Dear Devs: HOLD THE LINE IS NOT A TROOPER ABILITY

[ArchangelLBC]

On the last patch notes, as in the ones on the PTS, there was a mention made regarding all troopers and the ability Hold the Line. I think you, the devs, should know that only vanguards specced reasonably high in the Tactics tree get this ability. If you think we have this ability then I can understand why you might think we're fine on utility in PVP. Let me assure you that we are not fine, and could seriously use this ability. Perhaps it's like our interrupt and you just weren't aware that we didn't have it. Please fix this now.

[Luceon]

That may be very possible they think hold the line is a trooper ability and not vanguard, however they knew troopers didn't have an interrupt. They used to say things like "The trooper has enough utility that an interrupt would give it a major advantage". I just wanted to point that out, and I can only hope someone from the community team still watches over the class forums for constructive threads.

[xxIncubixx]

i second this, i think the new class Dev doesnt know what he is doing...

[Lowyjowylof]

Yea, trooper may be fine as a base class in utility, but the AC Commando is not, when compared to the other ranged classes.

 

It's pretty obvious that the changes in 1.4 were geared toward Vanguards and Powertechs, not Commandos and Mercs. The changes might be fine for PT and Vanguard but they actually hurt DPS Commando/Merc in PvP. Either give us more utility (or utilities that will work in both PvP and PvE) or more survivability. The interrupt is fine but nerfing, cryo and SS still make it an overall nerf to the DPS trees in 1.4.

 

Medic got some nice changes, how about giving Gunnery some love so it's more than just a squishy turret in PvP.

[SpaniardInfinity]

On the last patch notes, as in the ones on the PTS, there was a mention made regarding all troopers and the ability Hold the Line. I think you, the devs, should know that only vanguards specced reasonably high in the Tactics tree get this ability. If you think we have this ability then I can understand why you might think we're fine on utility in PVP. Let me assure you that we are not fine, and could seriously use this ability. Perhaps it's like our interrupt and you just weren't aware that we didn't have it. Please fix this now.

 

I don't normally say this on the forums, but you need to relax. I'd assume that the people that are developing the game know quite well who has which abilities and what is and isn't a class or AC ability. Whether or not you agree with their justifications for giving/not giving a class certain abilities is another subject entirely (Gunnery IMO does need help but...)

 

...This is truly a silly thing to even be discussing. Okay, so they put Hold the Line under "general" Trooper changes. Is the purpose of this thread seriously so they go back and edit the patch notes so it is rightfully under Vanguard-specific changes? Would changing that single line in patch notes to make it read correctly suddenly solve the imbalance existing for Commando DPS (specifically Gunnery)? I'll let you answer that.

[ArchangelLBC]

I don't normally say this on the forums, but you need to relax. I'd assume that the people that are developing the game know quite well who has which abilities and what is and isn't a class or AC ability. Whether or not you agree with their justifications for giving/not giving a class certain abilities is another subject entirely (Gunnery IMO does need help but...)

 

...This is truly a silly thing to even be discussing. Okay, so they put Hold the Line under "general" Trooper changes. Is the purpose of this thread seriously so they go back and edit the patch notes so it is rightfully under Vanguard-specific changes? Would changing that single line in patch notes to make it read correctly suddenly solve the imbalance existing for Commando DPS (specifically Gunnery)? I'll let you answer that.

 

I no longer make any assumptions about what the devs know. They apparently thought that focus/rage specs needed a buff, and literally months of begging for more utility and asking why we are so lacking in this department have fallen on deaf ears. Maybe they really thought Hold the Line was a trooper ability and not a tactics vanguard ability. Hell it seems so obvious that something like that should be in gunnery, and it's long since been clear that no one on the dev team actually plays a DPS commando in PVP or I have to think they'd have gotten some love a long time ago in the utility department. The recent changes pretty much prove they have no idea about the class in PVP so why should I assume they know what abilities we're supposed to have?

 

I don't see how my post in any way indicates a need to calm down. The title yes, but at this point I'd walk into their offices and scream in their faces if I could afford it and thought it would do any good whatsoever and get an actual response. The continued silence on the issue is even more frustrating than their continued idiotic changes.

Edited September 30, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[SpaniardInfinity]

I no longer make any assumptions about what the devs know. They apparently thought that focus/rage specs needed a buff, and literally months of begging for more utility and asking why we are so lacking in this department have fallen on deaf ears. Maybe they really thought Hold the Line was a trooper ability and not a tactics vanguard ability. Hell it seems so obvious that something like that should be in gunnery, and it's long since been clear that no one on the dev team actually plays a DPS commando in PVP or I have to think they'd have gotten some love a long time ago in the utility department. The recent changes pretty much prove they have no idea about the class in PVP so why should I assume they know what abilities we're supposed to have?

 

I don't see how my post in any way indicates a need to calm down. The title yes, but at this point I'd walk into their offices and scream in their faces if I could afford it and thought it would do any good whatsoever and get an actual response. The continued silence on the issue is even more frustrating than their continued idiotic changes.

 

But you do make assumptions of what you think they don't know. From both a PvP and PvE perspective, Troopers lack in two key departments: team-oriented utility and control. They generally end up being good percision strikers but fail miserably when they don't get the support they need. Gunnery is most definitely the most extreme example of this.

 

Gunnery specifically does need help, I agree. But I can see why there has been a hesitation to change it, namely, they don't want to make Gunnery too powerful in PvE and/or do not want to restructure the tree. Gunnery already does an obscene amount of damage, so they don't need to play with the damage numbers. So really the only way of changing them is to focus on their control (which is a class weakness) or focus on their survivability. The latter is their best bet, but I suspect Bioware thinks the heavy armor offsets this weakness.

