What could concealment do?

[Moonheart_S]

As actualy stated in some other thread, the current design of the concealment operative is somewhat screwed for a psychological reason: Bioware won't let us be efficient at backstabbing because players (especialy new ones in pvp, who have only the recruit gear) will never accept the feeling to be killed without a chance to reply, straight out of stealth.

 

That's a psychological problem that is present in almost every MMOG with stealther, and it's not going to disappear even if we wish so.

 

Now, the question I ask here is: What could we do instead of that, that could be interesting and useful?

 

My own idea is: I'd like us to be flankers. People that perform an assist-dps to help focus in a team, with low survivability, but hurting a lot if they gang someone from behind while another dps, like a mara strike from the front.

 

We already have some tools to do that: stealth and backstab to flank people, root/snare to help the other dps to glue on someone... we just lack a tool allowing to switch targets efficiently once we killed someone, imho, like a mara-style stealth usable only when someone with our acid blade dot on him dies, or something like that...

[Cessio]

As i see it right now, all we need is a gap closer, and a bit more survivability.

I haven't been playing wow for a long time. But i feel the way rogues work, even though ppl often claim them to be OP, is the way a stealther SHOULD work.

 

A bit burst, enough to make you scared and pop your cools, and enough survivability to actually not be ****ed when your out of stealth.

 

I think our dmg output is decent. Mby it should be just a bit higher, but what makes it worst for me, is that we're having a very hard time to survive out of our stealth, we should not be able to just casually run around non stealth and pwn stuff. But we should be ablo to not be ****ed just because we are out of stealth.

 

A thing like Cheat death, that rogues has, is an ability that i think would be a life saver for the Operatives. That and a gap closer, somewhat like shadowstep would be a savior.

 

Inno the game is not supposed to the same as wow. But since i can't come up with some brand new ideas i steal some that works!

I'm sure some a bit more creative than me would be able to use ideas, reconfigure them and make them swtors own.

[TheronFett]

Operative is a support class. Even as DPS spec, they have medium armor and off-heals, which pretty much negates them from ever being front-liners. PvP in this game is not balanced around 1vs1 scenarios, and Concealment Operative plays very well in a support role.

 

You should be selecting targets already engaged with a Powertech or Juggernaut. A Sage dangling helplessly in the air under the power of Force Choke is a tasty treat for a Concealment Operative. Perform your opener from stealth, smack them around a bit, then re-stealth and move on. The recent changes to Concealment in 1.4 have made this much easier, and it's how the spec is meant to be played.

 

There are a variety of escape tools available if you get held out of stealth for too long.

Edited October 10, 2012 by TheronFett

[Coldin]

Operative is a support class. Even as DPS spec, they have medium armor and off-heals, which pretty much negates them from ever being front-liners. PvP in this game is not balanced around 1vs1 scenarios, and Concealment Operative plays very well in a support role.

 

You should be selecting targets already engaged with a Powertech or Juggernaut. A Sage dangling helplessly in the air under the power of Force Choke is a tasty treat for a Concealment Operative. Perform your opener from stealth, smack them around a bit, then re-stealth and move on. The recent changes to Concealment in 1.4 have made this much easier, and it's how the spec is meant to be played.

 

There are a variety of escape tools available if you get held out of stealth for too long.

 

It's no excuse. Powertechs get tanking abilities, but they aren't resigned to a "support" class.

 

Operative healing just isn't that great if you aren't specced into it. It's slow, easily interrupt-able, and roots the player in place. It's just not useful for an in-combat heal.

 

As for picking on weak targets, any class can do that. It's not exclusive to operatives, and while we have good burst, it's not really better than some other classes.

 

PVP may not be designed around 1v1 scenarios but when every other class can do what a DPS operative can do and in some cases better, what's the point of an operative?

[warultima]

I play my concealment operative in regular wz all the time (I have rWZ spot on my PT and my Marauder btw).

We do have decent burst, but its really not much better if its even better than some of other classes.

I dont care what people say about the Sin's maul lol I have been mauled for 6.2k with 1339 expertise on my sorc. The hardest hitting move from operative will never go that high. Actually if the Sin knows how to play, I was hit by (1339 expertise mind you) a Discharge for 5.8k followed by a maul for 6.2k then killed by a shock for 4.8k. I was only at 70% hp but still its how much they can burst in 3GCD that operative will never ever ever forever never come close to. Oh yea did I mention the sin didnt even open up on me from stealth like operatives HAVE TO to get any kind of burst out? He flat out killed someone and turned around and ran up to me and 5.8k 6.2k 4.8k thru my 1339 expertise.

 

I wont even mention the utilities Sin has here because it takes someone in serious brain trauma to deny the "overall" regardless of spec superiority Sin has over operatives not including the healing tree ofc.

