Musings from a raider (Balance)

[CpnWiggler]

Hello, I am Wiggler from The Bastion who occasionally runs balance spec. I have a few comments I wanted to share.

 

Disclaimer: deals with end-game operation standards and uses.

 

 

 

 

BUILD

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601bcZfZfMfRr0krfz.2

 

 

 

Regarding Project-less:

 

I think I can do more damage "straight up" in my rotation without using project. But I always seem to find myself moving to avoid some sort of mechanic, or AoE, or what have you.

 

This is where I find Twin Disciples comes in handy. In any instance where there is movement, down time, or a lull in combat, a good Shadow can boost his dps by proactively using shock to boost his double strike damage by a fair amount. Or his burst damage on essential targets.

 

For example: Kephess HM, I can use project on the 3rd calibrating droid just before he goes down for a bonus melee damage buff, and have it for near the life of the pesky bomber with no impact to force.

 

After the bomber is down, I can use project, sever force, and breach on the Walker before it becomes susceptible to damage for added burst during that window of opportunity. There are numerous others in this fight alone, so I will stop listing movement mechanics for bosses lawl.

 

For a DPS build, Twin Disciples is a practical and useful 2-point talent. More importantly, what can you get for those two points that's better?

 

 

Regarding Containment:

 

Remember that this is a true Operation build. I cannot think of many instances aside from helping mitigate damage from adds where this instant CC is practical. This is what the second tank is generally designed for in raids, and the roll of Balance shadows is always... do moar dmagaege!1

 

Since this is an Ops build, and Containment truly has little impact on the course of most boss fights, you can drop those points and instead grab 2% DR from Jedi Resistance without change to your chosen role as a dps, and instead increase your help to the raid with damage reduction.

 

In a fight such as Kephess, I can generally expect to take at least 3x my total HP in damage over the course of a fight. I feel the points are better applied here.

 

 

Regarding the "Extra ten":

Expertise

vs

Shadowy Veil

vs

Shadow's Respite

 

This is where I tend to take the most flak in my build from other players. Why Shadow's Respite of all things?

 

The reason I run with Shadow's Respite is rather simple, I start every boss fight from Stealth.

1. I have increased force out of the gate, and with it I can make use of a project for a 20 sec melee damage buff and after applying my DoTs I am still near the force cap and ready to launch into my rotation.
   
2. With a 2 minute cool down on Force Cloak, if done early I can do this 3 more times throughout a 6-minute boss fight.
   

 

Let's look at the other options.

 

Expertise: With two points, I can expect between a 2-4 TOTAL dps increase over a fight. In a 6 minute fight, I can generally expect an extra 720-1440 damage (usually closer to the high-end). I also like to think of running without this particular talent as incentive to hit a GCD earlier, transition to a fight a step quicker, or reapply a dot a moment earlier. And I have just succeeded in passing the damage from this talent OVER THE COURSE OF THE FIGHT.

Compared to the damage increase from Shadow's Respite, and the challenge of planning burst potential from Force Regen, I think the talent severely outclasses Expertise.

 

Shadowy Veil: If I wanted to focus on taking less damage, I would give this ability serious thought. However considering that Shadow's Respite can provide a real dps increase, a boost to burst, and I am a DPS in our raids, I tend to pass on it in favor of Respite.

What do I mean by I am a DPS? My role is to bring down the enemies HP, and I gear my spec towards doing that as best as I possibly can. Oh how I wish this was in the Balance tree, so I could grab Veil instead of damned Jedi Resistance.

 

 

 

 

 

BURST

 

Setting the burst!

 

1. In Stealth, activate ONLY Force Potency
   
2. Upon exiting stealth, apply Force in Balance
   
3. Apply Project, so as not to force cap
   
4. Apply Force Breach, and then Sever force.
   
5. Activate power adrenal (You are biochem, yah?)
   
6. Double Strike until Mind crush proc (Yes, be surprised you are still near max force ^^)
   
7. Activate Battle readiness and Apply Mind Crush, then back to Double strike
   
8. Enter Rotation.
   

 

On a good day, you can get your second Mind Crush proc applied before FiB is off cooldown. Yay.

 

Please note, this rotation is only useful for starting a fight from stealth close to melee range. Should you be required to start from ranged, opening with FiB and then Sever force is more useful as it's better to be doing something then nothing while running to the boss.

 

Battle readiness and Power adrenal works best with DoTs up, however with the limited time frame before Twin disciples runs out I find it better to activate Power adrenal as soon as it's time to DS. Holding off on Battle readiness until Mind Crush proc is most effective as well, but I seem to fight urges to want to blow all my offensive cooldowns at the same time.

