MorgonKara Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The progression once you reach level 50 is for people that do group content. The vast majority of the content in the game can be done solo on your way to 50. "Progression" is not part of the single player story-driven experience. So if I'm a solo player I should just quit when I get to lvl 50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) So if I'm a solo player I should just quit when I get to lvl 50? That's not what I'm saying. You said: Too much emphasis on raiding in a game that's supposed to be a story-based RPG IMHO. ... I'm saying this: 1. The game is a story-based MMORPG 2. If you enjoy the story, there is a ton of content for you to do. 3. Raiding is optional. 4. If you're doing raiding for the story, there are only 4 operations and then you're done. 5. If you're interested in gear progression, this has nothing to do with story There are 4 operations vs several hundred class and planetary quests. This is NOT too much emphasis on raiding. I'm also saying that the lure of good gear got me to try group content and I enjoyed it. If I hadn't gotten into group content, there would be nothing left for me to do and I would have left ages ago. Edited October 9, 2012 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 ...If I hadn't gotten into group content, there would be nothing left for me to do and I would have left ages ago. Exactly my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I like having the option of grouping with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Exactly my point. Your point is NOT the same as mine. You've described how horrible it is to group, that there is too much emphasis on raiding and that raiders don't care about story. I extrapolate from this that you wish there were solo versions of end-game raids so you never had to group with anyone to get progression gear. I say that grouping with good people is fun, that there is a good balance between solo content and group content, that I enjoy both the story and the raiding, and that the promise of end-game gear got me to TRY group content and I think that is a good thing. Edit: I also want to say that I do understand your viewpoint, except for the part about "too much emphasis on raiding." There are only 4 raids! Edited October 10, 2012 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothear Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Your point is NOT the same as mine. You've described how horrible it is to group, that there is too much emphasis on raiding and that raiders don't care about story. I extrapolate from this that you wish there were solo versions of end-game raids so you never had to group with anyone to get progression gear. I say that grouping with good people is fun, that there is a good balance between solo content and group content, that I enjoy both the story and the raiding, and that the promise of end-game gear got me to TRY group content and I think that is a good thing. Well good for you, but not everyone wants to do that. To be honest you are starting to sound more like a 'well I like raiding so screw you' sort of person. If this is the case then it's sad. Variety at end game is needed for all players not just raiders, the game shouldn't end for solo players just because you reach 50. Note how Blizz did this in Cata and went from 12m to 10m (I have ignored the last 1m as that was after Dragon Soul), and as a result their latest expansion has much more solo/small group content than the last one. Blizzard aren't totally dumb (Panda's aside), I hope BW aren't as well. edited because I called Blizz BW dooh Edited October 10, 2012 by mothear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Since launch we have gotten 2 new raids, 2 new flashpoints, a new warzone and 0 main story content. Do i have to spell it out for you. they follow WOWs model for endgame and are focused on raids. currently, once you finish the class story you can do your dailies, raid or ****. Edited October 10, 2012 by MorgonKara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Well good for you, but not everyone wants to do that. To be honest you are starting to sound more like a 'well I like raiding so screw you' sort of person. If this is the case then it's sad. Variety at end game is needed for all players not just raiders, the game shouldn't end for solo players just because you reach 50. Note how BW did this in Cata and went from 12m to 10m (I have ignored the last 1m as that was after Dragon Soul), and as a result their latest expansion has much more solo/small group content than the last one. Blizzard aren't totally dumb (Panda's aside), I hope BW aren't as well. Sigh. If I came off sounding that way, I apologize. Just so you know, I really really enjoyed the solo content. I never intended to group. I happened to discover some others that I enjoy hanging out with and I found out I like doing group content. The reason why I keep posting on this thread there seems to be a heavy "anti-group" sentiment. I want to balance this, as I believe this game caters to both types of people, in its current incarnation. The only thing that TOR doesn't allow you to do, is obtain level 56+ gear doing solo content exclusively. For me personally (and this won't apply to everyone) this encouraged me to try the multiplayer side of the game and I enjoyed it. I fear that if this were changed, other solo players who could have discovered they liked raiding may never even try. Edited October 10, 2012 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Since launch we have gotten 2 new raids, 2 new flashpoints, a new warzone and 0 main story content. ... This is a fair point and I agree with you on this. I too would love to see Chapter 4 story for my toons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 maybe u missed the part where i mentioned i have a juggernaut in full rakata and have tanked all the instances before 1.3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 This is a fair point and I agree with you on this. I too would love to see Chapter 4 story for my toons. alright