Stun on sorc bubble break must be changed

[Leafy_Bug]

Ok then. I also run an Assassin named Tyrellicus and am smart enuff to pop force shroud when i know the bubble is going down (aka, Maul Procs) then proceed to stun so he has to run or die (usually they die). Restealth if he gets help or casts something on me i don't like. Sorcs are still nothing to be worry about. What you got to say now?

 

And as far as my statement being pointless, why don't you tell a RANGED class to stay on the Sorc so his bubbles are popped before melee goes in? A little communication can go a long way buddy.

 

 

 

You are yet again oversimplifying things. I play a shadow, 31 0 10, spec and when the regular sorcs show up on the imp side, the whole match becomes a stun fest. Everywhere you move to attack you are stunned because the bubble breaks. Today's Novare coast, i held my head most of the time. 3 sorcs, using this spec, becoming invincible. There was a poster while back talking about marauders saying that if the team-mates know what to do you have no chance. I whole heartedly agree because in two bubble stuns or 1 bubble stun and aoe root through resilience I am long dead. I see sorcs on purpose force speeding in groups of people and using overload. While this is smart play and I congratulate them for tanking us, the bubble mechanic needs to be addressed.

 

 

I guess I have to start streaming again to show how PVP has become for us melee people. Maybe that will help in addressing this issue because at the moment the stunfest is unbearable.

 

 

 

PS: Good idea with the ranged guy. I will tell him to focus on bursting all the bubbles so we can actually hit someone Oh wait, the bubbles will be back ... scratch that idea

 

 

PPS: I just finished a wz with my sentinel and for the first time in months I played focus spec. Never used it since the buff and I have to say, fully buffed smash, cloak, wait for the sorc bubble to burst, bang 6k smash. I am rooted,sorc panics, runs away and heals himself, i giggle and dont care if I die. Somehow the satisfaction of hitting these pesky sorcs for 6k overcomes the bubble issue

Edited October 22, 2012 by Leafy_Bug

[BobaStyx]

Ok then. I also run an Assassin named Tyrellicus and am smart enuff to pop force shroud when i know the bubble is going down (aka, Maul Procs) then proceed to stun so he has to run or die (usually they die). Restealth if he gets help or casts something on me i don't like. Sorcs are still nothing to be worry about. What you got to say now?

 

And as far as my statement being pointless, why don't you tell a RANGED class to stay on the Sorc so his bubbles are popped before melee goes in? A little communication can go a long way buddy.

 

So far for 1 person you've used your 1 min cd for a 3 sec immunity unless tank then 5 sec, force cloak which is 2 minutes, 1 1/2 if middle tree, and you've still yet to deal with the other 7 people on his team that have bubbles. Bravo, your strongest cd's are now popped and you can't do it again for at the very least 1 minute. They have 17 secs inbetween their bubbles, overload which will root you for 5 secs, speed that can't be slowed/rooted, and not to mention they still have their own hard stun. Have fun chasing them around for minutes on end trying to kill one person while they stun/kite you to death.

 

And for point two, hey ranged person, burst all 7 of those bubbles before melee engage... yeah, practical. You've still yet to prove anybody wrong except that indeed, in order to even have a SLIGHT chance every single possible cd to kill them must be popped if you are within 10 meters of them. No other AC can even come close to saying that just because of CC alone.

Edited October 22, 2012 by BobaStyx

[Paulman]

I feel really bad for those sents and shadows. They are in such a rough place right now. Maybe if they gave them more dps like Mercs have. They should also give them invicibilty too.

[Yeochins]

I go to work. I come back, this thread is 3 pages longer with some baddie information floating about.

 

You are clearly defending a spec that EVERY SINGLE Sage/Sorc I know says is broken and not functioning as intended. SWTOR class designs have a general prototype, this was never what the developers intended and it is almost like an exploit, not quite but close. I have had absolutely mediocre Sorc healers from my guild become the absolute best in WZs over night. They single handidly decide if a WZ is won or lost. That is a broken mechanic. Every player I know, elite level or not, wholeheartily agree that this is not functioning as intended, is broken, and will be nerfed..

 

Clearly you have pretty bad people on your server. Nobody including sorcerers and sages are saying this except baddies. The only legitamite critique about this being broken is the resolve values don't reflect it being a stun. But of course none of you guys complain when whirlwind white-bars people.

 

Learn to play.

 

 

You keep telling people that they're not playing their Carnage Marauders right, or other silly **** like breaking that bubble from range. As a melee class? Really? You want a melee class who does almost all of their damage within 4m exclusively to kill you at range while you have a 20second force speed with root immunity? Dude, stop defending a clearly broken mechanic. I guarantee that if not for hybrid, you wouldn't be as baddass of a healer.