 

 

 

 

ROTATION TWINKS

 

A simple Balance rotation can be found in numerous areas. The basic idea is:

1. Force in Balance off cool down
   
2. Execute
   
3. Mind crush if proc is up
   
4. Re-apply dots
   
5. Shadow strike if proc
   
6. Double Strike
   
7. Saber strike when out of force
   

 

So anyway, here's what's important and why you do it.

 

Force in Balance off-cooldown

 

Force in Balance is a huge asset to our spec, because it applies stacks on a target that increases Dot damage, and regens force with those stacks as they tick off. A long-term fight is going to require force management, so be productive and use this off cooldown as much as you can! It will mean more force in the future, and higher potential damage.

 

 

How you go about gaining your mind crush proc is very VERY important. A balance shadow is going to have to use Saber strike occasionally, nobody gets a basic-attack free rotation. You should use this proactively, not when you are out of force! When it's time to proc mind crush and you are in the middle of a fight, so long as you have under 40-60 force (depending on your preference) use Saber Strike instead of double strike to try to proc Mind Crush! Saber strike hits three times, and means three separate chances to proc the DoT instead of the two from Double Strike. (Provided you don't force cap yourself using saber strike)

 

 

Sometimes you will be faced with a decision on procs, when you receive Infiltration tactics and Mind crush in the same GCD. It is always better to use the Mind Crush first, because if you are proccing at around the rate limit of 6 seconds (and yes, you should be) you want to apply it immediately to keep the dot rolling so you don't lose damage on the back end of the dot when the next mind crush proc comes along. Shadow strike causes no damage over time, and if you use it on the back-end of the 9 sec rate limit it can still proc in the next few seconds for no loss in damage when you use it again.

 

 

Please note that I do not include Project in the actual "rotation." Using project is hard on our force, you should NOT use it mid-fight as you will find yourself saber striking to recover instead of using double strike, and there is no reason to boost your basic attack damage!

 

I tend to use project only post-vanish with Respite up, or during movement phases or some other lull in combat where I can set it up effectively.

 

 

EDIT: I found a discrepancy in what my parser is telling me and what is actually happening, doing some testing on it now. If Sever Force is indeed hitting harder, it should be applied first in your dot rotation. Doing this allows you to launch into melee sooner after applying Force Breach, and have more uptime to proc mind crush, as well as getting the hardest hitting ability off first.

 

Old info

 

Force Breach hits like a truck. Sever force hits like my nanny. Never apply sever force first in your DoT rotation unless you are +10 meters. It's still useful to reapply once off, because even substituting a DS for it I see a net-gain of 3000-ish damage but Force breach is so much more worthwhile to get out first, because it just does more. Never forget that our best damage comes from getting the dots out early, reapplying as SOON as they run off, and managing Mind crush procs by being proactive with saber strikes. You'll still find plenty of time to be all ninja and use shadow strike and double strike.

 

 

 

 

Remember folks, science is all about proving things wrong. I gladly welcome any sort of discussion.

 

 

(Minor edit, fixed tired mistakes in basic rotation, and clarification on sever force)

Edited October 6, 2012 by CpnWiggler

[scionofhorus]

A few things.

 

At higher gear levels, using Project to proc TD provides a DPS boost over not using it, simply because of how much power an optimized Campaign+ Balance Shadow has.

 

Sever Force typically hits harder than Force Breach for me, largely because it deals internal damage rather than kinetic, which is mitigated by armor.

 

I believe optimal Saber Strike usage is when you fall below 40 Force, as using it too much higher results in too much of a DPS loss.

[PPAlien]

Nice read,

 

My preference is also to use project in rotation when the twin disciplines buff wears off if I don't need to use FiB and refresh DoTs at the time. It has been shown mathematically in higher gear to be a DPS increase and also in Raids the enemy is always moving or you are moving so it is handy for outside the 4m range. I'm into the 1550 range now and increasing steadily on the dummy, still a few pieces to upgrade though to 61. Got just over 1700 on Karragga the other day, so raid increases (armour reduction and inspiration help alot).

[Mordeguy]

I've got 3 shadows/assasins, all of them tanks. I have dps'd quite a bit but never put time into optimizing for that since I'm usually tanking and only switch if we have another tank we need to run and the heal spots are full.

