Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Vember]

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Where do I sign up?

 

Also, if you have a recommendation for the Steelers - Ravens game tonight I am all ears. I have a feeling B-more will come together despite all of this Ray Rice nonsense and cover the 2.5 at home. Thoughts?

 

Not a fan of the Steelers and I don't think they're all that good, to be honest. As for Baltimore, Pierce didn't do well last week covering for Ray Rice, and last I heard they weren't sure if he would start or Justin Forsett...either way i'm predicting the Ravens to win.

 

My team is pure crap this year. Again.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Vember

[Anyakaschala]

So what you want is better matchmaking?

 

Random is random though. If, for instance you remove groups of 4 from the the unranked queue you are leaving yourself at the hands of rng. This won't make the game fairer you would effectively make grouping up with one friend, casual or pvp groups obsolete in unranked pop. I don't see that as particularly healthy for the game at all.

 

Half a pre is beneficial to the team of pugs they get put with if it has a balanced comp, so there is a big clue to people that complain about premades ruining their experience. Shock/horror teaming up with people - be it another player or several is a good idea in this game. So I would say to those people do it then. But don't complain about other people if you insist on leaving yourselves to the mercy of random matchmaking. That is just so stupid.

 

The whole game content encourages people to group - it's an mmo. You are meant to do this, 4 man premades are helpful to pugs as much as they can face roll the opposition. It puts matchmaking in the hands of the players if more people actually chose to do it instead of ************ about it on the forums. Regs serve as a casual playground with no penalty for leaving and rejoining. There is no issue, if people can't win a single warzone they are simply awful and there is no amount of queue adjustment bioware can make to make **** people better at the game. That is down to the player and the choices they make.

 

If people refuse to use the same tools and options EVERYONE in the game can use what can you say to that? That is their choice. These threads are just ridiculous and nothing will ever change simply because they are so redundant and silly.

 

as a sports guy, and one that frequents open gyms, there have been similar issues at different gyms. In one gym, it's a king of the court, winner stays, loser moves down, for about 6 courts. Another gym likes to count off, stand in a line. Basically, grouping vs random luck of the draw competition.

 

The issues that come up and arguments for grouping 1) people do want to play with friends and teammates 2) people DO want to win 3) people want to play in a style that's most comfortable for their playstyle 4) since it's a game, it's a ocmpetition, and people who want their game to be competitive, want to play at the highest level where they do compete.

 

in the count off system 1) people want more balanced teams 2) they don't want anyone to dominate 3) are uncomfortable with their own skill level or are afraid they aren't good enough to be picked for the better teams

 

The fallacy is with a count off or random system is that it doesn't really favor anyone or balanced teams. With a random draw system, who usually wins? the ones with the most healers. It seems common in 8's that one team has 3 healers, and the other team has none. thus, how is that fair? No different than a count of system in basketball and you get 5 centers on one team, and the other team gets 3 point guards, Think of it like your centers are your tanks, shooters, forwards are your melee close range, and your guard as your ranged, and the point guard as the healer. I know not quite accurate, but it's as close as I can come up with.

 

It just doesn't work with a random draw.

 

my point is that objective based pvp is a group activity. It's about teamwork, communication, and coordination to play at a decent level. Sure, you can play in random, but the quality of the game play will go down due to lack of consistency of team and the roles of said teams. 8 healers vs 8 tanks would suck, but it is a possibility in a random draw. And you have to ask, how does that actually benefit anyone?

[Anyakaschala]

What? I mean... props for your ability to spin a negative experiance into a positive... but that's simply not how it works. The net effect is people simply stop queuing up entirely, telling them to suck it up and learn not to suck isn't going to accomplish anything or convince them that they were having fun, getting teabagged those last 10-15 minutes.

 

That said, great spin..

 

the 2ndary spin though, is the reverse, you have a premade on your side. You see how things work, how coordinated they are, and you actually learn from it. You see how they move and react to situations and you get better.

 

Thus, the net effect on that side is positive.

 

Granted, I'm not in favor of an over-powered premade basically spawn camping and demeaning the other team, but you can't use the negative of going against the premade without reversing it because you are just as often on the side with a premade as against it.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Anyakaschala

[Anyakaschala]

But there are several four-man premade teams on the imp side on the bastion that play regular warzones for several hours a day and basically shred everyone they come up against without much effort. Are you saying that they are queueing for regular warzones because they want really easy matches, and that they wouldn't do 8 vs 8 ranked even if it were an option?

