PvP/HM FP build?

[amoskof]

So I have (like everyone) circumstances which determine my spec. I leveled up using vig spec (LOVE it), but when I dinged 50 (and finished the class quest) I switched to a hybrid tank spec.

 

The reasoning is that I love PvP and I love PvE both. Granted, I PvP alot more than I PvE, and my PvE is limited to HM FPs. My friend, who I usually play with, has a healer specced scoundrel. When we PvE we found it is easier to find two decent DPSes than it is to find a good tank. And good tank + good healer + 2 decent DPSes > good healer + good DPS + decent DPS + decent tank. At least according to our mad thoughts.

 

It took me a while to get comfortable PVPing with a tank. Is very different from vig spec PVP. But I endured, and have actually gotten pretty good at it. It isn't quite as satisfying as vig, as damage is fun, but it is ok. The PVE part is very satisfying, though not nearly as frequent.

 

Has anyone had any luck playing vig spec with warlord (ie tank) gear and soresu form in PVP? What about using that as main tank for FPs?

 

THanks!

Edited October 10, 2012 by amoskof

[Mattmonkey]

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Guardian#21dck2i-211j282k3-

 

This is the most popular hybrid spec for tanking. it is actually better for tanking single targets in PVE than full defence spec (the best players use it in end game raiding) however because it uses many vig talents its ok for PVP too - i think the guys that PvP as tank probably choose a few more PvPish talents but this spec does put out OK dps.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Mattmonkey

[amoskof]

Uuuuuh. That is my current spec. My question was if someone was able to play a vig spec successfully as a tank with warlord gear and soresu.

 

--Me

[BigGoatBR]

I used to play a similar build, but without the Shien Form points. A few weeks ago, I respec'd so I could get Hilt Strike and Command (more Force Push) instead of Overhead Slash and Commanding Awe. Most of the rest is the same.

 

I play 100% tank style, and my gear is 100% War Leader (60% BM, 20% War Hero, a few Recruit left) using Soresu Form. I have a lot of fun and usually am among the top players to contribute to the team (in terms of medals, mvp votes...), so I think I do a few things right.

 

Following opinions cover both specs (Vig/Def spec with Overhead Slash or Def/Vig spec with Hilt Strike).

 

PvP:

I play mostly PvP now a days. It is hard to adapt to a completely different gameplay (it's nothing like PvE) but once you do it's both fun and useful. As a tank, we just have to keep in mind that helping the team (mostly other players) is our real job, and not doing direct damage. I have some crit and surge augments, that plus the recent buffs can get me to reasonable damage results (100-150K per game, often 20-30 kills), but that's a secondary objective. Primary objectives are always to: 1) Protect healers (reason why I got Hilt Strike and Command); 2) taunt enemy DPS, specially in big fights (AoE taunt and correct use of stuns can really turn the tide of battles); 3) Make enemy's healers job tougher (again stuns and knockback help with this). That doesn't necessarely mean killing them - doing enough damage that they have to self-heal, or even pushing/freenzing them away from the main group works; 4) help strong DPS players on your team (with both guard and damage).

 

That, plus what we can do in Huttball (yes, tank guardians are among the best players in The Pit, if not the best), really make PvP worth it for us.

 

PvE:

Although I don't do it often enough, I have played through all HM FPs but Lost Island, and a couple of SM OPs. A few players go as far as saying I am a pretty good tank, but I think they are just being friendly lol. Guardians have the hardest time aggroing, so if you don't get a good team PvE can be hard, but once you get the hang of it it becomes quite doable. I recently did a quick, safe Kaon Under Siege run (hardest HM for many players) with full PvP gear and with a team that had not a single player with full Columi or better PvE gear. Same with False Emperor and Directive 7, to name a few of the considered hard ones. So I think with PvE gear I can be as good as most tanks out there with my current spec (while we lack in multi-target aggroing, we are pretty good in single-target tanking and mitigation).

 

Only parts I still have trouble are when we aggro as a mistake (and team isn't ready to deal with the mob), or when for some reason DPS can't handle big mobs quickly (sometimes I fail to aggro and they have to stun/run instead of killing; other times they just target wrong - playing with a melee tank, people need to remember to take out weak enemies quickly and by themselves, letting tank+healer handle the elite/champ).

