DPS Assassin vs. DPS Scoundrel (PVP)?

[Stenrik]

Hi all,

 

I have a lvl 29 assassin alt, leveling as deception through warzones.

I am loving it so far. I feel much stronger than I did when PVPing on my scrapper scoundrel, and the playstyle is equally fun. (However, my scoundrel was my first character, so maybe I just "L2P'd" since then?) Still, the Assassin's resource system feels more forgiving and I seem to be critting for a lot more in warzones. Plus, even though I'm a clothie, I don't feel much squishier than the scoundrel. The utility of force speed and overload is really nice, not to mention having a bigger range on my CC. The playstyle seems pretty similar for the most part, with the exception of the scoundrel's longer range (albeit weaker) attacks.

 

So... I'm trying to decide whether to take my assassin to 50, or use the time to gear out my old scoundrel for PVP dps. According to the scoundrel forum, "dps assassins are better in every way". But that kind of "grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side" attitude seems common on class forums, so I thought I'd ask here: Do you guys agree with them? What are assassins inferior at?

 

Thanks.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Stenrik

[pqgarvis]

When played right Scoundrels are much more fun. They are actually the most fun in Hutt Ball even though we lack utility of the Assassin.

 

I have both a 95ish valor level Assassin and Scoundrel, and hands down Scoundrel is more fun. Assassin has more utility from a group standpoint but boring to play, especially if you spec Darkness.

 

Scoundrel requires more skill to be effective than an Assassin, since you stated that you already played a Scoundrel and had issues you might want to choose an Assassin.

[RankorSSGS]

When played right Scoundrels are much more fun. They are actually the most fun in Hutt Ball even though we lack utility of the Assassin.

 

I have both a 95ish valor level Assassin and Scoundrel, and hands down Scoundrel is more fun. Assassin has more utility from a group standpoint but boring to play, especially if you spec Darkness.

 

Scoundrel requires more skill to be effective than an Assassin, since you stated that you already played a Scoundrel and had issues you might want to choose an Assassin.

 

All of that is opinion, not fact. I'm also assuming you are referring to darkness assassins for the most part, which is understandable. IMO, the only specs that you can compare between scoundrels and assassins is their middle dps tree, because of all 6 trees, only those 2 are similar enough to make valid comparisons. You cannot compare tanking to healing, etc. AS for the middle trees, they are both hard hitting, bursty, pop in, kill, and pop out kind of trees. So I will compare these two trees. my knowledge of Deception is extensive having levelled both a shadow and assassin with it, and done extensive pvp with it. I am less knowledgeable about the scoundrels tree, having not played it all the way to the top myself, but over the course of my time in this game, I have done a fair amount of research into it, in guides, videos, and anything else I can find. So take what you will.

 

Probably the largest difference between the trees is the setup for their respective burst. Assassins require some setup, via building of Voltaic stacks, and also static charge stacks. You do not necessarily need to build them, but you will hit the hardest if you do. The downside of course is people will see you winding up, and my shut you down if they can, in which case you are screwed. I personally compromise, I always build my voltaic stacks, because they are guaranteed to appear whenever I use voltaic slash. Static charges are less reliable (my main complaint about the spec) and thus, I do not always build them up, usually ill use discharge with only 3-4. If I know I'm facing a less skilled player, who doesn't understand what's about to hit him, then I will take the time to build them up before unleashing hell. Scoundrels are not so much like this. You can instantly start with your out of stealth opener, and start rolling with your rotation. However, on the flip side, your rotation now depends on upper hand to actually work well. Assassins rely on procs to setup, scoundrels rely on them to burst, so if that 50% chance on flying fists is unkind to you, you may end up in some trouble. But if all goes well, the potential is there for hard hitting burst, with basically no set up. Also note that assassins have a proper finishing move, while scoundrels do not.

 

In terms of survivability, scoundrels used to come out ahead pre 1.4 due to the small HoT, and medium armor. But with the changes to deception made in 1.4, this may no longer be the case.

 

In terms of how deadly the burst actually is, based off of what I have seen, assassins may be able to put up SLIGHTLY bigger numbers if they get all setup. I see BiS assassins hitting for typically 5-6k on their big hits. BiS scoundrels tend to hit for 3-4k, with 5-6k appearing every now and then. Admittedly, I have seen far more assassin footage than scoundrel, so take that with a pinch of salt. The advantage of scoundrels of course, is that they will pull out more of these hits than assassins will. Assassins big hits are shock, discharge, and maul. Scoundrels have shoot first, back blast, sucker punch, pistol whip, sabotage charge, quick shot, which are not as big, but there is more of them. Also, scoundrels will have a DoT running this entire time, while assassins will not, unless they take the time to cast a crushing darkness.