Edited October 11, 2012 by warultima

[Moonheart_S]

*shakes head*

That's a cool story, War, but you do still fail to understand the psychology of players, as well as how Sins works.

 

A Sin can't do what you say straight when coming out of stealth. They need to charge their spells: Maul requiers a proc that only have a 30% to happen at each GCD at most to be usable without screwing their energy bar, Discharge need to get 5 proc charges from another source to reach this damage numbers, and shock also requiers to be charged by 3 hits of Voltaic Slash before...

That's A LOT of preparation and in addition, every control they will do won't count in this "charging" process (none of them provides any proc).

During this preparation, the ennemy can activate their defense abilities, they can strike back, they can move... they can do *something*. Sure, if the sin charged on someone else before he can land both Maul, Discharge and Shock on you and utterly destroy you in 3 strikes... but you had the chance to saw them before it happen, a chance to react.

 

Operatives do less damage but they do it immediately when they appear, and WHILE they control the target. You can take 15k of damage from an operative even before you have ONE CHANCE to use an ability to defend yourself.

Hidden Strike 4k, Acid Blade 2,5k, Debilitate 2k, Shiv 2,5k, Backstab 4k => 15k with nothing you can do against except if your cc break timer hasn't be used yet, and I'm not even displaying the highest numbers for those abilities.

Yes, it is 4 attack to do slightly less than what a charged up sin can do in 3, without using stealth.... but if you are in recruit gear, it means you are killed without even given the chance to fight back. You didn't see it coming, you didn't had even the authorisation to activate a single skill to retaliate or try to escape... and you're dead.

And *this* is the thing that players hate the most. Read again: They hate it. They HATE it, with capital letters. They would rather see all operatives die and burn in hell forever and the class be deleted from SWTOR than accept a such thing.

 

So, Bioware won't make this worst by raising these damage numbers.

They won't increase damage of any of the skills aforementionned. They won't also give us an ability allowing us to land HS twice on the same target.

The goal of this thead is to ask: "Then, what can they give to us to fix us?"

Edited October 11, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[warultima]

Warultima, Sins are not the topic here.

 

OFC it could be. Deception Sin is like a "benchmark" for "stealthy" class. If Sins are allowed to be so faceroll, there's no reason why BW should keep concealment so crappy. You were arguing about how Backstab hits harder than Maul even tho people proven you wrong with math and now Assassin forum "MANY" Assassin players has posted what you called "real life in game data" of a screenshot of their Maul critting 7000+.

7036 Maul

Wont be seeing any 7k hidden strike let along backstab which is weaker.

 

Hidden Strike, the most powerful attack operative has are struggling to go over 5.5k even against 0 expertise, let along backstab which is about 15% weaker than hidden strike. Heck while it requires setup even discharge hits harder than both Backstab and Hidden Strike and discharge is even INTERNAL damage that bypass all armor (backstab crits for <3000 vs tanks while discharge can do upwards 6k regardless of armor/mitigation).

 

While Sins super huge attacks (proven by screenshots of REAL INGAME DATA AND MATH) that operatives can NEVER EVER match, takes some setup, they are also given the tool to "help them endure" while they are setting it up e.g a MASSIVE 25% DR everytime they come out of stealth (AND they can blackout again to make it last even longer).

 

Now we all see full deception Sin can be viable with their skill tree revamped, why cant we use this as a benchmark and try to bring operatives closer to their much more superior stealth cousin, the Assassins?

 

But whatever, as you can see many people that replied to operative forum are dropping their subs, because your beloved BW and their infinite wisdom in designing classes are doing a "great job" killing this game.

 

It's good you tried to open a thread asking us how operative can be improved but this isnt the 1st thread like this. There are HUNDREDS of ideas on how concealment/lethality can be made viable in the old "Official Class Feedback" thread. ZERO, may I say it again ZERO (0) idea were used by the DEV. While the already powerful Sin (with MULTIPLE viable specs that can burst/DPS BEFORE 1.4) receives a sweeping buff to their middle tree that also has strong synergy with other 2. (oh I know because I know run a darkness/deception hybrid with just 3 points into duplicity which works super great, my Lv49 Sin's maul RUNNING DARK SURGE aka tank stance is even critting for 4.5k+).

 

It's obvious BW has no clue how to fix operatives, so I am pointing out a different approach to bring Ops more in line with Sins. Since Sin can do it and it's NOT OP then why not do it for operatives as well? As it is not only Sin can easily outburst Ops they also boast much better survival abilities, better defensive CDs, force speed, sustained and they dont even have to rely on opening from stealth to BURST.

 

Yes, THINK about it, throw away your biased opinions of "Sins should always be better than operative because operatives are not Assassins". Currently we all know PT/Mara/Sin are FotM especially in PvP. Take some of the stuff that works well and change it to fit operative's skill set, to bring them up closer to these FotMs, I mean why not?

