Lethality V Marks and Sniper V Slinger

[Kuronan]

There is an idiot arguing with me named Dashir. He believes not only is Gunslinger EXACTLY like Sniper, but that a Marksmanship will beat a Lethality sniper every time. In addition, after the ability Cull is used, a Sniper turns into a pansy and runs for his life. (Minor edit for proper list.)

 

I would like to hear the community on this one in the following categories.

1) Is Sniper better leveling (note i said leveling) than Gunslinger?

2) Is Lethality stronger than Marksmanship in a 1v1 duel? In PVP Overall?

3) After the ability Cull is used, do you turn tail and run like a pansy, or stay and fight?

4) Is Lethality better than a Marksmanship in PVE?

5) Overall, which class is better, and which spec is better for PVP and PVE?

Edited October 23, 2012 by Kuronan
Minor edit to list.

[RDeanOU]

There is an idiot arguing with me named Dashir. He believes not only is Gunslinger EXACTLY like Sniper, but that a Marksmanship will beat a Lethality sniper every time. In addition, after the ability Cull is used, a Sniper turns into a pansy and runs for his life.

 

I would like to hear the community on this one in the following categories.

1) Is Sniper better leveling (note i said leveling) than Gunslinger?

2) Is Lethality stronger than Marksmanship in a 1v1 duel? In PVP Overall?

2) After the ability Cull is used, do you turn tail and run like a pansy, or stay and fight?

3) Is Lethality better than a Marksmanship in PVE?

4) Overall, which class is better, and which spec is better for PVP and PVE?

 

I am only at level 22 right now so the only one of these I can address is your question 1.

 

Sniper is EXACTLY the same as Gunslinger for leveling. They are mirror classes. Their abilities are functionally identical and they get them at the same levels. Apart from when you get companions, the only differences at all between these 2 classes are cosmetic. I'm not sure what you could possibly think is different about these 2 classes.

[Svii]

There is an idiot arguing with me named Dashir. He believes not only is Gunslinger EXACTLY like Sniper, but that a Marksmanship will beat a Lethality sniper every time. In addition, after the ability Cull is used, a Sniper turns into a pansy and runs for his life.

 

I would like to hear the community on this one in the following categories.

1) Is Sniper better leveling (note i said leveling) than Gunslinger?

2) Is Lethality stronger than Marksmanship in a 1v1 duel? In PVP Overall?

2) After the ability Cull is used, do you turn tail and run like a pansy, or stay and fight?

3) Is Lethality better than a Marksmanship in PVE?

4) Overall, which class is better, and which spec is better for PVP and PVE?

 

Dashir is not an idiot, he's right on all accounts. I can't remember the last time I lost a straight up 1v1 against a Lethality Sniper/Slinger specced as MM, they usually run away.. if they still have HP left There are very few pro sniper/slingers out there, life is hard as a fresh 50 in PvP. The few that sticks to it and grinds to War Hero are usually very competent.

 

1. Nope.

 

2. Depends on your target. Lethality does more damage to tanky heavy armor classes wielding shields than MM, but I'd say Engineer is better against these annoying people. MM will melt medium/light armor classes quicker. Each spec has different tools, pros and cons and very different play styles. We're lucky to have 3 great skill trees that actually work!

 

2a. Cull is not the only high damage skill Lethality can use, don't forget your toolbox at home. Lethality is far from helpless while Cull is on cool down.

 

3. No, just about equal. Lethality might come ahead a few % in certain fights, mostly tank'n'spank. Play what you like best.

 

4. Snipers and Slingers are mirrored and equally awesome, except for when you use Target Aquired which gives Slingers a slight damage burst increase due to their offhand accuracy hits more often. Barely worth mentioning.

 

4. Specs, uhm.. This is a big one for PvP and heavily discussed. So I'll answer for myself; I prefer MM or MM/Engineer hybrid flavors or full Engineer for PvP. Lethality, while good, isn't for me.. Feels like I'm padding dmg, while as MM I'm actually killing single targets and as Engineer I'm either killing an entire (stupid) team with AoE or denying access to nodes.

