear.

 

So you are in a world of hurt where Maurauders will kill you in under 4 seconds and you will find it impossible to even scratch them. But, Bioware can likely improve this by giving back ranked solo.

[Joesixxpack]

The recurring theme ITT is teamwork, or lack thereof.

 

Recruit can't kill a WH? - Needs teamwork

Sage solo guarding node? - Teamwork fail

Etc.

 

Gear gap matters but is rarely the decider. The teams that win are the coordinated smart ones, and the cluster%$@^* lose. Gear won't replace or minimize that fact.

[Nodulo]

OP quote " I spend a lot of time and credits every level making sure my character's are geared as well as they can be or sometimes as well as I can afford to gear them. And the gear shows in pvp."

 

To be quite honest this is as similar to a gear gap at 50 with WH vs. Recruit and a few BM pieces as it gets.

 

I have 3 toons to 50 all leveled via PvP in the 10-49 bracket and let me say almost no one min/maxes gear at those levels and the difference is staggering in both damage output and health.

 

As everyone else said in a nutshell it sucks for a week and then you'll be competetive. Spend some extra coin on augmenting BM gear as you buy it and use iLvL49 purple quality augments. As you replace the BM gear you can mod rip them and reuse in your WH gear.

[SovereignConvict]

OP quote " I spend a lot of time and credits every level making sure my character's are geared as well as they can be or sometimes as well as I can afford to gear them. And the gear shows in pvp."

 

To be quite honest this is as similar to a gear gap at 50 with WH vs. Recruit and a few BM pieces as it gets...

 

The difference between my level 46 "randomly geared" Powertech Bounty Hunter versus a level 49 twinked Scoundrel who had 25 Expertise was the largest gear differential I've ever experienced in the game. No joke, he was able to two shot me.

 

"I press two buttons and you're dead." Yeah, really fun.

 

The only way to not have gear make a difference is to make gear completely meaningless. Then, everyone could just complain about the other differences between character classes. Give everyone the same character class with the same spec and the same gear, and you'll hear about people complain about lag or other latency issues.

 

At least with the "gear problem" players focus on something they believe they can control. Get gear and then you're fine. With the other problems, the solutions are either more difficult, more time consuming, or completely unsolvable because they only exist in the players' heads.

[CommanderKeeva]

but how is this any different then if they want to do endgame PVE. No one ever cries about the PVE gear grind. You cant hit 50 and say you know what I think I should be able to do NightMare flashpoints. No one will take you and you will be kicked if you try and use group finder. You start by grinding dailies for armor mods. then you do normal 50 flashpoints, then you start grinding some of the easier HM flashpoints. So why does everyone expect to be instantly allowed to be uber in endgame pvp.

 

The other way around, my friend. You can choose NOT to go into a nightmare mode operation but queue for a story mode as a fresh 50. Can you choose NOT to queue against a war hero premade team? I say this in pretty much every thread: people don't cry about the PvE grind that much because they take on a gear appropriate challenge, Is Recruit vs. War Hero an appropriate challenge?

 

Or let"s see what if the group finder had one setting for Operations. And if it was completely random what your opposition would be. It might be story, it might be nightmare, you might win or you might not even have a chance of winning. That sounds ridiculious, right? Then think about that there is equally no way in the current PvP system to queue for a gear appropriate challenge.

Edited October 18, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

[Veniras]

Or let"s see what if the group finder had one setting for Operations. And if it was completely random what your opposition would be. It might be story, it might be nightmare, you might win or you might not even have a chance of winning. That sounds ridiculious, right? Then think about that there is equally no way in the current PvP system to queue for a gear appropriate challenge.

 

Best use of an allegory in a long time. Respect!

[DanNV]

(snip)

Or let"s see what if the group finder had one setting for Operations. And if it was completely random what your opposition would be. It might be story, it might be nightmare, you might win or you might not even have a chance of winning. That sounds ridiculious, right? Then think about that there is equally no way in the current PvP system to queue for a gear appropriate challenge.

 

Very well said.

[SovereignConvict]

Fun and Balanced things that happened in lowbie PvP last night...

 

Lol! I totally agree with you. Very funny write up, btw.

 

And, I don't have a problem with someone if they want to be an uber twink in the below 50 bracket. Sure, all you want to do is have an unfair advantage and beat up on people forever, that probably says something about you that no put-down I could think up could even come close to matching. But until you get to 50, sure, why not.

 

I had fun trying to kill that one uber twink Scoundrel. Never did kill him though...