 

So yeah, it is a very useful class. The temptation to go full DPS with focus and hit those 6-7K sweeps is high, but for now I really like the concept, gameplay and benefits of playing a full tank in PvP.

Edited October 15, 2012 by BigGoatBR

[amoskof]

I used to play a similar build, but without the Shien Form points. A few weeks ago, I respec'd so I could get Hilt Strike and Command (more Force Push) instead of Overhead Slash and Commanding Awe. Most of the rest is the same.

 

I play 100% tank style, and my gear is 100% War Leader (60% BM, 20% War Hero, a few Recruit left) using Soresu Form. I have a lot of fun and usually am among the top players to contribute to the team (in terms of medals, mvp votes...), so I think I do a few things right.

 

Following opinions cover both specs (Vig/Def spec with Overhead Slash or Def/Vig spec with Hilt Strike).

 

PvP:

I play mostly PvP now a days. It is hard to adapt to a completely different gameplay (it's nothing like PvE) but once you do it's both fun and useful. As a tank, we just have to keep in mind that helping the team (mostly other players) is our real job, and not doing direct damage. I have some crit and surge augments, that plus the recent buffs can get me to reasonable damage results (100-150K per game, often 20-30 kills), but that's a secondary objective. Primary objectives are always to: 1) Protect healers (reason why I got Hilt Strike and Command); 2) taunt enemy DPS, specially in big fights (AoE taunt and correct use of stuns can really turn the tide of battles); 3) Make enemy's healers job tougher (again stuns and knockback help with this). That doesn't necessarely mean killing them - doing enough damage that they have to self-heal, or even pushing/freenzing them away from the main group works; 4) help strong DPS players on your team (with both guard and damage).

 

That, plus what we can do in Huttball (yes, tank guardians are among the best players in The Pit, if not the best), really make PvP worth it for us.

 

PvE:

Although I don't do it often enough, I have played through all HM FPs but Lost Island, and a couple of SM OPs. A few players go as far as saying I am a pretty good tank, but I think they are just being friendly lol. Guardians have the hardest time aggroing, so if you don't get a good team PvE can be hard, but once you get the hang of it it becomes quite doable. I recently did a quick, safe Kaon Under Siege run (hardest HM for many players) with full PvP gear and with a team that had not a single player with full Columi or better PvE gear. Same with False Emperor and Directive 7, to name a few of the considered hard ones. So I think with PvE gear I can be as good as most tanks out there with my current spec (while we lack in multi-target aggroing, we are pretty good in single-target tanking and mitigation).

 

Only parts I still have trouble are when we aggro as a mistake (and team isn't ready to deal with the mob), or when for some reason DPS can't handle big mobs quickly (sometimes I fail to aggro and they have to stun/run instead of killing; other times they just target wrong - playing with a melee tank, people need to remember to take out weak enemies quickly and by themselves, letting tank+healer handle the elite/champ).

 

So yeah, it is a very useful class. The temptation to go full DPS with focus and hit those 6-7K sweeps is high, but for now I really like the concept, gameplay and benefits of playing a full tank in PvP.

 

I've seen you around, BigGoat. I'm on Begeren's can't be Chooserens also, since launch. I've even played with you a few times, though I don't often see you. My guardian toon is Elisean.

 

I've been playing Guardian successfully for a while now. I just never tried to tank with a DPS spec and was wondering if it was possible - I don't want to monkey up my teammates by showing up with a sub-par spec and losing for a week

 

Oh, and the spec linked above isn't mine, it is just close enough to mine that the differences are negligeable. I don't put any points into Shien either.

 

--Me

[BigGoatBR]

Hi Elisean, nice to see you around.

 

Yeah, some people might complain, but I think you will be fine. Very few people use full Defensive tree specs now a days, it's not considered as good as Def/Vig hybrid, so that helps hybrids like us. Like I said I ended up coming back to a more DEF based spec, but only because I wanted Hilt Strike. It's working pretty well but I'm not sure I will keep it.