 

Yes I am. The sooner you failures accept this the sooner you'll become better PvPer's. Marauders who know how to play their class knows they have to be 10 meters away when they pop a backlash bubble. If you refuse to accept this fact which hasn't changed from the inception of this game, then you will be forever terrible, bad, and a non-factor.

 

Carnage marauders do this best with a root on their deadly throw. Most of the baddies just want to get up in peoples faces completely oblivious to counters they may have. I face marauders all the time on all my other classes. I beat 8 out of 10 marauders on any class I play. I beat them because I know the suddle differences between someone who is competent at all 3 pillars of PvP and one who only knows one:

 

1. Mechanics
   
2. Strategy
   
3. Situational Awareness
   

 

Learn to play.

 

 

Hybrid Sorcs/Sages are different because the resolve generation of the bubble is nil. The healer classes were never intended to be CC wizards, but in fact healers. Now I have guys in my guild who don't even worry about healing, they just try to bubble the entire area and cause as much stunlock as possible. Ugh, this is why we have endless threads QQing about CCs, not so much because of the resolve changes.

 

It's been this way ever since the inception of the game. It was a mez before. If nobody touched you it lasted forever. The baddies would break your mez by touching you. The people who were decent left you alone to mez.

 

 

Instead of telling people to learn to play Carnage right, how about you roll a non-hybrid broken healer. Oh wait, you can't because if you did all of a sudden you probably would start dying more and your teammates wouldn't be bubble stunning everyone.

 

I have all 8 AC's. 6 of them full war-hero, 4 of them near optimized. The last two being battlemaster. The last two so happen to be a sniper and a Mecenary. And before you claim that its not really possible, I'll tell you that I've inherited accounts from players who have quit. 4 of 6 AC's I didn't even have to gear up.

 

I've played nearly all the specializations. I've done this so I know the counters to each and every class I face in warzones. You are facing a learn to play issue.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Yeochins

[Ycoga]

In my opinion, preventing someone from interrupting a cap or killing the ball carrier with well-timed CC is good gameplay. Or getting out of pressure via a stun is also good gameplay. Opening with a stun then doing 10k burst in 4 seconds while the opponent is incapacitated is just frustration. It's utterly broken and ridiculous when people in a 3v1 situation feel the need to stun you in advance...

 

And the Sorc bubble mechanism now adds an extra, freely abusable layer on it.

The top part of your post could apply equally to any classes' AOE stun (e.g. the Jugg) and is a complaint against stunning itself, not the sorc bubbles.

 

The latter part of your post correctly sets your opinion forth about bubble-stuns. However you are wrong; because it is not 'freely abusable', the sorc would have to spec the bubble so that the stun doesn't break on damage, and this is a tier4 ability in the dps tree.

[Ycoga]

I assume most of the people posting here aren't running this hybrid build. I used it pre-1.4 for pugging becaues of the root on the KB and added DPS so that i could survive without a coordinated team and stopped running out of force. It severely hinders overall healing in an effort to have more utility through CC and be able to do some DPS as well. But you are not going to be putting up the healing numbers of a pure healing sorc/sage, so it is not going to be ideal for rated teams and will never be used outside of regular warzones. It's a 1v1 and utility build, nothing more.

This is incorrect. I regularly top the healing numbers with my hybrid build, and still do over 100k damage in addition (usually the combined total of healing and dps comes to a little over 500k per match, when it goes well). Ops and scoundrels can pvp heal for 900k; I've never done that and am not interested in doing so because experience has shown me that my uitlity build saves more lives and secures more objectives than spamming healing does (depending on the WZ of course; and in general). Besides, I can't produce 900k healing. Possibly cos I went alacrity.

As to it being 1v1; yes it is a good duelling build (still tough to beat a shadow though). When I'm paired with a good tank the two of us can beat off 4 or 5 enemies at a time.

 

I can be a cornerstone in my pvp teams; and the build is certianly viable in WZ's, imho.

 

This doesn't all mean that the bubble-stun is overpowered; it means that the hybrid build can be effective when paired with a tank...

Edited October 23, 2012 by Ycoga

[Ycoga]

Okay? The moment you get a good Madness/Balance spec Sorc/Assassin on you, you're still gonna die. The dynamic is shifting to medium to long range classes because of this and so new FOTM is in the works. I guess this is what makes SWTOR dynamic.

 

Nonsense; provide proof of this 'changing dynamic' if its there.

 

As for tankassins, they're the most dangerous 1v1 class and always have been. No FOTM there... your argument is invalid.

[Ycoga]

I don't think resolve is broken, I think this hybrid spec is broken.

Make your mind up, hypocrite.

[PloGreen]

@PloGreen

No they really aren't terrible. Full balance Sorcs/Sages can absolutely destroy WZs, by using roots and focus firing from Range. I've seen some amazing Sorcs who spec madness and it isn't even that hard to play. You spam force lightning until you proc Raze, then you spam force lightning some more. And in the under 50s as a Madness spec I do top DPS. Yeah you might not out-dps a smash/forcesweep spammer, but so what, that isn't the point. You can be more effective if you focus priority targets.