 

you know this for a fact? Or do you just see a guild tag? Are they all in 162's, or are their different toons, maybe alts switching in and out of the matches to they have 4+ alts to do their weeklies? Or rotating in other guildies in the process. Or is it jsut that it's a pvp guild so that whoever is on, they group and queue?

 

My guess is that you see a guild tag and you assume it's the same group. Pvp guilds pvp, that's what they made a guild for, that's what they like to do. e

 

I would also add that, even if it's the same people and the same toons, doesn't mean they don't have the right to queue for regs to finish their dailies and weeklies as well. They should also have the ability to get together and in a sense practice their craft. Just jumping into ranked, if there is even a queue for ranked, can be bad for your ranking.

[Anyakaschala]

Player have already learned to play the game by the time they hit level 55 PVP, they've done the same matches for the first 54 levels they have played nothing changes mechanic wise. Now though they are facing fully gear players (another flaw, gear has NO place in PVP, it should be skill only) running premades designed to farm easy wins(for conquest points, a huge flaw.. they should be part of ranked only). Hitting a wall does not teach them anything, it just causes them to not bother.

 

Edit: You are missing the point. You can have fun while winning or losing, they are not mutually exclusive. I am not advocating everyone needs to win. But getting steam rolled match after match, without respite burns people out. They AFK or just quit entirely, this has a negative impact on every subsequent game... why do you think we have so few players queuing up despite upwards of a million(Musco quote) logging in per month?

 

Completely false. Many players have not learned to pvp by the time they reached 55. You make a massive assumption that is just not true. I can positively say that, because I know I didn't. With my 1st toon, I was completely story focused. I never touched pvp until I hit 55. I had to learn the wz's on the fly.

 

I will agree that gear is an issue, but that's a topic for another host of threads.

 

If anything, conquest has brought in tons more people that have never pvp'ed before. That are doing it for 2 reasons, the conquest points for their guild and for the comms for decorations.

[Anyakaschala]

Yes, I'd like better matchmaking, though I would settle for *any* matchmaking. And possibly also integrated voice chat. I played DDO for a long time and the VC there worked just fine to coordinate perfect strangers. Bio, Y U NO MAKE VC?!

 

With better matchmaking I'd be more inclined to respec heal/tank in some of my characters and queue up, much like I do for PVE content. As it stands, I don't really see the point because the composition is completely out of my hands and queue times are exactly the same. No guarantees that having heal/tank preferred (not necessarily reserved) slots would result in balanced comps but it would do away with stupid **** like 4 healers on one side and none on the other in same faction matches.

 

One step at a time...

 

However, even if they got rid of the ability queue as a group, and everything was done by the perceived skillz, gear level, that also negates a large number of people that jsut want to queue as a guild or friends. Add that, even if they, for example, queue synced to try, if it was done by a ranking system, you would then have to have every member of the group be basically the same ranked. And, as an example, with a group of 3, and 2 are skilled and one is a nub, and they want to teach that person and help them out, they'd never get grouped together because of the imbedded ranking difference.

 

There has to be a place for this. That is another reason that taking away grouped regs is bad.k it's a great place of guilds to bring people in and a help people along, esp new guildies or those new to the game that want to learn.

[Volxen]

you know this for a fact? Or do you just see a guild tag? Are they all in 162's, or are their different toons, maybe alts switching in and out of the matches to they have 4+ alts to do their weeklies? Or rotating in other guildies in the process. Or is it jsut that it's a pvp guild so that whoever is on, they group and queue?

 

My guess is that you see a guild tag and you assume it's the same group. Pvp guilds pvp, that's what they made a guild for, that's what they like to do. e

 

I would also add that, even if it's the same people and the same toons, doesn't mean they don't have the right to queue for regs to finish their dailies and weeklies as well. They should also have the ability to get together and in a sense practice their craft. Just jumping into ranked, if there is even a queue for ranked, can be bad for your ranking.