 

It's OK for Sin to do 7k mau,l + 6k discharge, + 5k shock in 3 GCD against 1100+ expertise but not ok for operative to be comparable?

 

Lastly ok what I think they can do to help operatives (to be closer to super powerful Sin) are...

1. Take some of the "setup" idea from Sin and give to operatives e.g other games rogue class has "combo points" that leads into a big attack after you have built up the combo points. You know like how Voltaic Slash stacking buff for shock, and static charges stacking buff for discharge? Operative version could be every damaging attack has a chance to grant Poisonous Intentions, increasing the damage done by your next Acid Blade by 10% stack up to 5 times.

 

2. Easy stuff to give operative an execute, useable when enemy is under 30% hp, same damage as Assassinate 6 second CD low energy cost (this will help with PvE dps as well).

 

3. Back Stab go back to 6 second CD like how it was pre-nerf. BS doesnt even hit as hard as Maul, not even close, yet it has a whopping 12 second CD. Duplicity can reproc once every 9 second with MASSIVE DAMAGE.

 

4. Like some people have mentioned a move that give you a "fake" stealth that doesnt really hide you, but allow you to use Hidden Strike. 30 second CD.

 

5. Better energy management. Rightnow Sin always regen 60% faster than Operative at highest regen tier. At 2nd tier regen tier Sin now regen 166% faster, at minimum tier Sin now regens 400% faster. Making stim boost to return 1 addition energy by defaut will help a lot.

 

6. Evasion should last longer than lol 3 second. It doesnt even work against 90% of the attacks in this game and 3 seconds? really?

 

7. Shield Probe will give us 25% DR for 6 second or so like deception Sin's blackout (yes Shield Probe has much longer CD than blackout which auto resets, but I will settle for anything atm).

 

8. Acid Blade ArPen back to 50%

 

9. Give concealment a Gouge (Low Slash) short term CC.

 

10. Explosive Probe useable without cover (convenience feature)

 

11. A real gap closer on par as force speed or better "Shadow Step" for all you rogue fans.

 

12. A special stance that procs for more damage but prevent the operative from casting ALL HEALS.

 

13. Rifle Shot (auto attack) regens energy.

 

There are just so many you can do to "help" operative without making them more powerful than deception Sin (so Moonheart doesnt have to worry losing his FotM status to operatives.) And trust me I came up with the 13 options just right on top of my head, and most of them have already been posted in the old "Official Class Feedback" thread that BW totally ignored.

 

*sigh ignorant people are ignorant*

Edited October 11, 2012 by warultima

[Moonheart_S]

It's OK for Sin to do 7k mau,l + 6k discharge, + 5k shock in 3 GCD against 1100+ expertise but not ok for operative to be comparable?

 

Exactly that. And I explained why above (I was editing for more explanation while you were posting it seems)

 

As long you won't understand the psychological factor (as well as some other little factors but the psychological one is the subject of this topic), you won't understand why Bioware will throw all your ideas to the trash (If they ever read them, because I tell you again: this is a player board. Not a board where devs come to read and gather information)

 

Read me well: It is just 100% logical for the good of a game that Bioware don't do anything that could increase our opening burst damage because it will make scream every other player around us

That's gamedesign for you. It just not take in account maths, or numbers, it's far more complex than this.

 

You can accuse me to be a "BW lover". I am not. I'm just someone that have some clue about real gamedesign and understand slightly better what's BW is currently doing and why and try to explain you, when you are only raging because you one-sided point of view doesn't get a postive echo in the patchs.

Seems it is useless because you don't want to listen. You rather prefer to argue pointlessly on numbers taken out of context, or accuse me to be a fanboy, than try to understand what I want to explain you.

 

Fine. Continue. You will only rage more and more and more and will never been listened anyway, never be happy in the game and only make your situation worst by discouraging other players while drowning yourself in pointless rents and self-constructing pessimism.

 

And yes, there are other threads around. That were not listened.

But you know, as I'm prefectly aware that the devs don't read this board, I'm not expecting it to be "listened" at all.

 

I'm just brainstorming for the sake of the brainstorming itself, to try to figure what our future could lead by thinking the same way BW probably do: "Ok, I do want to fix the concealment spec, but I don't want to increase it's damage... so what can I do?"

I think it's more sane than raging around, in every thread, and be aggressive against people that don't agree with you

[warultima]

blah blah snip snip

 

That best you can come up with?

Good job ignoring all the suggestion like how BW is... how fitful for a clueless fanboi.

 

Apparently you cant even read as I have already mentioned in my previous post that Sins super amazing duper burst does take setup (I even color coded it for people like you that thats clueless and biased and cannot read) they are also given the tools to help them setup (also color coded for lol people like yourself).