[BambulaGTS]

There is an idiot arguing with me named Dashir. He believes not only is Gunslinger EXACTLY like Sniper, but that a Marksmanship will beat a Lethality sniper every time. In addition, after the ability Cull is used, a Sniper turns into a pansy and runs for his life.

 

I would like to hear the community on this one in the following categories.

1) Is Sniper better leveling (note i said leveling) than Gunslinger?

2) Is Lethality stronger than Marksmanship in a 1v1 duel? In PVP Overall?

2) After the ability Cull is used, do you turn tail and run like a pansy, or stay and fight?

3) Is Lethality better than a Marksmanship in PVE?

4) Overall, which class is better, and which spec is better for PVP and PVE?

 

1. Nope, why should he?

2. Depends. If you say 2 manly brutal sniporz who just stand and fight like a man, not hiding behind pillars like a girls, then probably marksman sniper will win due to diversion. If they both will hide like a little girls behind line of sight breaking objects, who knows.

3. Marksman has followthrough and another series of shots, lethalithy sniper has cull, buth they both have series of shots, explosive probe, ambush, snipe etc. Thinking about only ability used by lethality sniper is cull is unjustified.

4. In my opinion - yes.

5. Class? Spec? Use them all, buy field respec legacy unlock and respec on the fly.

[Werdan]

There is an idiot arguing with me named Dashir. He believes not only is Gunslinger EXACTLY like Sniper, but that a Marksmanship will beat a Lethality sniper every time. In addition, after the ability Cull is used, a Sniper turns into a pansy and runs for his life.

 

I would like to hear the community on this one in the following categories.

1) Is Sniper better leveling (note i said leveling) than Gunslinger?

2) Is Lethality stronger than Marksmanship in a 1v1 duel? In PVP Overall?

2) After the ability Cull is used, do you turn tail and run like a pansy, or stay and fight?

3) Is Lethality better than a Marksmanship in PVE?

4) Overall, which class is better, and which spec is better for PVP and PVE?

 

1) Never leveled a GS but having leveled both a BH Merc (dual wield) and Trooper Commando (cannon), they felt about the same. Merc was slightly better due to having smoother animations early on.

2) You will never get a definitive answer on this as its subjective to who the individual players are. Having played all 3 specs I know I could do well with any of them. Personal preferences lead me to favor Lethality but I also enjoy Engineering. I can't think of any time I've ever lost a straight up 1v1 against a MM. I guess there just aren't any really good ones on my server.

3) Dumb question. If anything, after Cull my targets are more likely to run away lol.

4) I don't do a lot of PvE but I actually prefer Engineering for solo and Lethality for group based content. I didn't play MM long enough to have an opinion on PvE.

5) See my second answer and 4th answers. Fortunately, Sniper/GS has 3 fairly balanced trees that have their pros (and cons) to them. Because of this, player skill is much more a determining factor versus how some other class specs might compare. I've seen players fail in one spec only to shine in another due to having a certain comfort level with it, not necessarily because the spec is bad.

[BaineOs]

I'll have a bash at answering yer questions too dude as I have a lvl 50 gunslinger and lvl 50 sniper.

 

1) Yes he is right. This differs to the others who've responded so let me explain.When you say:

1) Is Sniper better leveling (note i said leveling) than Gunslinger?

to me that's taking everything there is about snipers and gunslingers into account and that means, in my opinion, the class story. For me personally the sniper class story is by far superior to the smuggler one so for leveling I enjoyed the sniper a lot more. If you ignore the class stories then no he's not right, they are exactly the same....but I suspect he was thinking of the class story.

 

2) I think it's down to the individual. I've known lethality snipers who do better 1 on 1 than if they're specced mm. It all comes down to just how familiar you are with your build and the other class which yer having that 1 on 1. For me personally I get on much better 1 on 1 with Engineering than I ever have with the other 2 builds. MM requires you to be static lethality doesn't...not as much so it's easier for the lethality build to los a lot more than MM.

 

3) Snipers as a whole should always be aware of what's going on around them. We're always targeted by players so for me the fact the guy has done his cull and moved isn't necessarily a bad thing. Have a sniper being too static and I guarantee he'll be a far bigger target than the sniper who continuiously moves around to get the best possible position depending on the situation.