 

Assassins get a 4 second mez, which has an infinite amount of uses, and they can also protect teammates with taunts, even as a full dps spec. Scoundrels cannot do this, but instead they can run around a corner, and heal themselves right back to full, or offheal teammates, and then jump right back in. I've seen dps geared scoundrels get 4k heals with their underworld medicine, not specced into healing at all.

 

So that's what I've gathered, as I said, my scoundrel information is limited, and not firsthand, so it may not be all accurate. Having said all this, I myself personally find the assassin more fun to play.

[Minrath]

Hi all,

 

I have a lvl 29 assassin alt, leveling as deception through warzones.

I am loving it so far. I feel much stronger than I did when PVPing on my scrapper scoundrel, and the playstyle is equally fun. (However, my scoundrel was my first character, so maybe I just "L2P'd" since then?) Still, the Assassin's resource system feels more forgiving and I seem to be critting for a lot more in warzones. Plus, even though I'm a clothie, I don't feel much squishier than the scoundrel. The utility of force speed and overload is really nice, not to mention having a bigger range on my CC. The playstyle seems pretty similar for the most part, with the exception of the scoundrel's longer range (albeit weaker) attacks.

 

So... I'm trying to decide whether to take my assassin to 50, or use the time to gear out my old scoundrel for PVP dps. According to the scoundrel forum, "dps assassins are better in every way". But that kind of "grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side" attitude seems common on class forums, so I thought I'd ask here: Do you guys agree with them? What are assassins inferior at?

 

Thanks.

 

L2P has nothing to do with it.My first was a sith assassin, me and a friend leveled up 2 at the same time.After pvping a bit with them and seeing their side at 50 we decided to level up operatives.In fact I have now played with each class to see their basic abilitys and anything with range trumps anything with melee if you can kite.As for a scoundrel tho,Hands down much better at lower gear levels.Once you got your gear skill dont matter.

[pqgarvis]

All of that is opinion, not fact. I'm also assuming you are referring to darkness assassins for the most part, which is understandable. IMO, the only specs that you can compare between scoundrels and assassins is their middle dps tree, because of all 6 trees, only those 2 are similar enough to make valid comparisons. You cannot compare tanking to healing, etc. AS for the middle trees, they are both hard hitting, bursty, pop in, kill, and pop out kind of trees. So I will compare these two trees. my knowledge of Deception is extensive having levelled both a shadow and assassin with it, and done extensive pvp with it. I am less knowledgeable about the scoundrels tree, having not played it all the way to the top myself, but over the course of my time in this game, I have done a fair amount of research into it, in guides, videos, and anything else I can find. So take what you will.

 

Probably the largest difference between the trees is the setup for their respective burst. Assassins require some setup, via building of Voltaic stacks, and also static charge stacks. You do not necessarily need to build them, but you will hit the hardest if you do. The downside of course is people will see you winding up, and my shut you down if they can, in which case you are screwed. I personally compromise, I always build my voltaic stacks, because they are guaranteed to appear whenever I use voltaic slash. Static charges are less reliable (my main complaint about the spec) and thus, I do not always build them up, usually ill use discharge with only 3-4. If I know I'm facing a less skilled player, who doesn't understand what's about to hit him, then I will take the time to build them up before unleashing hell. Scoundrels are not so much like this. You can instantly start with your out of stealth opener, and start rolling with your rotation. However, on the flip side, your rotation now depends on upper hand to actually work well. Assassins rely on procs to setup, scoundrels rely on them to burst, so if that 50% chance on flying fists is unkind to you, you may end up in some trouble. But if all goes well, the potential is there for hard hitting burst, with basically no set up. Also note that assassins have a proper finishing move, while scoundrels do not.

 

In terms of survivability, scoundrels used to come out ahead pre 1.4 due to the small HoT, and medium armor. But with the changes to deception made in 1.4, this may no longer be the case.

 

In terms of how deadly the burst actually is, based off of what I have seen, assassins may be able to put up SLIGHTLY bigger numbers if they get all setup. I see BiS assassins hitting for typically 5-6k on their big hits. BiS scoundrels tend to hit for 3-4k, with 5-6k appearing every now and then. Admittedly, I have seen far more assassin footage than scoundrel, so take that with a pinch of salt. The advantage of scoundrels of course, is that they will pull out more of these hits than assassins will. Assassins big hits are shock, discharge, and maul. Scoundrels have shoot first, back blast, sucker punch, pistol whip, sabotage charge, quick shot, which are not as big, but there is more of them. Also, scoundrels will have a DoT running this entire time, while assassins will not, unless they take the time to cast a crushing darkness.