 

You can keep on defending how Sins are not FotM and how good BW is at balancing this game, we all know where you are coming from and where this game is at rightnow. I know I know as long as operatives can never be on par with Sin then everything is fine you can only have 1 single bestest stealther class in this game ofc it has to be Assassins.

 

When you learned how to read properly, maybe you can come up with some real ideas of fixing operative. And hopefully by then you will know how stupid you sound when you try to convince us how "Operative are fked mentally/phycologically/physcially/technically as it is, just learn to live with it, Sins can use some more buffs tho".

Edited October 11, 2012 by warultima

[Moonheart_S]

LOOOOOOLLLL

 

But War, you are the one that cannot read!

I've just explained you why all your suggestions and arguments are pointless because the problem is not about the amount of damage, but how we deal it.

 

Assassins requiers setup, which give the opponent opportunity to try to do something against them even without using long-cooldown abilties that are not always available.

This is the important point: The opponent can do something, can retaliate, can... play before he dies.

 

Our base mechanic is a failure from Bioware (*rolleyes* and you call me a fanboy... I'm the first one to say when Bioware mess up...) because it allows us to strike without warning, then chain attacks while the opponent is powerless, the whole in the form of a burst.

It means that we can deal 15k of damage without any possibility for the opponent have a chance to try anything. They don't see us coming, then spend 4 GCD on the ground while we destroy their HP.

 

People hate control and Bioware gave us the worst from of control: control that you can't see coming, that chains together, and that doesn't even slow the damage we are doing.

That's why it got nerfed when the dev woke up. That's why, also, we won't get any more damage -in any form, even more energy- as long this mechanics will exist.

 

Almost all your suggestions are about giving the spec more damage or control, War. When this is what all people around us don't want us to have. So yes, I ignore them. They are never going to happen, so that would be a waste of time to speak about them.

 

As long you don't understand this point. The point that our very base mechanic is an utter failure in term of global gameplay and prevent us to be fixed by more energy or damage... your "suggestions" will be pointless.

What we need, is a way for us to do... something else than trying to assassinate people by backstabs. Have another role on the battlefield.

 

And this is what this thread is speaking about.

I suggested assist dps. Feel free to suggest something else... but changes that don't replace our role and just gives us more power....is just useless and pointless talk, a dream you have and that don't adequate with the reality.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[snave]

First off, your opinion on design ethic is not fact. It's your opinion.

 

The whole argument about up front damage vs setup damage holds no weight when viewed properly. Being able to consistently pump out 6K+ hits is always more favourable that one 4k hit every 90 seconds. Please compare similar things rather than stating your opinion as fact (again)

 

You can increase our damage easily without disrupting our up front balance. I've stated (to you directly) numerous times that increasing our DOT damage or rifle shot damage would go a long way in helping our sustained damage. I personally dislike your idea of "assist dps", mainly because it's a terrible idea. There's so much wrong with your concept I can't even bother to begin to go into it.

 

There are many possibilities listed here to fix the class, you simply not liking them doesn't make them invalid. From reading your posts you clearly don't have a great grasp of the game and I preferred it if you stuck to your promise of not rambling on these forums any more.

[warultima]

First off, your opinion on design ethic is not fact. It's your opinion.

 

The whole argument about up front damage vs setup damage holds no weight when viewed properly. Being able to consistently pump out 6K+ hits is always more favourable that one 4k hit every 90 seconds. Please compare similar things rather than stating your opinion as fact (again)

 

You can increase our damage easily without disrupting our up front balance. I've stated (to you directly) numerous times that increasing our DOT damage or rifle shot damage would go a long way in helping our sustained damage. I personally dislike your idea of "assist dps", mainly because it's a terrible idea. There's so much wrong with your concept I can't even bother to begin to go into it.

 

There are many possibilities listed here to fix the class, you simply not liking them doesn't make them invalid. From reading your posts you clearly don't have a great grasp of the game and I preferred it if you stuck to your promise of not rambling on these forums any more.

 

Yea I too feel ridiculous that he wants to make operatives "assist dps" so all the Sin/Mara/Jugg/Sniper/PT out there can play fine along, but operative should auto suck when someone isnt holding your hand? So there should only be 1 "real" stealth class, the almighty Assassin, that should ever be the only viable stealther class when there's no one changing your diapers.