 

Hybrid spec is NOT all you have. You just happen to be everyone's priority target number 1, along with all the other healers. If you roll a healer then you're priority target number 1. I'm priority target number 1, because everyone on my server seems to know me and think that it's a good idea to kill me before all the healers combined (fact!). Which sucks, but that's what happens when you're either good or are fundamental supporting role.

 

The class didn't get nerfed to the ground. There was a bug that allowed for double proc healing that was adjusted. I was there when you had teams of 3-4 healers that would also be dpsing and wouldn't die. When you could take 4-6 healers with you and guarantee a Voidstar domination. Where you were proc'ing a bug over and over and over again, regardless of it being a bug.

 

Hybrid bubble is NOT all that you have left, it is just something that caught on and it will be altered. Whether by giving full resolve and working as a stun instead of a mez, the change is coming and we all know it.

 

Just because a mechanic has been with the game from the start doesn't mean that it won't be changed, keep telling yourself that if it makes you sleep better at night. Predation was with Annihilation spec from the start, it got moved. There's plenty that can be changed/altered that has been with the game 'from the start'.

 

Give you something else? Okay I'll bite. How about an endurance buff. That would be fair and it'll function very well in giving you extra survivability. Oh and you did get that self-heal correct? The one when fully spec'd into healing can be like what, 6-8k? Instantly huh? Oh and the speed boost that is now every 20sec? Oh and what about root immunity associated with that speed boost?

 

I would love to have to go above and beyond to kill a Sage/Sorc, but that doesn't mean waiting in stunlock while the Sage/Sorc speeds away, ignoring all roots, LOSes you and when you get to him he has another bubble on him.

 

 

 

 

.

 

Well all I can say is you are trying to tell someone who plays a sage in bis gear and has alot of experience in rateds how to play balance/madness (your not even close to how to play it effectively btw, its effectiveness comes from dots and 10 ticks of fob not just proccing mindcrush, and spamming tele throw) because you have a lower level sorc and can top the dps charts. Forgive me in saying this but you have a very limited perspective, sages are at 50 end game are a different ball game completley. You are confusing healing specced sages with dps ones for starters. Dps sages do not get immunity from roots, that is called egress and sits high up in the healing tree.. Similarly hybrid sages do not get a benefit from a 20 second force speed, because they already had this pre 1.4, which is one of the main reasons you didnt spec balance/madness and you went hybrid..

 

I have played since early access, I have seen what has become of this class dps wise. Dps is what im discussing here not heals, I think the changes to heals are mostly positive. Prior to 1.4 sages were speccing dps hybrid balance/tele for a number of reasons:-

 

Balance/tele hybrid (typical)

 

Pros

 

-better survivability - bubble mezz

- Support for team mates in with shielding, stronger shield supported by the next point.

- Increased force resources

-root on an aoe knockback

-reduced cooldown on forcespeed

- Some sages would forgo a little crit in the healing tree for a proc on telewave from disturbance but this is situational and not always the case

 

Cons

 

Lower dps output overall, loss of criticals on periodic damage, loss of single target root.

 

Balance/madness - was the weaker spec (though it had higher dps output) comparted to hybrid.

 

Pros

 

Better damage from dots, and stronger criticals from fob

A decent single target root

Instant lift, though most hybrids specced for this anyway.

Decent damage mitigation from periodic damage ( I would spec this over project), project is too costly on force resources.

 

Cons

 

-Crap survivability - easily focused/shutdown

- terrible force resource issues i.e you run out quickly

-30 seconds on force speed

 

The changes made to sages and how they directly affect the dps specs are as follows:-

 

We lost 180 degrees on a knockback though it is now instant (very buggy thought i gather alot of classes have bug issues) and has a little range and frontal cone(better tool in one sense, loss of survival on the other), reduced to 10m our range on hard stun, gained a self instant heal which is useful but not 6-8k in dps spec, never have i seen those numbers, more like 2-4k in bis gear. Bubble mezz is no longer a mezz, its a stun, but then we have lost 180 degrees of protection from the knockback and we need some way of dealing with melee focus trains, which we are often a target of. Balance also gets 10 seconds knocked off of force speed, which was needed.

 

So how does that play out for Sages dps/wise?

 

Hybrid/balance/tele

 

Bubble mezz is now a stun - better change for survivability, though the fact it can be appliled on other classes has called for a nerf which will hit the sage survivability hard if it does happen.