 

In PvE we get pretty good mitigation, so biggest issue is aggroing. As long as you have enough skills to help you aggroing (threat generating skills like Hilt Strike, Guardian Slash; or stuns that can help out) your team should do fine. There are many people here in the forum talking about the benefits of having "more DPS" as a tank, like stacking Power and Strength. It helps generating threat and also increases your Blade Barrier damage reduction (I don't know the formula, but it is affected by offensive stats). So with a hybrid tank build you should do as good, if not better, than full tank specs.

 

See you around!

[amoskof]

I'm pretty comfortable with the hybrid vs defense debate. My question up at the top is more about using a pure vig spec combined with soresu (sp?) and warlord gear for PvP. Will the damage increase be worth it, and how much will I lose in mitigation. If so, would it still work as a tank spec in PvE (HM Flashpoints, anyway, not ops) with tank gear + vig spec and soresu?

 

Obviously i'm currently using a Hybrid and it works well for me, but since I PvP alot and my only PvE is HM Flashpoints, well.... What can I improve?

 

--Me

[BigGoatBR]

I got it now. Well, I think we are in very similar situations, since I also PvP more and do HM FPs, so we could wait for other considerations. I've said most of what I know. From my part, as a full vig spec I would mostly miss Warding Call, Guard Stance and Blade Barrier. One couldn't call it a huge mitigation loss, considering what you get from Vig. But since I haven't played a full vig before, I will stop answering here =).

 

* You mean War Hero gear, right?

[amoskof]

* You mean War Hero gear, right?

 

Actually, I mean warlord gear. Vindicator spec + soresu + warlord (ie tank) gear == better DPS than hybrid, but much better mitigation than DPS gear. Because the armour is more endurance.

 

I'd have the same hitpoints as a hybrid or pure tank (same gear, same level), more dps, but not some of the few good defense abilities.

 

Only challenge would be focus generation - a general soresu problem.

 

--Me

[grallmate]

The build Mattmonkey posted is about the best you can get if you want to do both. It has Stasis Master for PvP and Warding Call/Blade Barrier for PVE tanking. You also have Commanding Awe which turn Focused Defence into a great PvP CD and keeps your Int/Ele resist up. Going any higher in either tree really hurts what you gain from the other though.

 

For PVP grabbing Hilt Strike or Command can be useful but means you lose survivability (Commanding Awe) and threat (OHS). Great for Guarding a healer, bad for killing things. Grabbing Zen Strike or Plasma Brand is great for DPS (or threat) but you lose utility (Stasis Mastery) and survivability (Blade Barrier and/or Warding Call).

 

In regards to your question about running full Vigilance spec in tank gear + Soresu: if you can handle the Focus management you can absolutely do that. Most of the survivability for Guardian's comes from gear. The Defence tree really just makes Soresu playable. So doing that the only survivability you lose is:

- Warding Call

- Blade Barricade

- Blade Barrier

That said, sustained Focus management is going to be a nightmare for PvE since you aren't getting to throw/leap all the time. I suspect it would be alright for PvP but haven't tried it.

 

If you want to be a true PvP tank, the tools in Defence (2 stuns, lower CD on push, Freezing Force) are awesome but you will deal no damage. If you want to be a tough DPS or decent PvP tank, the Hybrid is awesome. If you want to be a part time PvP tank, Vigilance is viable since Taunt, Guard and Guardian Leap are all unaffected by spec and you still get Awe, Push and (channelled) Stasis for helping out your Guard target.

[BigGoatBR]

Actually, I mean warlord gear. Vindicator spec + soresu + warlord (ie tank) gear == better DPS than hybrid, but much better mitigation than DPS gear. Because the armour is more endurance.

 

I'd have the same hitpoints as a hybrid or pure tank (same gear, same level), more dps, but not some of the few good defense abilities.

 

Only challenge would be focus generation - a general soresu problem.

 

--Me

 

I actually mistyped myself. I think both you and me mean War Leader gear =).

http://www.torhead.com/item-set/36B1vTJ/battlemaster-war-leaders-gear

[amoskof]

I actually mistyped myself. I think both you and me mean War Leader gear =).

http://www.torhead.com/item-set/36B1vTJ/battlemaster-war-leaders-gear

 

Doh, Bart!!!! War Leader indeed.

 

--Me