 

Yes, I know this for a fact. They are all in the same guild, and it's a couple of specific guilds on the imp side on the Bastion that do this (the guild "Cherry Pops" is one of the primary ones). When I say four-man premade, I am not just referring to average skilled players grouping together. The premades (I am talking about specific four-man premade groups here, not premades in general) I am talking about obliterate everyone they come up against, especially when they are fighting players on the pub side. The DPS people in the group will routinely have scores like 900k or one million DPS, and 50-60+ kills and 0 deaths. This is on top of scores like 6-0 in Huttball or 100-0 in Novare Coast. It's a complete and absolute roflstomp, and they do it every day for many hours on end.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Volxen

[Anyakaschala]

No pug can take on voice coordinated groups with perfect team composition, its an advantage that pugs don't have. Hence why these types of groups should be in ranked against other voice coordinated groups with perfect team composition. Which is where you should be unless you're afraid of losing. Pugs aren't perfect, which is why pugs should be playing against other pugs. Premades should be playing against other premades. Premades farming pug queues are carebears, plain and simple, and requires no skill whatsoever. Like I said before, premadeing in pug queues is a crutch for bads.

 

another simple fact, not all pre-mades are equal. Hell, not all pre-made use voice chat. Not all pre-mades are perfect group composition either. Hell, some pre-mades are trying to find a group composition that works for them, or maybe they are 3 people that want to do ranked, but are looking for a 4th, thus queueing for ranked with a trial run 4th is just not a good idea.

 

And while I agree that good pre-mades need to go to ranked more regularly, that also requires that every good premade is onboard for that and regularly queues for it as well. Queues that are ghost towns aren't good for anyone. And good pre-mades that wait say half an hour for a queue are probably just going to up and leave the queue and do regs.

 

What they need to do is, if they do group for regs, don't roflstomp, don't spawn camp, don't troll, make fun, taunt, and generally make asses out of themselves. They should help their teammates get better if they see that they need it. By doing so, they can improve the pvp on their server, improve the pvp population, and get overall a better experience down the road as other people get better.

[Anyakaschala]

Yes, I know this for a fact. They are all in the same guild, and it's a couple of specific guilds on the imp side on the Bastion that do this (the guild "Cherry Pops" is one of the primary ones). When I say four-man premade, I am not just referring to average skilled players grouping together. The premades (I am talking about specific four-man premade groups here, not premades in general) I am talking about obliterate everyone they come up against, especially when they are fighting players on the pub side. The DPS people in the group will routinely have scores like 900k or one million DPS, and 50-60+ kills and 0 deaths. This is on top of scores like 6-0 in Huttball or 100-0 in Novare Coast. It's a complete and absolute roflstomp, and they do it every day for many hours on end.

 

so a pvp guild. Not really sure what else to say. Just seeing a guild tag on a toon doesn't mean it's the same toon. Pvp guilds are formed to......pvp. Probably a lot of what you are seeing though is different people grouping at different times, on mains, alts, etc... to get their dailies and weeklies done. And yeah, they might be better than you, and they may roflstomp you. It happens.

 

Hell, I've been roflstomped by what I think is a complete pug when I've been in a pre-made. I've roflstomped a premade as well.

 

What I hope happens, though, is that they aren't being complete ******s and spawn camping making asses out of themselves like a lot of pvp guilds do. I think that is counterproductive to the game and team based pvp.

[MisterPepssi]

How do people dig up these ancient threads..

[Anyakaschala]

How do people dig up these ancient threads..

 

This actually wasn't that old of a thread, someone from BW merged it with an older one.

[Raazmir]

I dont think this thread has fallen further than 2nd page since its inception.

[Volxen]

so a pvp guild. Not really sure what else to say. Just seeing a guild tag on a toon doesn't mean it's the same toon. Pvp guilds are formed to......pvp. Probably a lot of what you are seeing though is different people grouping at different times, on mains, alts, etc... to get their dailies and weeklies done. And yeah, they might be better than you, and they may roflstomp you. It happens.

 

Hell, I've been roflstomped by what I think is a complete pug when I've been in a pre-made. I've roflstomped a premade as well.

 

What I hope happens, though, is that they aren't being complete ******s and spawn camping making asses out of themselves like a lot of pvp guilds do. I think that is counterproductive to the game and team based pvp.

 

Yes, it's true that premades in and of themselves are not the issue, and never have been. It's the extreme variance of the skill levels of players, even at level 55. Some players are exceptional, some are great, some are good, some are average, some are below average, and some are really below average. The skill level of players is all over the place in this game. The problem is that sixteen players are just thrown together to form an 8 vs 8 match, so in some cases it's like pitting a team of people who are in bronze league in StarCraft II against a team of people who are grandmasters.