 

4) A few questions here so for the first part on which class is better please refer to my answer for number 1. The pvp part.....all comes down to what you're fighting. There's no way you can say there is one particular spec that is far superior to all the others. For me there's a whole lot more to the sniper/gunslinger than just damage but that's just my style. The pve part....well....I don't pve so I'm afraid that's one part I can't comment on

 

At the end of the day no matter what class you're on even if it's other than sniper/gunslinger use the spec that suits you the best for your own personal playstyle. If you're not happy with it no worries, change it and keep doing so till you find one that works for you.

[stringcat]

I'll have a bash at answering yer questions too dude as I have a lvl 50 gunslinger and lvl 50 sniper.

 

2) I think it's down to the individual. I've known lethality snipers who do better 1 on 1 than if they're specced mm. It all comes down to just how familiar you are with your build and the other class which yer having that 1 on 1. For me personally I get on much better 1 on 1 with Engineering than I ever have with the other 2 builds. MM requires you to be static lethality doesn't...not as much so it's easier for the lethality build to los a lot more than MM.

 

Engineering is pretty good 1 v 1. (Except vs. MM snipers, the jerks. That diversion hurts --- we still rely on EP + SOS for our burst.) No real opinion on lethality --- for whatever reason, I don't find myself often fighting them.

 

3) Snipers as a whole should always be aware of what's going on around them. We're always targeted by players so for me the fact the guy has done his cull and moved isn't necessarily a bad thing. Have a sniper being too static and I guarantee he'll be a far bigger target than the sniper who continuiously moves around to get the best possible position depending on the situation.

 

Agreed on situational awareness. I have mixed feelings regarding frequently moving vs. staying in cover. I don't know if my opponents think "hot damn, she left cover, BWAHAHA JUMP/PULL!" (and suddenly I have a face full of marauder or pyrotech) whenever I move an inch, but it damn well feels like it. Moving is very high-risk when there are enemy warriors or pyros about unless they are heavily engaged -- which goes to situational awareness.

 

In comparison, there are good "kiting" tools available in cover. Specced as an engineer, I have two knockbacks with roots, a ranged root, two stuns, , flashbang, CC immunity when needed, and the ability to drop two AOEs on myself. These are all useful to encourage enemies to keep their distance from the relative safety of cover. (Though not necessarily together. How many times have I said, "****, I'm standing in Plasma Probe, now I can't flashbang these damned marauders attacking me"? Many times.)

 

But of course, an engineer gets a lot more of a bonus from staying in cover than a lethality sniper will. A lethality sniper running around dotting people is not likely to focused / noticed immediately.

 

Frequent repositioning may be good for MM too.... but for engineering, you'll have the plasma probe up somewhere, very often on a door, and that's a pretty big reminder to "get that person when you have a chance." And on the move, you don't have most of your defensive tools instantly available.

Edited October 2, 2012 by stringcat

[BaineOs]

Aye mm snipers are a pain but I do ok against them when they hit that diversion button I normally flashbang them or if they break that then my shield probe. They normally work long enough to able to get back into cover. mm dudes quite often quickly go for their ambush too which can be avoided completely by using evasion. With lethality snipers I find that if I can get my burst off they'll normally be on the move which then means legshot followed up by ambush and a takedown...or couple of grenades then takedown.

 

Doesn't always work of course but generally speaking I don't have any problems with most of the snipers around on my server.

 

I understand dude where you're coming from about staying static vs being mobile. Have to say you are correct in what you've said too.

 

However I still stand by what I've said, let me explain. I've found that there's a lot of stealth dudes (sentinels get put in that category) and guardians/juggas with zealous leap and if you're against a player that knows what they're doing (which normally means they have friends who also know what they're doing) then the fact that you're in cover isn't going to make much of a difference.

 

So what I tend to do is to try and position myself somewhere that I can kite them around a bit using my stuns/roots etc to good effect whilst (if I'm p[laying with decent folk) my team mates come to help. Of course that's vey easy to do on huttball and civil war, novare coast is a bit more open so less kiting possibilities there and voidstar....depends on which area you're at but still kiting areas possible.

 

My point is that once good players have closed the gap then you have two options. Stand still and take the damage, in my experience against good players who know their class that's signing your own death warrant. The second option is to try and move inbetween your cc stuff. Against people who are either still learning their class or simply not very good none of this is a problem.