Knockback is still talented to root though its changed into a 180 cone (no rear protection as such but cant really call it a flat out nerf since it can be used in positive ways to create distance with slight range, thought it does compound the issue with lack of range on the hard stun)

20 seconds force speed no longer needs to be specced into but its irrelevant because it shared that with better force resources

Still has better force resources than full balance

Bubbling team mates is not a prob because of decent force resources

now has an instant self heal, for moderate amount (the closest we get to a defensive cooldown, but its a heal)

reduced range on hard stun (nerf)

 

Balance

 

10 second reduction on force speed was a much needed change (buff).

Force resources still poor.

Better dps output than hybriid on dots, though you soon run out of force.

Still collapses under focus fire more quickly than hybrid.

Shielding team mates a waste of force resources

Lack of range on hard stun (nerf).

Single target root - a big plus for the spec.

Self-heal - useful for regaining a little force when needd as well as a top up when needed

 

Full tele?

 

Im not even going there, suffice to say its absolute garbarge for pvp and can be shutdown easily imo, its just a great big beacon that screams nuke me. It lacks any meaningful tools to kite, and hybrid trumps it because you can dip in both trees and get decent utility that it offers and procs from balance but there is a lack of overall dps. Still you will live longer in hybrid than in tele, any day of the week. .

 

Conclusion

 

I've played rateds as a dps sage, since their inception, I have watched this class be hit with the nerf bat while other classes are gifted strong defences, powerful burst, utility and seemingly left alone or further buffed. I see no reason why balance is a more beneficial spec since the recent changes to sage than hybrid in that environment. I still see no reason to bring a balance sage or even a hybrid dps sage when you can just stack fotm comps and players that can bring better utility and burst to the team because they scale better with bis gear, and have better defensive cooldowns. Dps still needs work on sage/sorc - and the loss of bubble stun will not help us, it will hinder us and give those fotm classes their free kills once more, and I feel most of the qq about bubble stun stems from this.

 

Dps sages are one of the weaker ac's, a loss of bubble stun or moving it up higher in the tele tree will make it even weaker. Therefore if we lose it, then we need something in return, either a buff to dps, a hard defensive cooldown, a single bursty proc (aoe or single target damage) that is decent, an in combat force regen skill such as evocate (wow mages) on a long cooldown, a drain energy/force mechanic, or force deflect skill that pushes back missiles sabers back at their attackers. Any one of those skills would be useful for us. The only alternative you would not like if we take another hit to survivabilty - maras, jugs, shadows, pts need to be be hit with the nerf bat like we were. Its that simple, so be careful what you ask for - you might not like what you get instead.

Edited October 23, 2012 by PloGreen

[Siorac]

The top part of your post could apply equally to any classes' AOE stun (e.g. the Jugg) and is a complaint against stunning itself, not the sorc bubbles.

 

The latter part of your post correctly sets your opinion forth about bubble-stuns. However you are wrong; because it is not 'freely abusable', the sorc would have to spec the bubble so that the stun doesn't break on damage, and this is a tier4 ability in the dps tree.

 

Umm, the two most powerful AoE CCs (Flashbang/Flash Grenade and Awe/Intimidating Roar) both break on damage so no, my complaint against opening a burst phase with a stun doesn't apply to them.

 

Yes, I know you have to spec into the bubble. What's your point? Rage Juggernauts have to spec 31 points into the Rage tree to get the overpowered Smashes, doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

[Ycoga]

Umm, the two most powerful AoE CCs (Flashbang/Flash Grenade and Awe/Intimidating Roar) both break on damage so no, my complaint against opening a burst phase with a stun doesn't apply to them.

I said you were complaining about stunning itself; and you still are.

 

Yes, I know you have to spec into the bubble. What's your point? Rage Juggernauts have to spec 31 points into the Rage tree to get the overpowered Smashes, doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

'Overpowered' is not the same as 'abused'. And I say that only to help you clarify your own arguments, not as a suggestion that bubblestun is overpowered or abusable.

 

I think you're looking at my responses but not double-checking it against what you originally wrote.

[Laforet]

I play a hybrid healing sage since 1.2 hit and i already dabbled in bubble stunning even before the buff.

 

I think the mechanic can be seem as "unfun" because we are able to bubble our team thus making a stunbubble fest when even one of us are present in a fight.

 

While i understand the frustation it causes (especially after the resolve changes) i have to warn the non sages that the bubblestun is our crutch survivability mechanic since we have trash defenses and very low survivability in general.

 

As a sage, i would gladly trade bubblestun for more burst dps to our dps trees, a definitive fix for TK PvP or to make the bubble scale with surge and crit (it cant crit so it will always fall behind when the gear ramps up) or a reliable defensive cooldown like cloak of pain. But since the devs didnt gave us any of these we will have to use and abuse bubble stun to remain competitive.

 

Sorry.

[Ybini]

The stuns ok, but allowing it to be controlled by the bubbled player I think makes it bad. Its like handing out free stun grenades.