 

Hes so afraid that operative could come near Assassin his fotm main ofc. I said as well in the suggestion auto attack returning energy what ShadowSin already has but he said something roflnoobie like "no regen energy will increase your damage". Since he clearly commented on how all the ideas I came up would increase our burst which isnt true (yea I know he cannot read which is fairly obvious). So I also said shield probe could use a 6 second 25% reduction (again what Sin already has only Sin version is auto reset CD and if you know how to play Deception assassin it can be kept up almost all the time everytime entering combat) but again he said this would also increase our dps so NO WAIII (yea I know very stupid of him). He will pull something outta his lolass like "if we give operative 25% DR like deception sin they are no longer easy kill to my sin, so he will end up doing more damage, CANT let that happen!!11one"

 

I laugh everytime he thinks that whatever he "feel" is how BW is intended to do it (I bet it includes Sin should be the only viable stealth class to eh).

 

The original design of operative is very close to WoW's Rogue, control with great damage but really only shines in 1v1. Yet we dont even have the burst to finish someone off even if we let our energy drop to the minimum regen (oh yea fyi in this case Sin regen force 400% times faster as well). While Deception was made with lower burst because they have so much more utilities only mentally ill people would deny this.

 

Now we get deception bursting and sustaining higher dps while dont really need to rely on stealth openings while have much much much much more utilities and survival and control than operative, yet you still come in and argued that "operatives should be unviable pos like they are rightnow, when there's no big brother with you, but Sin is different tho, they are fotm so its OK Sin should be completely viable in all trees all specs because Sin is not operative". (Literally speaking in moonie's logic.)

Edited October 12, 2012 by warultima

[Moonheart_S]

There is nothing that you pretend me have said or think that is true, War, and anyone that will read my post carefuly will see it. If you cannot talk without twisting people words, without spitting your hatred. Then you're not even worth a detailed answer.

 

I'll just say a little thing as a proof you're becoming ridiculous: My operative IS my main, sorry to tell you.

So your little accusations are just funny and making you look as a fool.

 

The whole argument about up front damage vs setup damage holds no weight when viewed properly. Being able to consistently pump out 6K+ hits is always more favourable that one 4k hit every 90 seconds. Please compare similar things rather than stating your opinion as fact (again)

 

I compare similar things, Snave. Just things with a larger scope.

 

Sin opening combo from stealth : 12k, without control

Op opening combo from stealth : 12k, keeping the opponent stun all the time

 

While the rest of the fight will show that Sins outperform us, you have to account the opposing players feelings: They are caught by surprise, and then stroke by our opening combo as they were mere rag dolls, without being able to do anything.

This is a kind of things that usualy players HATE.

 

They hated it in DAOC, they hated it in WoW, they hated it in every *********** MMOG where such combo was possible

"Assassination combos", i.e. combos that aim to kill you before you can react, will they succeed or not, are just strongly disliked (euphemism) by the victims much more than straight out brutal strikes with even higher dps.

 

You can say it's just my opinion, but I'll invite you to look at every forum of every MMOG including assassination combo and look at the reactions of players: they are massively negative, even if the combo itself is prooved to be not as efficient in overall dps by math, screens and such...

 

This is were the nerf bat hits. As much as players can strongly dislike our assassination combo, they will be able to shallow it if its damage is low enough so they will have several GCD of fights after it where they can fight back.

They won't shallow it at all if we ever succeed to kill them in the 5 first GCDs. And thus, it can explain why Bioware is reluctant to do anything that raise our DPS.

 

What's the purpose to make some players (us, operatives) happy in a way that make others (them, non-operatives) crying?

While you will probably say "But Maras....", I'll just tell you that's not because Bioware fails on something it is unable to see bad ideas everywhere else.

 

I've stated (to you directly) numerous times that increasing our DOT damage or rifle shot damage would go a long way in helping our sustained damage.[/Quote]

 

Alas, it would help our opening combo as well, which is imho unlikely to ever happen, for the aforementioned reason.

 

I personally dislike your idea of "assist dps", mainly because it's a terrible idea. There's so much wrong with your concept I can't even bother to begin to go into it.

 

Well, as I said, the thread is here so people could propose their own ideas. I just don't have any better one yet.

 

I strongly believe that no change that increase the damage we can do in our opening combo will ever happen.

Within this paradigm, I'm trying to figure the what Bioware could do instead... would we like it or not.

 

There are many possibilities listed here to fix the class, you simply not liking them doesn't make them invalid.

 

I like them. I like them a lot. But I just believe they will never happen.

The main difference between you and I is I don't spend much time to think to things I'd like. I rather perfer to spend time to think to things that are likely to happen.

 

Bioware had reasons to nerf your damage, even if we don't understand them or don't agree with them.

Those reasons are not going to vanish suddently because you cry on a board they don't even appear to read.

 

That simple logic shows that it is very unlikely to see any fix of the concealment spec that takes the form of more damage.

You are free to spend a lot of time to talk about it, hope about it... my guess is you'll spend also lots of time to cry about it in the next patch, and in the next one, and in the next one.