 

The skill cap in this game is no where near the skill cap of a game like StarCraft II, but this game could definitely benefit from players having a MMR and implementing a matchmaking system. But with the game in its current state, I think two things would have to happen for the player pool to be big enough for a matchmaking system: 1) mixed teams of imps and pubs in PVP would have to be allowed and 2) cross-server queues would need to be implemented. If Bioware implemented those two changes and then developed a MMR-based matchmaking system, regular warzones would become much more enjoyable for average skilled players (whether they queue solo or with a group).

[Raansu]

I dont think this thread has fallen further than 2nd page since its inception.

 

It dies after about a few days and lands pretty far back on the list for months, then randomly pops up because some pug probably lost to a premade so he gets pissy searches the forums and finds the thread, or makes a new one that eventually gets merged into this one.

[DariusCalera]

But with the game in its current state, I think two things would have to happen for the player pool to be big enough for a matchmaking system: 1) mixed teams of imps and pubs in PVP would have to be allowed and 2) cross-server queues would need to be implemented. If Bioware implemented those two changes and then developed a MMR-based matchmaking system, regular warzones would become much more enjoyable for average skilled players (whether they queue solo or with a group).

 

Mixing the teams (i.e. imps and pubs on the same side) has a very high chance of driving players away as well. Aside from the two Huttball maps and areans, all of the WZs are about the fight between the Republic and the Empire. The conflict, and the story behind it, is indeed what keeps some people playing. Take it away and you will see people leave because it, to them, is no longer Star Wars.

 

As for cross server, that would be awesome but BW has already stated, numerous times, that it isn't going to happen.

[maverickmatt]

..........

 

This thread is still going on.....

 

 

Ray Rice, can you punch me? But this time, lean into it like Street Fighter or Rocky... leave no doubt that you went for the Tyson KO and weren't simply reacting to someone who was swinging and lunging at you. Thanks.

[foxmob]

..........

 

This thread is still going on.....

 

 

Ray Rice, can you punch me? But this time, lean into it like Street Fighter or Rocky... leave no doubt that you went for the Tyson KO and weren't simply reacting to someone who was swinging and lunging at you. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure they merged a much more recent thread into it, cuz I definitely didn't post to it, but I see discussions I was in only yesterday. I'm kind of impressed. with such a destitute staff, I would have thought a lock or a delete was all any mod would be willing to devote to any thread on this board.

[Glower]

Just bring in matchmaking 2 heals per pug. Easy.

 

Healing is now too powerful in swtor to not have some matchmaking system.

 

^this this this

 

2 healers! At least one per pug. But why bother right? Players can win with 4 tanks 4 dps for sure...

[Glower]

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775 pages... 775!!!!! And 0 posts from Bioware.

[Volxen]

Mixing the teams (i.e. imps and pubs on the same side) has a very high chance of driving players away as well. Aside from the two Huttball maps and areans, all of the WZs are about the fight between the Republic and the Empire. The conflict, and the story behind it, is indeed what keeps some people playing. Take it away and you will see people leave because it, to them, is no longer Star Wars.

 

As for cross server, that would be awesome but BW has already stated, numerous times, that it isn't going to happen.

 

Would that really cause people to leave? On the Bastion, the empire side has a much larger PVP population than the republic side. Players on the empire side have imp vs imp matches very frequently, and even pub vs pub matches happen as well sometimes, so it's not like this game is exclusively imp vs pub. If nothing else, they could do what DCUO did and make it optional: when you queue for warzones, you can choose to allow yourself to be placed in a team that is mixed with both imps and pubs. Players that don't like the idea of being on the same team with players of the opposing faction could choose to opt out of this.

[DariusCalera]

Would that really cause people to leave? On the Bastion, the empire side has a much larger PVP population than the republic side. Players on the empire side have imp vs imp matches very frequently, and even pub vs pub matches happen as well sometimes, so it's not like this game is exclusively imp vs pub. If nothing else, they could do what DCUO did and make it optional: when you queue for warzones, you can choose to allow yourself to be placed in a team that is mixed with both imps and pubs. Players that don't like the idea of being on the same team with players of the opposing faction could choose to opt out of this.