 

PVP is very situational and depends greatly on who you're playing with and against. Being able to tell the difference between good players and bad and knowing what to do when you see them coming for you I guess is the real key to any build. Of course the other factor comes in what guild you happen to be in. Depending on what guild you're in depends on how much people will take notice of you.

 

For example I've been told by more than one person that they don't see my name tag only my guild tag and if I happen to be a sniper so be it. If you're a sniper that gets targeted more often than others due to the guild you're in you tend to move around a lot more than normal

[Rigsta]

I prefer MM or MM/Engineer hybrid flavors or full Engineer for PvP. Lethality, while good, isn't for me.. Feels like I'm padding dmg, while as MM I'm actually killing single targets and as Engineer I'm either killing an entire (stupid) team with AoE or denying access to nodes.

Heh, I basically avoid all DoT usage in PvP because it breaks our roots and flashbang. I see how DoTs and cull melt people and it's tempting but I always end up with Marksman for the ability to switch from damage to CC in a heartbeat.

[Ryvirath]

Lethality is the ultimate glass cannon but unlike marksman which can heavily control people and engineering which can win 1v1s with ease it almost requires active team support to stay up. The payoff is a dps that exceeds every other class/spec by a significant margin. We're talking in the 1200 dps range in rated warzones.

[stringcat]

Aye mm snipers are a pain but I do ok against them when they hit that diversion button I normally flashbang them or if they break that then my shield probe. They normally work long enough to able to get back into cover. mm dudes quite often quickly go for their ambush too which can be avoided completely by using evasion. With lethality snipers I find that if I can get my burst off they'll normally be on the move which then means legshot followed up by ambush and a takedown...or couple of grenades then takedown.

 

LOSing works too. Since you're out of damned cover anyway. MM also have the cooldown reduction on entrench- it's up 40% of the time and makes CC a difficult strategy to use.

 

However I still stand by what I've said, let me explain. I've found that there's a lot of stealth dudes (sentinels get put in that category) and guardians/juggas with zealous leap and if you're against a player that knows what they're doing (which normally means they have friends who also know what they're doing) then the fact that you're in cover isn't going to make much of a difference.

 

Range on zealous leap isn't that impressive -- they can wander over in just a bit more time on their own two feet. Much more worried about the 30m leap.

 

Stealthers do tend to kill me. Damned DPS scoundrels in particular. My strategy in those situations is always CC, yell for help, scuttle away and pop my major cooldowns. I wouldn't count marauders/sents as stealthers, though. Their stealth doesn't last long enough to achieve real surprise attacks, and it's surprise attacks that I do poorly with.

 

My point is that once good players have closed the gap then you have two options. Stand still and take the damage, in my experience against good players who know their class that's signing your own death warrant. The second option is to try and move inbetween your cc stuff. Against people who are either still learning their class or simply not very good none of this is a problem.

 

I prefer to stand there and take the damage, really. (Or not taking damage, as the case may be. There are a number of cooldowns they have to chew through first. And the knockbacks.) They're taking damage from Orbital Strike, eating stuns, and have a sniper shooting in their face. That's a good position to be in, in a DPS race, regardless of how well they know their class. And it's not like they'll forget you once you move. OTOH, healers in my group have definitely reproached me for taking lots of damage.... What I really need to do is work on my Green Man "take cover" movement skills. I'm sure that'd be a great way to kite if I focused on figuring out the good spots on each map.

 

I am more mobile when nobody is bugging me in particular, or when OS is down. Like you say, very situational

 

PVP is very situational and depends greatly on who you're playing with and against. Being able to tell the difference between good players and bad and knowing what to do when you see them coming for you I guess is the real key to any build. Of course the other factor comes in what guild you happen to be in. Depending on what guild you're in depends on how much people will take notice of you.

 

My server's tiny enough that everyone knows each other as individuals. So there's no question who the good players are, really. I like the community, but it'd be nice for there to be more surprises. I wonder how profoundly that affects my tactics.

Edited October 3, 2012 by stringcat

[Svii]

Heh, I basically avoid all DoT usage in PvP because it breaks our roots and flashbang. I see how DoTs and cull melt people and it's tempting but I always end up with Marksman for the ability to switch from damage to CC in a heartbeat.