 

I'll prefer to not spoil my fun hoping for something like that only to be disappointed. I'd prefer to concentrate about the things that can happen, and, if Bioware ask feedback again, lobby for the best of them instead of push again something that I strongly believe they won't accept at all.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[Masarko]

They can give Operatives like their brother Snipers and excecute skill.

 

also remake hidden strike to be used out stealth if specced into it with a lets say 50 sec cd, and cd refreshes when entering stealth.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Masarko

[Ahebish]

Operative is a support class. Even as DPS spec, they have medium armor and off-heals, which pretty much negates them from ever being front-liners. PvP in this game is not balanced around 1vs1 scenarios, and Concealment Operative plays very well in a support role.

 

You should be selecting targets already engaged with a Powertech or Juggernaut. A Sage dangling helplessly in the air under the power of Force Choke is a tasty treat for a Concealment Operative. Perform your opener from stealth, smack them around a bit, then re-stealth and move on. The recent changes to Concealment in 1.4 have made this much easier, and it's how the spec is meant to be played.

 

There are a variety of escape tools available if you get held out of stealth for too long.

 

So just to clarify what this person said:

 

We are NOT designed to kill anything.

 

We are NOT designed to heal anything.

 

We are NOT supposed to do anything other than take a few pot shots and then restealth.

 

Meanwhile Assassins/Shadows score 15000-20000 damage in 3 hits but that's not overpowered at all?

 

Mean while every other DPS class in the game is designed to kill and especially so in 1v1 situations.

 

But concealment operatives are NOT designed with this purpose.

 

What's my incentive to play the spec at all?

 

If by your logic we are designed to be useless while everyone else does the heavy lifting... why not just delete the class?

[Ahebish]

They can give Operatives like their brother Snipers and excecute skill.

 

also remake hidden strike to be used out stealth if specced into it with a lets say 50 sec cd, and cd refreshes when entering stealth.

 

Execute has some merit

 

But I'd rather them give us our damage numbers back from pre 1.2

 

I'd rather NOT be able to use HS other than stealth

 

I'd rather have my 9 sec CD on BS back.

 

I'd rather them get rid of the sneak gap closer everyone asked for that people ARE STILL asking for a gap closer.

 

Get off the gap closer kick already it will never happen.

 

They threw us a bone but we want the entire carcass.

 

Keep it simple get rid of the sneak gap closer it was never needed to begin with... nor is it any more useful now that we have it than it was when we didn't.

 

Some people amaze me by their lack of logical thinking.

 

I realize some people on here didn't start the game in beta as concealment like I did... but of the suggestions I read they are made by people who either don't remember or have little to no experience with concealments and what they used to do before we got nerf'd 6 *********** times in a row.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Ahebish

[Masarko]

Execute has some merit

 

But I'd rather them give us our damage numbers back from pre 1.2

 

I'd rather NOT be able to use HS other than stealth

 

I'd rather have my 9 sec CD on BS back.

 

I'd rather them get rid of the sneak gap closer everyone asked for that people ARE STILL asking for a gap closer.

 

Get off the gap closer kick already it will never happen.

 

They threw us a bone but we want the entire carcass.

 

Keep it simple get rid of the sneak gap closer it was never needed to begin with... nor is it any more useful now that we have it than it was when we didn't.

 

Some people amaze me by their lack of logical thinking.

 

I realize some people on here didn't start the game in beta as concealment like I did... but of the suggestions I read they are made by people who either don't remember or have little to no experience with concealments and what they used to do before we got nerf'd 6 *********** times in a row.

 

We all know they wont give us back our damage, 1.4 is the only patch that didnt affect us negativly (Damage and healing wise, not like speed boost is much of a help anyway)

 

Trust ive been there, ive landed 7k+ Hidden strikes before, but we all know thats never going to happen ever again.

 

You know if you dont crit on your HS and OR BS youre ****ed and might aswell go stealth again

[CaptainApop]

• Reduce cd on backstab to reduce clunkiness of the rotation. Scale damage down if BW really feels it's necessary. They probably would.
   
  
• Dramatically reduce cooldown on vanish ( maybe 30 seconds or so - only for concealment) while scaling hidden strike down appropriately. Should probably reduce effectiveness of the" super-sneak" effect as well in this case.
   
  
• Change jarring strike to some other effect (maybe another dot? Let it stack twice for double tapping). Just too many knock-downs/stuns otherwise. Game has too many as it is.
   
  
• Roll back "ghost", it's not necessary anymore with a short cd vanish and it's a dumb ability anyway.
   
  
• Allow explosive probe castable from stealth as well as cover. Increase cooldown maybe? Idea was instead of hidden strike being the rarely cast alpha pwn explosive probe- hidden would be the alpha. Target gets a warning from the probe so they have a chance to react and so BW can justify the bigger numbers.
  