 

Assassins get a 4 second mez, which has an infinite amount of uses, and they can also protect teammates with taunts, even as a full dps spec. Scoundrels cannot do this, but instead they can run around a corner, and heal themselves right back to full, or offheal teammates, and then jump right back in. I've seen dps geared scoundrels get 4k heals with their underworld medicine, not specced into healing at all.

 

So that's what I've gathered, as I said, my scoundrel information is limited, and not firsthand, so it may not be all accurate. Having said all this, I myself personally find the assassin more fun to play.

 

The OP is looking for opinion, what could be fact about player preference? I gave him my opinion, which should be valued pretty high, since I have played both adeptly.

 

Scoundrel has higher skill cap period. For those looking to master a simpler tool go Assassin. At no point did I compare them from a skill tree perspective, I did compare them in a general sense from a fun/skill perspective.

[Ismercu]

I have both at 50 and I favor operative more. Operative rotation is faster/easier in and out styled focused more towards Stealth, before 1.4 Id say Operative rotation would be more rewarding(More DPS and easier) aswell but after 1.4 I hear Maul hitting for 7k which takes 2-3 abilities for operative to produce.

[Minrath]

I have both at 50 and I favor operative more. Operative rotation is faster/easier in and out styled focused more towards Stealth, before 1.4 Id say Operative rotation would be more rewarding(More DPS and easier) aswell but after 1.4 I hear Maul hitting for 7k which takes 2-3 abilities for operative to produce.

 

Not true those numbers are rare on a sin, In fact the only saber swinger thats on par are warriors really.Ranged has the obvious advantage, I cant count the times I killed ppl in the air and once targeted its pretty much a death sentance, they cant escape the range like they can the melee, anything using melee is fodder for the gun.

 

At 32 me and a friend took down a full WH geared jedi, we simply ignored his pet and kited him until he died.We are now working on the rebel counterpart to our ops just to see if their is a difference and the rebel ones are much better.Even still though after playing commandos, bh's, snipers and gunslingers, anything with a gun is much more forgiving at lower gear levels and are so OP and unbalanced it isnt funny.

 

Assassins/sages do not have the survivability that stealthers in other games do, in other games stealthers do mad damage, are pure glass tigers, thats why they work, in swtor, sins and such are simply fodder for a cannon, the stealth is too easy to be seen, i have had ppl see me and follow me in stealth and its rare to get the opening on a experienced player, yet you dont do any serious damage to them and any one with brains will just kite you laughing.And thats only IF you somehow dont end up stunlocked and cc'd watching your life bar hit 0 from all those ranged who now decided you are a free kill.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Minrath

[warultima]

I have an operative at optimized WH yea you are talking about 920 bonus tech damage here w/ 1268 expertise.

And my hidden strike crits for 5.5k on my guildie wearing 0 expertise 21% damage reduction(for testing purpose)

And I had our tankasin in rWZ (also full WH optimized power/surge stacked) to respec full deception, and I got on my sorc and put on full campaing pve gear with 0 expertise, and maul crits routinely for 7.2k maxxed around 7.8k.

 

Operative's "most powerful attack" that requires opening from stealth as a one shot deal is about 28% "weaker" than fully buffed Maul that can be used once every 9 second (actually without duplicity proc we still managed to average 5250 crit on mauls).

 

Operative plays completely different than deception sin as well. If you think Deception Sin has no "survivability" you have never played "Concealment" operative.

 

Basically concealment if caught out of stealth (there's no 25% DR for them neither, no force speed, no force shroud, no blackout with 2nd 6sec of 25% DR, no low slash and so on) they survive as well as a Sorc with no bubble, no force speed, no knockback, no roots, and no self heal. Heck operative is also the only melee class in THE ENTIRE GAME that has no access to a 30% aoe damage reduction talent at all.

 

I dont even know why there's a thread of the 2 rightnow because the 2 AC isnt even close. 1.4 deception will out-burst (even tho it takes sometime to setup) out-sustain DPS, out-live, and out-run operative as well as OUT-UTILITY the operative for their team. It's simple as that.

 

Only thing operative has over Sin is the closer feeling of a "Rogue" playstyle in wow, WITHOUT the fearsome burst and control and the mobility like sprint and shadowstep and terrible resource system(deception has more CC and better burst without needing stealth really has better mobility and a typical easy to play linear resource system).

Edited October 13, 2012 by warultima