 

QFE, which is why I don't take IP on my MM/Eng hybrid ^^

 

I love being a troll in WZs, root, stun, Diversion, KBs.. I find great pleasure in rooting a warrior about to leap, and of course let him stand there for the full 5 seconds it lasts while battle ensues right in front of him, must be infuriating!

 

Against backstabbing Operatives I use Diversion the second I'm up, quite a few times I've seen them miss 2-3 stabs in a row, stop for a bit, then Vanish with a "huh?" look on their face. Works great on any class really, but I save Diversion for the most annoying ones that repeatedly come after me.

 

Everyone talks about LoS'ing a Sniper, especially MM. What works best is to just gain distance, you have 35m range. If they really wants to kill you, they will have to work for it. Following them is usually not the best approach, but it can work since some people panic when they're facing a Melee Sniper. Get close, KB, root and get them away from the pillar, usually they try to run away. Bad idea.

[BaineOs]

LOSing works too.

of course, agree with that, the problem is all snipers need LOS to do any kind of decent damage (i.e. our key burst skills)...so with that in mind sure you can LOS but then they can do the same thing to you

 

The thing about entrench....sure if you catch them with it off cooldown. Being a sniper the ones I've come across always seem to have it on cooldown hence why most of the times it's not a problem....at least that's in my experience. If you do catch them with entrench available then for me a well timed diversion + shield seems to help long enough until I can get back into cover.

 

Zealous leap is only useable within 10m I think? Aye it's not but I've seen it used against me by good players who know what they're doing and those are the ones I'm concerned about. It's also why I put sentienls in the stealthers category because there's a couple that use that tactic rather well. It's when those players notice that I'm targeting them that they immediately hit stealth before I've had a chance to dot them and even if I have and they're revealed it's enough for me to loose my target. It doesn't help in my view

 

I prefer to stand there and take the damage, really. (Or not taking damage, as the case may be. There are a number of cooldowns they have to chew through first. And the knockbacks.) They're taking damage from Orbital Strike, eating stuns, and have a sniper shooting in their face.

Aye I do the same thing don't get me wrong, it all comes down to that situational thing. There's a time for hunkering down and taking damage to deal it and there's other times when you need to move otherwise you got a trip to go on to get back to the action

 

My server's tiny enough that everyone knows each other as individuals.

Didn't think there were any small servers now, which one are you on? I'm on The Red Eclipse

[stringcat]

of course, agree with that, the problem is all snipers need LOS to do any kind of decent damage (i.e. our key burst skills)...so with that in mind sure you can LOS but then they can do the same thing to you

 

Yeah, but I'm mostly buying time until I can get back into cover in this scenario None of my abilities that are USEABLE while diversion-ed require LOS + channel.

 

Didn't think there were any small servers now, which one are you on? I'm on The Red Eclipse

 

Begeren Colony. At prime time, we have one instance of fleet, with 130 people or so.

 

I think I may literally be the only engineering sniper on my server in 50s PVP. (I did see someone else lay a Plasma Probe a couple weeks ago, but haven't seen a Plasma Probe since, so I think they respecced back to MM.) I can only think of ONE other full augged war hero sniper who still plays, period; he's specced lethality. And I don't think there are any saboteur gunslingers at all.

 

There are three or four BM/partial WH snipers grinding their way up, but they're specced MM. I think the reason there are so few of us is that the gearcheck hits snipers pretty hard.... so relatively few persevere after being accustomed to ruling the roosts in lowbie PVP, where snipers are OP.

 

Small server. I feel like a special snowflake.

Edited October 3, 2012 by stringcat

[stringcat]

QFE, which is why I don't take IP on my MM/Eng hybrid ^^.

 

Interrogation probe is a very valuable snare in huttball! You're not going to be mezzing the ball carrier anyway. In other warzones, it's only on one guy, so you just keep track of who. Just have to be a bit careful.

 

Where I run into trouble is instinctive "plasma probe on node" when defending; then it's "well there goes my option to mezz that group while waiting for backup. Self, you are a *******."