• If it's really needed bake jarring strikes knockdown into this.
  

 

 

Make stealth beer for concealment operatives ( cause of and solution to all problems). Stealth is a lot easier to see in this game than others so that creates an interesting dynamic IF vanish is on a short cooldown.

Basically if it's easy to stop and a pain to get back into, it sucks for the operative. If it's hard to spot and let's the operative **** people it's bad for everyone else.

If it's not impossible to spot with rotation/scanning, prevents a hidden strike but doesn't mean the operative loses. Then it brings some spatial awareness into it.

 

Damage is nice but a 2min/3min I-WIN button is what operatives HAD and the framework supporting it doesn't support anything else.

Edited October 24, 2012 by CaptainApop

[Doffers]

I agree with moon.

 

Its the psychological effect on players.

 

But more importantly, biowares here for money. The more subscribers the more success. Its all business driven.

 

If they made some changes to op that made us guys happy but the other classes pissed off, then it would be considered an idiotic business move. Its like someone offering you x money or xxxxxxx money. What would you pick.

[Ahebish]

• Reduce cd on backstab to reduce clunkiness of the rotation. Scale damage down if BW really feels it's necessary. They probably would.
   
  
• Dramatically reduce cooldown on vanish ( maybe 30 seconds or so - only for concealment) while scaling hidden strike down appropriately. Should probably reduce effectiveness of the" super-sneak" effect as well in this case.
   
  
• Change jarring strike to some other effect (maybe another dot? Let it stack twice for double tapping). Just too many knock-downs/stuns otherwise. Game has too many as it is.
   
  
• Roll back "ghost", it's not necessary anymore with a short cd vanish and it's a dumb ability anyway.
   
  
• Allow explosive probe castable from stealth as well as cover. Increase cooldown maybe? Idea was instead of hidden strike being the rarely cast alpha pwn explosive probe- hidden would be the alpha. Target gets a warning from the probe so they have a chance to react and so BW can justify the bigger numbers.
  
• If it's really needed bake jarring strikes knockdown into this.
  

 

 

Make stealth beer for concealment operatives ( cause of and solution to all problems). Stealth is a lot easier to see in this game than others so that creates an interesting dynamic IF vanish is on a short cooldown.

Basically if it's easy to stop and a pain to get back into, it sucks for the operative. If it's hard to spot and let's the operative **** people it's bad for everyone else.

If it's not impossible to spot with rotation/scanning, prevents a hidden strike but doesn't mean the operative loses. Then it brings some spatial awareness into it.

 

Damage is nice but a 2min/3min I-WIN button is what operatives HAD and the framework supporting it doesn't support anything else.

 

I sincerely appreciate you are being objective... But here's what you are asking for:

 

The same thing I want, but you are willing to take ANOTHER damage nerf why? 1 step forward for 2 steps back is NOT a compromise we need to take at this point. We are already screwed and EVERYONE knows it. There litterally is not much more they can do to this class without deleting it next.

 

1. Nerf HS again? seriously? It was nerf'd 3 times in a row already.

 

2. Nerf backstab damage for the sake of a 9 second CD we all agree we want. They might as well leave the 12 second CD and call it day becuase this suggestion isn't going to fix the lack of damage it's unanimously agreed we lack.

 

3. Don't forget they also nerf'd Acid blade

 

4. Don't forget they already nerf'd Jarring strike once.

 

5. Don't forget they also nerf'd Laceration

 

6. Don't forget they also nerf'd Laceration procs

 

7. Don't forget they also nerf'd stealth by granting uncleansables to classes that shouldn't have them to begin with. Example: Jugs, Sorcs, Marauders (our cleanse is broken when used against Marauder Annihilation spec) This one honestly doesn't bother me to much.

 

8. Don't forget our crit chance is broken as well which I have confirmed through DPS parsing as well as testing rigorously.

 

9. Don't forget they nerf'd auto-crit on HS already.

 

10. Don't forget they nerf'd set bonus' from PVE gear with the introduction of new mods and armor. Specifically for newer players which I warned would happen... but what do I know.

 

11. Don't forget our class is the ONLY class in the game with worthless PVP set bonus' And I'm including Snipers in this as well.

 

12. Don't forget they nerf'd Relics which our class relied on for burst damage. (granted this effected all classes but ours was the one that took the biggest hit from it)

 

13. We ARE single handily the ONLY class in the game who has been nerf'd more times than ALL OTHER classes combined. Is it unreasonable for us to ask BW to throw us a bone?

 

14. Here's something that is totaly unfair: Why is it Assassins/Shadows get force shroud that provides 100% resistance to "Force AND Tech" damage types while we only get evasion that provides defense against melee/ranged (kinetic/energy based damage) Which MOST classes in this game do not use except our class and is used very little by BH's/Troopers???