then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sankalp Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Let me tell you how I see it. This is my first MMO. I knew before the game launched that I wanted to get into endgame raiding. I am pretty dedicated to it and wanted to get the best gear etc etc. Started solo with no one else I know in RL playing this. Got my main to 50 and tried group content and got the same feeling. Elitist jerks blah bhah. Specially in PVP. pugs by nature are going to be a vast spectrum of people, some rude, some kind, some who have no freaking idea of what to do and some who wanna learn but are just not as skilled at this time and some who have cleared all content on 5 toons and are grinding gear for a 6th. I wound pug raids, sit in Vent/Mumble/TS for raids, not speak(I am indian, and didnt really wanna cause issue with my accent etc). I was a decent player, knew what to do, was a DPS so could tunnel and it went ok at times, not too good at other times. Then I joined a Guild that I liked, started being involved more in raids, was asked to respec my main(assassin) as a tank and slowly started being active on VOIP while raiding(you have to as a tank). Since then to now I have run everything multiple times on many toons, cleared everything, have best in slot for most of the stuff and am doing TFB atm. Someone said when you do ops and fps with ppl, they just spacebar through it. Have you considered that it might be because this is the 100th time they are running a particular op and have seen the story enough can can quote the cut scene line by line? I still sometimes run my lowest alt with pugs as it is not geared enough to go on main guild runs. And once again, when I pug I see the same thing. Some people are elitist and think everyone should do everything perfectly, some are just horrible skill levels and annoy the elitists, which causes them to rage, which gives the trolls in the group to have fun, which makes it hard for genuine new people to be part of the group and some who cant take it prolly give up on grouping and go and unsub or roll an alt. I will strongly advice you to seek out like minded guilds. There are enough social guilds around who will run endgame as a social group. Infact most hardcore raiding guilds will have a 3rd or 4th run as social runs. I knwo of guilds that do drunk runs on weekends and hardcore progression on weekdays. There are guilds that actively seek people of a particular age group, skill level, social etc. Once you are part of a raiding guild even a social one, you will find interaction in groups easier coz you run with the same people most of the time. your skill level will increase as you find yourself clearing more and more content and you will get better and better gear. you will experience things you cannot do solo. World bosses, Ops, Fps, etc etc. You will still eb able to do a lot of solo if you dont feel like raiding, but you will have options. And eventually you will get BIS for everything and be able to help the noob pugs and carry them through low level ops content and they will thank you for it. Dont think you dont wanan group coz you have had some bad experiences. Infact most experiences will be bad, but there are sure to be some superb ones and if you had a good time in a 4 man group with 2 ppl of the same guild, ask them for an invite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormeacru Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 The reason end game raiders have access to better loot is beacuse running a raid is considerably more time consuming and frustrating than solo'ing. It has nothign to do with the dev's liking raiders over solo'ers. Raid guilds spend considerable amounts of time recruiting, gearing and training their guilds to work well together. Learning the fights through trial and error, and putting up with the inevitable drama that comes with competitive people vying for the same goal. The better gear they recieve is the reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunafox Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Too much emphasis on raiding in a game that's supposed to be a story-based RPG IMHO. Oh and all the raiders I've ever played with spacebarred through the stories in the dungeons, all they care about is the gear TBH. I bet most raiders in this game don't even care to know the story of the raids. This, I think this person has nailed it right on the head. I want more class story, and the ability to earn my things solo. I don't want to use other people to help me get stuff. I want the ability to get/earn/make stuff myself thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) This, I think this person has nailed it right on the head. I want more class story, and the ability to earn my things solo. I don't want to use other people to help me get stuff. I want the ability to get/earn/make stuff myself thx. Same here. I started this game in a prelaunch raiding guild and it was nothing but bad drama. it got so bad that I quit and rerolled completely new on a different server abandoning like 8 toons and a maxed out legacy. Edited October 10, 2012 by MorgonKara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I don't believe you. Not only does grouping give better bonus XP but also social points, better loot and it's faster than soloing to complete content. There are many benefits to playing in a party yet people still solo most of the time. I didn't say there's no incentive to group, I said there's no reason to group. Grouping gives better XP's. Yes it does. My current character has solo'd almost everything except some Heroics. Most Heroics I've given up trying to get groups for and solo'd them. I'm currently 5 levels above the content the story sends me to. I don't need or want an XP boost. Grouping gives better social points. Agree with this. Grouping gives better loot. It's a marginal increase. It's also split with up to 3 other people so the end result is probably you get one blue vendor trash piece instead of 2 green ones. Grouping is faster. Any actual increase in the speed it takes to kill mob's is negligible since they are ultra-simple to kill