 

So because I'm weird and don't like to change my shadows' specs (they each have different tank gearing styles and one is often pvp specced) or gear I'll be making a 4th to finally have a dps shadow. Looking forward to giving it a shot with an optimized set and actually studying some rotations, thanks for posts like this as reference

Edited October 5, 2012 by Mordeguy

[CpnWiggler]

A few things.

 

At higher gear levels, using Project to proc TD provides a DPS boost over not using it, simply because of how much power an optimized Campaign+ Balance Shadow has.

 

Sever Force typically hits harder than Force Breach for me, largely because it deals internal damage rather than kinetic, which is mitigated by armor.

 

I believe optimal Saber Strike usage is when you fall below 40 Force, as using it too much higher results in too much of a DPS loss.

 

Hey, thanks for the thoughts. I went back and ran some testing on Sever Force vs. Force Breach and I found similar conclusions to what you posted on the Operations dummy.

 

It seems I was relying on MOX a little too much for my damage numbers, since after a boss fight the single skill that had been associated with Force Breach had numbers much much higher then Sever force. My best guess at this point is MOX counts Mind crush dot damage and force breach damage as the same skill. Not quite sure on where the discrepancies come into play, more testing is required!

 

What is interesting is that if this is the case and Sever Force hits slightly harder, using it first would be best, because your harder hitting DoT gets applied onto the target first, and Force breach's melee procs can start rolling in a GCD faster with more total uptime on the boss.

 

 

In regards to Project, I won't comment more at the moment until I can provide adequate testing, except to say that with changes to Infiltration Tactics I have noticed increased Force in certain time lapses throughout the fight. More testing, yay ^^

 

 

However, on the idea of Saber Strike being a DPS loss, I don't quite agree. I do think 70 force is too high to use it, simply because if you get your MC proc you are more then likely to force cap and lose DPS. That was a tired mistake on my part while writing the post, which I shall edit out.

 

But provided you are not Force Capping, by setting yourself up with a larger pool of force you give a bigger buffer to burn through when Twin Disciples is up. For me, it is not a 100% uptime talent. I believe you have to manage your rotation very efficiently to set yourself up for that bonus damage and maximizing it's output once arrived.

 

If you follow the set rule of "under X force, use saber strike for MC procs" I think you begin to limit DPS. Much in the same way that not using Saber strike for Mind crush at all will hamper your DPS. As long as you are not actively Force Capping, you are simply swapping a Saber Strike in the future for one now. I.E. more damage in the future for less now.

[scionofhorus]

Hey, thanks for the thoughts. I went back and ran some testing on Sever Force vs. Force Breach and I found similar conclusions to what you posted on the Operations dummy.

 

It seems I was relying on MOX a little too much for my damage numbers, since after a boss fight the single skill that had been associated with Force Breach had numbers much much higher then Sever force. My best guess at this point is MOX counts Mind crush dot damage and force breach damage as the same skill. Not quite sure on where the discrepancies come into play, more testing is required!

 

What is interesting is that if this is the case and Sever Force hits slightly harder, using it first would be best, because your harder hitting DoT gets applied onto the target first, and Force breach's melee procs can start rolling in a GCD faster with more total uptime on the boss.

Truthfully, though, it's pretty minor. The main reason I use Sever Force first is simply because of the cooldown and its much longer range.

 

In regards to Project, I won't comment more at the moment until I can provide adequate testing, except to say that with changes to Infiltration Tactics I have noticed increased Force in certain time lapses throughout the fight. More testing, yay ^^

At my gear level not using Project amounts to about a 50-60 DPS loss, iirc.

 

However, on the idea of Saber Strike being a DPS loss, I don't quite agree. I do think 70 force is too high to use it, simply because if you get your MC proc you are more then likely to force cap and lose DPS. That was a tired mistake on my part while writing the post, which I shall edit out.

 

But provided you are not Force Capping, by setting yourself up with a larger pool of force you give a bigger buffer to burn through when Twin Disciples is up. For me, it is not a 100% uptime talent. I believe you have to manage your rotation very efficiently to set yourself up for that bonus damage and maximizing it's output once arrived.

It's minor things like this that make Balance to difficult to play.

 

If you follow the set rule of "under X force, use saber strike for MC procs" I think you begin to limit DPS. Much in the same way that not using Saber strike for Mind crush at all will hamper your DPS. As long as you are not actively Force Capping, you are simply swapping a Saber Strike in the future for one now. I.E. more damage in the future for less now.

It's not so much using SS for MC procs as it is keeping above a certain Force threshold to be able to consistently cast FiB on cooldown/keep TD up. One of the things I'm working on is draining my Force down too low, using SS when FiB is off of cooldown to help recoup Force.