[AsiriusNazriel]

Well all I can say is you are trying to tell someone who plays a sage in bis gear and has alot of experience in rateds how to play balance/madness (your not even close to how to play it effectively btw, its effectiveness comes from dots and 10 ticks of fob not just proccing mindcrush, and spamming tele throw) because you have a lower level sorc and can top the dps charts. Forgive me in saying this but you have a very limited perspective, sages are at 50 end game are a different ball game completley. You are confusing healing specced sages with dps ones for starters. Dps sages do not get immunity from roots, that is called egress and sits high up in the healing tree.. Similarly hybrid sages do not get a benefit from a 20 second force speed, because they already had this pre 1.4, which is one of the main reasons you didnt spec balance/madness and you went hybrid..

 

I have played since early access, I have seen what has become of this class dps wise. Dps is what im discussing here not heals, I think the changes to heals are mostly positive. Prior to 1.4 sages were speccing dps hybrid balance/tele for a number of reasons:-

 

Balance/tele hybrid (typical)

 

Pros

 

-better survivability - bubble mezz

- Support for team mates in with shielding, stronger shield supported by the next point.

- Increased force resources

-root on an aoe knockback

-reduced cooldown on forcespeed

- Some sages would forgo a little crit in the healing tree for a proc on telewave from disturbance but this is situational and not always the case

 

Cons

 

Lower dps output overall, loss of criticals on periodic damage, loss of single target root.

 

Balance/madness - was the weaker spec (though it had higher dps output) comparted to hybrid.

 

Pros

 

Better damage from dots, and stronger criticals from fob

A decent single target root

Instant lift, though most hybrids specced for this anyway.

Decent damage mitigation from periodic damage ( I would spec this over project), project is too costly on force resources.

 

Cons

 

-Crap survivability - easily focused/shutdown

- terrible force resource issues i.e you run out quickly

-30 seconds on force speed

 

The changes made to sages and how they directly affect the dps specs are as follows:-

 

We lost 180 degrees on a knockback though it is now instant (very buggy thought i gather alot of classes have bug issues) and has a little range and frontal cone(better tool in one sense, loss of survival on the other), reduced to 10m our range on hard stun, gained a self instant heal which is useful but not 6-8k in dps spec, never have i seen those numbers, more like 2-4k in bis gear. Bubble mezz is no longer a mezz, its a stun, but then we have lost 180 degrees of protection from the knockback and we need some way of dealing with melee focus trains, which we are often a target of. Balance also gets 10 seconds knocked off of force speed, which was needed.

 

So how does that play out for Sages dps/wise?

 

Hybrid/balance/tele

 

Bubble mezz is now a stun - better change for survivability, though the fact it can be appliled on other classes has called for a nerf which will hit the sage survivability hard if it does happen.

Knockback is still talented to root though its changed into a 180 cone (no rear protection as such but cant really call it a flat out nerf since it can be used in positive ways to create distance with slight range, thought it does compound the issue with lack of range on the hard stun)

20 seconds force speed no longer needs to be specced into but its irrelevant because it shared that with better force resources

Still has better force resources than full balance

Bubbling team mates is not a prob because of decent force resources

now has an instant self heal, for moderate amount (the closest we get to a defensive cooldown, but its a heal)

reduced range on hard stun (nerf)

 

Balance

 

10 second reduction on force speed was a much needed change (buff).

Force resources still poor.

Better dps output than hybriid on dots, though you soon run out of force.

Still collapses under focus fire more quickly than hybrid.

Shielding team mates a waste of force resources

Lack of range on hard stun (nerf).

Single target root - a big plus for the spec.

Self-heal - useful for regaining a little force when needd as well as a top up when needed

 

Full tele?

 

Im not even going there, suffice to say its absolute garbarge for pvp and can be shutdown easily imo, its just a great big beacon that screams nuke me. It lacks any meaningful tools to kite, and hybrid trumps it because you can dip in both trees and get decent utility that it offers and procs from balance but there is a lack of overall dps. Still you will live longer in hybrid than in tele, any day of the week. .

 

Conclusion

 

I've played rateds as a dps sage, since their inception, I have watched this class be hit with the nerf bat while other classes are gifted strong defences, powerful burst, utility and seemingly left alone or further buffed. I see no reason why balance is a more beneficial spec since the recent changes to sage than hybrid in that environment. I still see no reason to bring a balance sage or even a hybrid dps sage when you can just stack fotm comps and players that can bring better utility and burst to the team because they scale better with bis gear, and have better defensive cooldowns. Dps still needs work on sage/sorc - and the loss of bubble stun will not help us, it will hinder us and give those fotm classes their free kills once more, and I feel most of the qq about bubble stun stems from this.