 

I have no comment on your other suggestions: But I feel they aren't needed at all if they revert us back to pre 1.2 numbers. And get rid of our sneak gap closer I don't have any justification for the need with our damage being what it was in pre 1.2.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Ahebish

[Ahebish]

Despite everything I said in my previous post: The new fad in PVP now is smash Jugs are overpowered. BW and I suprisingly are in agreement here: They were ALWAYS overpowered ever since launch.

 

Now all of the sudden everyone is wigging balls about it because they hit 6-7k crits? Really? 1 month after launch people were hitting 9k crits on smash jugs but noone said it was overpowered then because ALL the focus was on us.

 

I find people are blatantly stupid when it comes to balance in this game and there are some people who just need not ever post anything about what they feel is balanced.

 

I think BW needs to learn to decipher the idiots from people who are fair and willing to admit there is a problem.

 

I've been warned/flamed/banned countless times for pointing out the hypocrisy of other classes in this game on "their" forums... but every one of them were allowed to come here and piss and whine in our forums and ultimately got our class screwed as a result.

 

I have fought tooth and nail with BW, Mods and the community about these nerf's since day one... noone supported me... and I saw this coming within the first month of launch that the class was going to be overnerf'd because of idiots that wouldn't know what balance if it bit them in the ***. Now everything everyone has been saying now is everything I said would happen last January/February.

 

Note to the person in my previous post I do NOT include you in this rant... because you at least are being objective but I think you are bending over to much to ask for things that won't change the situation in my opinion.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Ahebish

[TheronFett]

So just to clarify what this person said:

 

We are NOT designed to kill anything.

You must be doing it wrong.

 

We are NOT designed to heal anything.

See above.

 

We are NOT supposed to do anything other than take a few pot shots and then restealth.

You've been a loud proponent (for a long time) of rolling back Operative to pre 1.2 levels of owning everything from stealth. L2P?

 

Meanwhile Assassins/Shadows score 15000-20000 damage in 3 hits but that's not overpowered at all?

Sounds like those pesky 31/31/31 specs.

 

Mean while every other DPS class in the game is designed to kill and especially so in 1v1 situations.

Concealment is still one of the best 1vs1 specs in the game.

 

But concealment operatives are NOT designed with this purpose.

Eh?

 

What's my incentive to play the spec at all?

Apparently you should just roll an easier class, like derpasmash Juggernaut.

 

If by your logic we are designed to be useless while everyone else does the heavy lifting... why not just delete the class?

See above.

[aztecknight]

Honestly playing concealment op in pvp is a blast because of the challenge. I'm very comfortable in any one on one fight because i know i can control my opponent easily. The fights that I have to avoid are ones in a pack where there's a lot going on. In these types of battles I seek out the healers and take them down fast. This is the role in pvp for this class spec. What's interesting about it is the numbers don't always reflect the results, meaning my damage and kill totals are sometimes less than they were pre 1.2, but my team usually wins the match. Ops are built for one on one combat. We should one any class 1v1 because we have both the initiative and the control to own any other class. I agree with Moon, we should quit worrying about EA/Bioware making changes to anything cause they aren't going to fix anything. We should focus on what we can do to work within the rules and fix the class ourselves.

 

My 2 cents, be the lurker class that takes down healers and ranged dps, they tend to be isolated and we can reach them with more ease than any other class. If you can do that with consistancy your team should be gratefull.

[CaptainApop]

I have no comment on your other suggestions: But I feel they aren't needed at all if they revert us back to pre 1.2 numbers. And get rid of our sneak gap closer I don't have any justification for the need with our damage being what it was in pre 1.2.

 

See, this is why there isn't much point discussing anything with you. You just want pre-1.2 gibbing back. You won't get it. Ops were ridiculous near launch. Warriors being ridiculous now does not mean you "deserve" to be broken again.

 

My thoughts were concealment deserves a small-scale redesign in light of being nerfed consistently since launch. If only for the sake of not always being nerfed again and again. Also to differentiate them from assasins on a more fundamental level.

Edited November 5, 2012 by CaptainApop

[snave]

My 2 cents, be the lurker class that takes down healers and ranged dps, they tend to be isolated and we can reach them with more ease than any other class. If you can do that with consistancy your team should be gratefull.

 

My 2 cents. If you're playing against rated teams who leave their healers isolated then they're terrible and you should win regardless of what classes you bring. No decent team leaves their healers isolated. Not even half decent teams do that.

 

Here's a hypothetical situation for you. If 6k+ aoe smashes are ok why can't we have 6k hidden strikes? It's still less damage and bioware seem happy to monitor the situation with maras / juggs.

 

Balance in pvp is a joke, everyone knows it and saying anything different just shows either your lack of experience, lack of decent opponents or lack of eyes.