solo. Grouping with another of the same class causes you to repeat class content for each player of that class. Since there are only 4 classes per faction, odds are pretty good there will be 2 of any one in a group. Class quests generally have the longest cutscenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) There are plenty reasons to group, you just don't want to like most people. Saying there is no reason to is just an excuse -if people wanted to they would. I'm telling you if the endgame content was soloable I doubt people would group at all. if you had the option to solo the raids you telling me you would still group up 8 people to do them? Edited October 10, 2012 by MorgonKara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) LOTRO used to have 8 person group instances as part of the main story. Players were getting stuck because they couldn't get parties together to do them so they made it so if you queue solo, your character gets buffed like a boss. it's pretty sweet. i think the buff's called Inspiration; You feel inspired. lol Edited October 10, 2012 by MorgonKara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 There are plenty reasons to group, you just don't want to like most people. Saying there is no reason to is just an excuse -if people wanted to they would. I'm telling you if the endgame content was soloable I doubt people would group at all. if you had the option to solo the raids you telling me you would still group up 8 people to do them? If I wanted a solo game, I'd play a good one, not an MMO. If I want to group, I'll play an MMO. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mourasantos Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I think MMO's just aren't for you in general. Then make them be. MMO's should be for everybody, not just reclusive number-crunchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 If I wanted a solo game, I'd play a good one, not an MMO. If I want to group, I'll play an MMO. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. That's a yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mourasantos Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 It already happened. The "classic" solo RPG has been dead and buried for years. What passes as an RPG today would not have been called an RPG back when the classics were released. Bethesda and Bioware games are sort of the natural evolution of the classic RPG. The solo RPG will survive in one form or another. Bethesda's last 4 games in particular have been very good, and very successful (Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, and Skyrim). There's no reason to think they will stop making games like them. LOL @ Bethesda's last four games being very good. I guess you must have read that somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Do people play MMOs because they like to play with other people or because they like to be forced to play with other people? that's what I'm trying to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Do people play MMOs because they like to play with other people or because they like to be forced to play with other people? that's what I'm trying to figure out. I play with others because I like to but then again I chose who I group with. I can understand some of the problems when you group with people you don't know. You never know what type of people you are going to get. I only group with my friends and my guild. I admit there are some players that play I can understand not grouping with. Some people can be rude and hateful so my solution is just to group with my guild and friends and that way I don't have to deal with attitudes when doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) I dont get it, what are you going to use Rakata gear for soloing? . This is the silliest and most overused argument against equalizing rewards for soloers. The premise is that you don't need the best gear because there is no content that 'requires' it. There are a couple of problems with this line of thinking: 1) The top tier gear is NEVER needed. It's a reward for completing the highest tier content which by definition means you don't NEED it to complete the highest tier content. 2) There is no reason that challenging solo content cannot be created that would need gear that is superior to what is normally offered. I can believe that people continue to trot out this canard, because it is not even related to the reason that grouping/raiding content is better rewarded. The reason is simple, the developers want to reward grouping and playing with other people. Not the passive kind of interaction that we see from the GTN or sales, but combating the game's challenges (or other players) with other people. This is done because historically that connection to the community has had a pretty good correlation to those who stay with the game the longest. It's why community building is so important. Solo players want nice gear for the same reasons raiders want nice gear.....to have nice gear and progress your character. There is nothing wrong with wanting gear that eventually trivializes solo content for a soloer because that's exactly what raiders want, gear that eventually trivializes raid content. All that said, I do not agree with the OP. Even given equivalent effort, it is perfectly reasonable for the developers to reward grouping, even to provide exclusive rewards that cannot be accessed via soloing. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't always be an upgrade path for soloers. There absolutely should. What I have been hoping is that the devs move lower tiers of endgame gear on to the Daily Commendations Vendors as new tiers of gear are created. So for example, I would sell Tionese and Columni at this point for Daily Commendations because there are multiple higher tiers of gear. I might even downgrade Rakata to HM Flashpoint rewards. In that way, there is always a strong incentive to raid and group, but soloers are never shut out of progression. Edited October 10, 2012 by Master-Nala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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