 

Dps sages are one of the weaker ac's, a loss of bubble stun or moving it up higher in the tele tree will make it even weaker. Therefore if we lose it, then we need something in return, either a buff to dps, a hard defensive cooldown, a single bursty proc (aoe or single target damage) that is decent, an in combat force regen skill such as evocate (wow mages) on a long cooldown, a drain energy/force mechanic, or force deflect skill that pushes back missiles sabers back at their attackers. Any one of those skills would be useful for us. The only alternative you would not like if we take another hit to survivabilty - maras, jugs, shadows, pts need to be be hit with the nerf bat like we were. Its that simple, so be careful what you ask for - you might not like what you get instead.

 

No No No and No.

 

I've seen good Madness Sorcs destroy in WZs and do bigger and more consistent numbers in 50 WZs, even rateds. You're complaining about being squishy, ugh yeah if you get 2 on 1 you'll probably die because of it. Seen some sick *** Sorcs absolutely destroy through kiting and their team utility from range is unbelieveable. They'll root melee classes and ranged nukes from a distance. I know some sick Sorc players, people just ain't playing the spec right.

 

Why do you not see any Madness Assassins in WZs, they have ridiculous potential. But it's hard to do it so people prefer to stick with a utility hybrid tank, although Madness DPS can be through the roof.

 

You speak of nerf bats but my Annihilation Mara has been getting nothing but nerf bats since day 1. BW gave people EZ buttons in 1.4 (yet again after they did it in 1.2) so now even half-retarded monkeys can spam smash.

 

It is a L2P issue because I have yet to see a good Sorc kite. Instead they just stand there and try to out-dps melee classes.

 

Oh and the nerf that Sorcs got, yeah that was the same **** that we're talking about. Bioware never intended for Hybrid specs to be viable or as viable. So chain lightning spamming proc monkeys weren't designed to do what they did. Neither was the bug ridden healing double dips that would heal a toon back to full in 2 seconds. But people used them anyways and it was a serious issue in WZs. I'm sure as a healer you may want to have easy runs of Voidstar with 4 healers, but as you know such teams are not viable now for a reason and that is because healing was not balanced before. Nowadays there are some sick healers even though everyone has 'gotten the nerf bat' as you call it.

 

And you want to nerf Maras? Dude, the majority of them are hooooorrible. Absolutely bad. When I see a Mara on my team I want to quit because they suck so bad. Very few people are as good on Maras as those who run PTs.

 

I know plenty about 50 WZs and ranked and Balance/Madness has it's place, especially to focus down hybrid healers with ranged nukes and roots. Sorry if you think that playing a Sorceror DPS means that you'll get to spam force lightning without people noticing. First targets are always healers and nuke spammers (Tracer Missiles & Force Lightning) and good elites.

[Siorac]

I said you were complaining about stunning itself; and you still are.

 

'Overpowered' is not the same as 'abused'. And I say that only to help you clarify your own arguments, not as a suggestion that bubblestun is overpowered or abusable.

 

I think you're looking at my responses but not double-checking it against what you originally wrote.

 

Jesus, you're like a squid, slippery and weird. You're just carefully avoiding responding to the actual points people make.

 

1) it's rubbish that Sorcerers can bubble an entire team, effectively giving an extra 3 sec stun for 8 people which they can use at will

2) my biggest problem with CC in this game, as I carefully explained to you, is that people use stuns to open up and unload their burst on you. There's no strategic use of CC. Those that break on damage ARE used strategically or as escape tools so I have little problem with those.

 

Clear enough now? The bubble stun makes the situation worse. Awe/Flashbang/Whirlwind are fine.

[Ycoga]

Jesus, you're like a squid, slippery and weird. You're just carefully avoiding responding to the actual points people make.

Geez... it's called having a discussion.

 

1) it's rubbish that Sorcerers can bubble an entire team, effectively giving an extra 3 sec stun for 8 people which they can use at will

Yes we already have heard that one.

 

2) my biggest problem with CC in this game, as I carefully explained to you, is that people use stuns to open up and unload their burst on you. There's no strategic use of CC. Those that break on damage ARE used strategically or as escape tools so I have little problem with those.

What's the difference between using stun to create a chance to deal damage or to create a chance to heal? Why is one strategic and not the other?

 

Clear enough now? The bubble stun makes the situation worse. Awe/Flashbang/Whirlwind are fine.

You must really hate cryo grenades.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Ycoga

[nellosmomishot]

As someone who has played the hybrid heal spec since before the 1.2 nerfs (and also played it in the highest ranked republic team on my server), I think they should just roll it back to be an AoE mezz. This will have literally no impact on the highest tier of PvP as competitive ranked teams know how to not break CC. As an added benefit, the total derps in this thread can go back to facerolling bad sages in unranked where they belong.

 

What would break the spec, leaving it as a stun and doubling the resolve. Why? It's because then you couldn't bubble more than one or two players or the enemy teams resolve would fill too quickly.