 

You'd be surprised how finicky players can be when it comes to faction coherence. Especially when it comes to something like Star Wars.

[Jimmajamma]

Not a fan of the Steelers and I don't think they're all that good, to be honest. As for Baltimore, Pierce didn't do well last week covering for Ray Rice, and last I heard they weren't sure if he would start or Justin Forsett...either way i'm predicting the Ravens to win.

 

My team is pure crap this year. Again.

 

Damn Vember. You must be some kind of prophet. Hopefully you bet B-more as hard as I did.

 

What do you think about this WNBA finals game tonight? Phoenix has looked really strong at home, but Chicago is coming home now and I feel like Fowles could go off. I still think I like the Mercs giving 6.5 on the road. Thoughts?

Edited September 12, 2014 by Jimmajamma

[t-darko]

can't help it . . .

 

especially now during conquest, when we have a big surge of beginners - I sometimes feel like a big premade on my lonesome - with just 1 - 2 listening to the tactics ...

[Jadescythe]

Yes, I know this for a fact. They are all in the same guild, and it's a couple of specific guilds on the imp side on the Bastion that do this (the guild "Cherry Pops" is one of the primary ones). When I say four-man premade, I am not just referring to average skilled players grouping together. The premades (I am talking about specific four-man premade groups here, not premades in general) I am talking about obliterate everyone they come up against, especially when they are fighting players on the pub side. The DPS people in the group will routinely have scores like 900k or one million DPS, and 50-60+ kills and 0 deaths. This is on top of scores like 6-0 in Huttball or 100-0 in Novare Coast. It's a complete and absolute roflstomp, and they do it every day for many hours on end.

 

900k-1 mill in a full warzone isn't really that big of a deal for the top players...

[Anyakaschala]

Yes, it's true that premades in and of themselves are not the issue, and never have been. It's the extreme variance of the skill levels of players, even at level 55. Some players are exceptional, some are great, some are good, some are average, some are below average, and some are really below average. The skill level of players is all over the place in this game. The problem is that sixteen players are just thrown together to form an 8 vs 8 match, so in some cases it's like pitting a team of people who are in bronze league in StarCraft II against a team of people who are grandmasters.

 

The skill cap in this game is no where near the skill cap of a game like StarCraft II, but this game could definitely benefit from players having a MMR and implementing a matchmaking system. But with the game in its current state, I think two things would have to happen for the player pool to be big enough for a matchmaking system: 1) mixed teams of imps and pubs in PVP would have to be allowed and 2) cross-server queues would need to be implemented. If Bioware implemented those two changes and then developed a MMR-based matchmaking system, regular warzones would become much more enjoyable for average skilled players (whether they queue solo or with a group).

 

 

and therein lies the challenge. while it does no good to pit a team of NBA all-stars against a high school team. But there are things that can be done, since this game allows it. 1) the good players don't need to go all Ray Rice on the other team. (too soon?) They can practice good sportsmanship. 2) they don't have to dominate or destroy or spawn camp, etc... They can practice good tactics, maybe even make a suggestion or 2 to the other team in /say. It might help improve play and pvp population. 3) they don't need to taunt, belittle, or tell people to never pvp again, etc... it's just counterproductive to what the game needs, and realistically what good players want. Basically what I mean by this, if the pvp population wants more stuff, more wz's, more trophies, more decorations, more end of season rewards, then the pvp population needs to merit it, or show some big growth. And that's not going to happen if the best players turn a lot of the casuals away.

 

Granted, the reverse of it is also true. the new players need to learn. If they think they might want to pvp more and actually be productive, then they need to learn about their class, their abilities, how to use cooldowns, learn the advanced strategies of each wz, etc...

 

One suggestion I've always made is that we need invite only wz's. Thus a place where you can get really good matches, huttball leagues, etc... I would further suggest that if you open those matches up to say matches without time limits, meaning no clock, someone with some good ingenuity could sell some personal game time to a group of newer pvpers that want to learn strategies and teach pvp. It would also encourage a team of ranked level players to go in and practice against another team without consequence of rank loss. Just good practice time learning how to use your abilities in different situations.

 

For example, in a another thread someone asked about how a merc survives in ranked. It could really help a merc to get into consequence free death match against peple that gang up on him and learn the tools necessary to survive, without going 0-10 and basically giving themselves no chance of ever getting a good rank.