[BaineOs]

wow, that is quiet. Much more active on my server with a fair few snipers. Not many engineering snipers around but there are some that I've noticed.

 

after being accustomed to ruling the roosts in lowbie PVP

That's always funny to see, snipers do well in lowbie but then get their *** handed to them on a platter when they ding to 50. Of course it's not limited to just snipers but quite often the ones who rage that everyone else sucks bad team etc are the ones who complain the most when they don't last that long.

[Svii]

Interrogation probe is a very valuable snare in huttball! You're not going to be mezzing the ball carrier anyway. In other warzones, it's only on one guy, so you just keep track of who. Just have to be a bit careful.

 

IP is great, I love me some Engineer PvP every once in a while. Best 1v1 build in my experience, only Assassins give me trouble as Engineer.

 

My 29/12 build doesn't leave room for more skills, it's a very specialized MM build.. I call it lol@Smash The other day I was sitting in Plasma Probe and Orbital Strike and I think a Smasher was there, was barely taking damage! Entrench <3

Edited October 4, 2012 by Svii

[stringcat]

IP is great, I love me some Engineer PvP every once in a while. Best 1v1 build in my experience, only Assassins give me trouble as Engineer.

 

Really? I won't say Assassins don't give me trouble, but I 1v1 them way better than DPS scoundrels. DPS scoundrels have my number. Against a well-geared skilled DPS scoundrel, I have a 20% of victory. I guess it doesn't help that my server is tiny and they know how much I hate them. I scream for help and emotionally prepare myself for a loss with the first shot in the back when I'm guarding alone at a node/turret.

Edited October 4, 2012 by stringcat

[Svii]

Yeah, those stealthers are our bane and I'm fine with that. Just have to make sure you're not alone hehe Met a Shadow yesterday, never died so fast in my life.. still don't know what happened, had to check if I had my PvP gear on

[Altheran]

2) Is Lethality stronger than Marksmanship in a 1v1 duel? In PVP Overall?

 

When I was Lethality specced, for me nothing was easier to kill 1vs1 than a Marksmanship Sniper.

 

Long story short : hard cover.

 

Long story : you DoT them when they start casting, and you stop a little time so that his shots go in the cover, you do it a second time for the second DoT, if he get you out of cover, you use Evasion and wait to get back in cover (you can use Cull during this time because the MM one will probably attempting to pound you with Series of Shots), if he try to use Orbital Strike, you charge him (using some instant firing abilities) and shiv/debilitate him and bumping him at the end of the melee rotation in order to steal his hard cover if he had one (most of the time they won't use Entrench because they tend to not fear CC from Snipers and Gunslingers and at the beggining you shown a really passive and non-agressive playstyle)

Edited October 6, 2012 by Altheran

[Y_bot]

1) Is Sniper better leveling (note i said leveling) than Gunslinger?

2) Is Lethality stronger than Marksmanship in a 1v1 duel? In PVP Overall?

3) After the ability Cull is used, do you turn tail and run like a pansy, or stay and fight?

4) Is Lethality better than a Marksmanship in PVE?

5) Overall, which class is better, and which spec is better for PVP and PVE?

1. Storywise, agent is amazing. Other than that, they're mirror classes, sooo...

2. I have never played straight lethality, but the hybrid i use does amazingly well in all PvP situations. Marksman is definitly a viable spec for all levels though, and lethality only really does well after you get cull.

3. I stay and fight mainly because i'm a horrible runner. Usually the person is dead or almost, in which case use the finisher.

4. I don't play a lot of PvE, but marksmanship has done way better than lethality in that catagory.

5. I really enjoy agent, but that's a personal opinion. As for the better spec, it really depends on how you play it. I've seen both do well, and i've seen both miserably fail. Depends on play style as well.

 

I almost wanna argue with you because you seem to be kind of a jerk. Personal opinion.

[thefishdude]

I've played all three specs in great detail (switch up each week). My personal favorite is lethality, because of the mobility. Personally, MM snipers are an easy target for me, because I can Dot, Dot, LOS, Weaken Blast, LOS, Cull, LOS, Explosive probe, LOS, rifle shot, rifle shot, LOS, Cull, takedown (if needed).....dead MM.

[xsyst]

Mm allday. Edited January 28, 2013 by xsyst