 

What would also break the spec, moving the talent higher in the TK tree. This would put it out of reach of healing trance. While I have tried going higher for a mental alacrity build and no healing trance, the force management is no good.

 

This spec is literally the only sage spec that is viable in RWZ, don't take it away from us because you can't be bothered to blade storm (or whatever ranged move your class has) from range (I have a focus guardian I know it works).

 

 

 

TL,DR: Just make it an AoE mezz again to appease the hordes of bads, it won't affect competitive PvP enough to be an issue.

Edited October 23, 2012 by nellosmomishot

[PloGreen]

No No No and No.

 

I've seen good Madness Sorcs destroy in WZs and do bigger and more consistent numbers in 50 WZs, even rateds. You're complaining about being squishy, ugh yeah if you get 2 on 1 you'll probably die because of it. Seen some sick *** Sorcs absolutely destroy through kiting and their team utility from range is unbelieveable. They'll root melee classes and ranged nukes from a distance. I know some sick Sorc players, people just ain't playing the spec right.

 

Why do you not see any Madness Assassins in WZs, they have ridiculous potential. But it's hard to do it so people prefer to stick with a utility hybrid tank, although Madness DPS can be through the roof.

 

You speak of nerf bats but my Annihilation Mara has been getting nothing but nerf bats since day 1. BW gave people EZ buttons in 1.4 (yet again after they did it in 1.2) so now even half-retarded monkeys can spam smash.

 

It is a L2P issue because I have yet to see a good Sorc kite. Instead they just stand there and try to out-dps melee classes.

 

Oh and the nerf that Sorcs got, yeah that was the same **** that we're talking about. Bioware never intended for Hybrid specs to be viable or as viable. So chain lightning spamming proc monkeys weren't designed to do what they did. Neither was the bug ridden healing double dips that would heal a toon back to full in 2 seconds. But people used them anyways and it was a serious issue in WZs. I'm sure as a healer you may want to have easy runs of Voidstar with 4 healers, but as you know such teams are not viable now for a reason and that is because healing was not balanced before. Nowadays there are some sick healers even though everyone has 'gotten the nerf bat' as you call it.

 

And you want to nerf Maras? Dude, the majority of them are hooooorrible. Absolutely bad. When I see a Mara on my team I want to quit because they suck so bad. Very few people are as good on Maras as those who run PTs.

 

I know plenty about 50 WZs and ranked and Balance/Madness has it's place, especially to focus down hybrid healers with ranged nukes and roots. Sorry if you think that playing a Sorceror DPS means that you'll get to spam force lightning without people noticing. First targets are always healers and nuke spammers (Tracer Missiles & Force Lightning) and good elites.

 

You have not even bothered to even comprehend my post at all. You have just gone on a massive rant completley ignoring what I just posted. I never said "nerf maras" specifically I said expect the altenative if you remove one of the only defences against multiple melee, yet i refute most of your bs claims in your first post and you just gloss over them and emphasise that specific point

 

For the last bloody time I do not play a sage as a healer.

 

The point is this - hybrid may not be intentionally the best spec for sages (according to you) but it remains superior to any full spec, which is why peopel are speccing it, dps or heals. To claim anything else is just bs.

 

Lastly you do not play one in rated comps at all so you have no understanding of what I'm trying to get across to you. A rated comp will focus you, everytime because as a sage you dont do well under focus fire, if you are balance/madness you are swiss cheese.

 

Its not a case of learning to kite, (please dont patronize me about the class), a good rated comp typically consists of stacking fotm classes and they will all focus your toon 2-3 of them, good luck dealing with that as full balance - bubble stun comes in handy for this but if you go hybrid dps/support you are gimping your dps output, but if you go full balance you are gimping your survivability and utility. There is no dream spec for sages, other than hybrid heals right now, people have stated it in this thread countless times.

 

Last time i looked mara's were not in a bad place at all, they are one of the strongest classes in the game - "most maras are crap" is a weak argument, the potential for that class with a skilled player far exceeds that of a dps sage, or merc and anyone who claims otherwise is delusional.

 

"Sorry if you think that playing a Sorceror DPS means that you'll get to spam force lightning without people noticing"

- dont even know how you even got that from anything I have written, I have been pretty articulate and given sound examples of the advantages and disadvantages of each spec, where as you have gotten key skills confused from healing and dps trees, think that playing madness is simple as using force lightning proccing raze, and topping the dps charts in lowbie warzones. Dont project your limited knowledge of sages on to me tyvm.

Edited October 23, 2012 by PloGreen

[Leafy_Bug]

I have taken the time to go through all the posts and there seems to be this apocalyptic approach if the bubble problems are being sorted. What is happening now with these sages/sorcs is an unintended side effect. The resolve system has been poorly tested by BioWare and people are abusing this loophole. Pre 1.4 the amount of stunlocking was insignificant compared to what is happening now. Everywhere you turn you get stunned. People pop the bubbles on purpose just to stun you because they know it will do minimum change to your resolve. If this stun would add more to the resolve of the player that gets stunned people will not be as trigger happy.