 

The changes in 1.4, I think, have been hard to swallow because bad habits die hard. A lot of those habits were due to the toolset Commando was (or in this case, wasn't) given. The class plays differently now, for better or worse. Realistically, all Gunnery needs now is a way of making themselves immune to leaps for a time. They do need some sturdiness to make them a threat at range. But I don't see the spec that far from being balanced, it just needs some poise on the battlefield.

[ArchangelLBC]

But you do make assumptions of what you think they don't know. From both a PvP and PvE perspective, Troopers lack in two key departments: team-oriented utility and control. They generally end up being good percision strikers but fail miserably when they don't get the support they need. Gunnery is most definitely the most extreme example of this.

 

Given the ignorance they've displayed so far yes, I will continue to assume they lack quite a lot of knowledge about how the class they designed performs in actual live gameplay. The trees have always been a bit of a headscratcher, and I never really realized how incomplete the class felt till I leveled other classes, and saw how they were built. I have to wonder if along the beta process some things were changed that they never got around to fixing. You're right that we're completely useless on our own in a PVP environment and I'm fine if that's what they want for the class but forcing us to be babysat by heals and peels if we are to perform under fire is just a tad mind boggling. At least before the 1.2c nerf multiple commandos supporting each other actually led to better results because of the more numerous burst to demo round.

 

Gunnery specifically does need help, I agree. But I can see why there has been a hesitation to change it, namely, they don't want to make Gunnery too powerful in PvE and/or do not want to restructure the tree. Gunnery already does an obscene amount of damage, so they don't need to play with the damage numbers. So really the only way of changing them is to focus on their control (which is a class weakness) or focus on their survivability. The latter is their best bet, but I suspect Bioware thinks the heavy armor offsets this weakness.

 

Honestly the damage isn't all that obscene, especially in a PVP setting. What it IS is steady. Nevertheless, I agree with you here and every single change I've asked for (with no response from the devs) has been a change to utility and/or survivability. I understand that without a complete redesign to how gunnery works, perhaps not even without some sort of massive overhaul of the AC altogether, you aren't going to stop Gunnery's reliance on casting (a reliance that Assault shares people seem to forget). Hold the Line specifically, or rather a commando version which grants immunity to leaps, pulls and interrupts, would do wonders for us, though survivability is definitely an issue as well. If Bioware thinks that heavy armor offsets our weaknesses in this area then that goes back to their ignorance about how their own game works. I have a sentinel friend who respecced into Focus who is sitting on 32% DR without buffs. That's a medium armor class.

 

Anyway, I agree that the changes we need, the ONLY changes we need, are buffs to survivability and utility. Let us have those and yes we will top damage even though we have no execute ability, and no good offensive cooldowns to speak of.

 

The changes in 1.4, I think, have been hard to swallow because bad habits die hard. A lot of those habits were due to the toolset Commando was (or in this case, wasn't) given. The class plays differently now, for better or worse. Realistically, all Gunnery needs now is a way of making themselves immune to leaps for a time. They do need some sturdiness to make them a threat at range. But I don't see the spec that far from being balanced, it just needs some poise on the battlefield.

 

The changes in 1.4 have been hard to swallow because BW gave us something which we should have had from day 1, and then thought we should thank them when they nerfed what little utility they'd forgotten they'd given us, which leads me to my assumptions regarding their ignorance. I had several instances just tonight where the stockstrike knockback and the 30m Cryo would have been HUGELY beneficial. Even I didn't think the 10m range would be that bad but it really REALLY is. The thing I still don't get is that the Assault changes prove they can make an ability have one range for Vanguard and one range for Commando. Why not simply grant commando a passive ability at 10 to make Cryo Grenade 30m?

[MasterGladius]

Granting a range extending ability some of Commando's abilities isn't out of the question. They did it for Gunslingers and Sages. Doing the same for Commando seems like the right thing to do at this point.

[SOULCASTER]

If they make 'Hold The Line' (HTL) a trooper ability (meaning both vanguard AND commando would get it), that would be AMAZING. However, if you are then going to have Tank Vanguards (with storm) and Plasma Cell Assault Vanguards running around with HTL now, you are going to have to make some SERIOUS upgrades to the Tactics Tree of Vanguard in order to balance out the fact that the other 2 tree specs just got a HUGE boost out of nowhere.

 

I would welcome this change. However its more than likely they will give HTL to JUST commandos, and delete it from the vanguard tree. If THATS the case, they still will need to boost the tactics tree again as it just lost its keystone ability to commando then.

[oaceen]

Granting a range extending ability some of Commando's abilities isn't out of the question. They did it for Gunslingers and Sages. Doing the same for Commando seems like the right thing to do at this point.

 

why did you bump this thread? what was the point?

 

If they make 'Hold The Line' (HTL) a trooper ability (meaning both vanguard AND commando would get it), that would be AMAZING. However, if you are then going to have Tank Vanguards (with storm) and Plasma Cell Assault Vanguards running around with HTL now, you are going to have to make some SERIOUS upgrades to the Tactics Tree of Vanguard in order to balance out the fact that the other 2 tree specs just got a HUGE boost out of nowhere.

 

I would welcome this change. However its more than likely they will give HTL to JUST commandos, and delete it from the vanguard tree. If THATS the case, they still will need to boost the tactics tree again as it just lost its keystone ability to commando then.

 

this thread isn't suggesting that commandos (or all troopers) get hold the line. it was a criticism of the patch stating "hold the line has a new graphic effect" that was listed under Trooper (not vanguard specifically).

 

this is also a very old thread that probably wouldn't have been confusing to anyone if it wasn't bumped for no reason two months after the fact.