 

 

The developers need to address this and not view it as a survivability issue on the sorc/sage. Any ability that eliminates the opponent repeatedly without consequence, knowing there is a resolve system in place to counter this, is a major flaw in PVP.

[AsiriusNazriel]

I have taken the time to go through all the posts and there seems to be this apocalyptic approach if the bubble problems are being sorted. What is happening now with these sages/sorcs is an unintended side effect. The resolve system has been poorly tested by BioWare and people are abusing this loophole. Pre 1.4 the amount of stunlocking was insignificant compared to what is happening now. Everywhere you turn you get stunned. People pop the bubbles on purpose just to stun you because they know it will do minimum change to your resolve. If this stun would add more to the resolve of the player that gets stunned people will not be as trigger happy.

 

 

The developers need to address this and not view it as a survivability issue on the sorc/sage. Any ability that eliminates the opponent repeatedly without consequence, knowing there is a resolve system in place to counter this, is a major flaw in PVP.

 

Concise and to the point, thank you.

 

 

@PloGreen

In the hands of a good player Sages/Sorcs are no less devastating that a good Mara. Your arguement that the only viable DPS Sorc is a hybrid is false, I run with a full Madness tree spec'd Sorc who is almost on par with me as far as DPS is concerned and is ridiculously good. I run with the best Imperial premade on my server and I am never switching to Rage/Carnage, I stay Annihilation because that is where I own. We don't have preset standards for Rateds and I got my invite by not rolling a FOTM Mara but by being the best Annihilation spec on the server. The best Rated teams on my server are based upon inidividual player skill, not FOTM classes. FOTM preset standards are for exclusive elitists which I don't belong to.

 

I never said Mara is a weak class, I said majority of Maras are average at best. You listed DPS specs, so you got a response about DPS. If you can't make Balance work as a DPS tree then you should L2P. There are some amazing fully spec'd Balance/Madness players on my server, but here's the other truth, they are AMAZING players on all of their toons. Whether it be DPS Sorc or Trooper Heals or Guardian Tank.

 

The point being is that hybrid is an unintended problem that most certainly will be addressed by Bioware. Just like stunlocking 3 shot Operatives/Scoundrels and 10k Rage Juggs used to be. Hybrids don't fit anywhere on any design pattern and only grief WZs.

Edited October 23, 2012 by AsiriusNazriel

[DarthBror]

The real problem here is that Sorcs are a support role. Without a Gaurd or someone peeling to help us we are screwed. The DPS classes love us to heal them but could give a crap less when 2 are focusing us down. So out of pure nesscestity we have gone hybrid. I know some of you are going to say, "Well L2P then dude".. Lol ive gone for over 500k full Heal Spec'd and still lost on several occasions. Most healing myself and kiting the DPS thats up my butt.. Ill have like 2-3 deaths but objectives are completely ignored. This build allows me to multi task because im way less worried about getting rolled.

 

I dont care how elite of a PVPr you are or what spec you run. If your Heals and you get picked up by a determined DPS and no one peels to help you. your screwed.

 

Your all right. this will be nerfed. But please send us heals some love. protect us and we will heal you., the group will win. If not I will get my 500k in heals, but we will lose over and over.

 

I also think that if they change this bubble the lightning tree will be worthless for PVE. They will almost certainly have to compensate in some way for it. That will just leave another gaping hole to be exploited by yet another Hybrid build.

[AsiriusNazriel]

Yes please peel your fellow healers. They keep you up, so you should help them out too.

 

Mad props to my buddy Mort, aka DarthBror. who I vehemently agree to disagree with.

 

I do think that Sorcs/Sages need to have better survivability, but not at the expense of stunlocking WZs into retardation. The issue here is the Sorc/Sage bubble, not survivability. Hopefully Bioware can adjust both to make it fun for everyone.

[Phasersablaze]

So mele can't have a smashfest anymore when there are a couple bubble sorcs on the other team. Fine by me.

[Jenzali]

If I recall correctly a lot of people opted not to take this talent before 1.4 (even if they went up to the 3rd tier to get the knockback root) precisely because it would fill up resolve when they didn't want it to. Now that 1.4 has introduced major changes to resolve, I would place the blame on those resolve changes.

 

The second part of the argument is whether or not Sorcs need the extra survivability. I'd say there's no question about it, especially for DPS Sorcs. They need it, but I don't think that their 7 teammates of varying classes need it too. So if resolve is staying as it is then the effect should probably only trigger for the Sorc who casted it.

[SgtBranham]

I love the bubble. Mostly because it puts this song into my head.