Don't Nerf, Buff.

[Narthil]

I love it how I'm constantly bringing down pretty much everything (except tanks) in a single burst rotation with my level 15 sharpshooter gunslinger, even players 30 levels above. And since I'm in medium armor, I can almost tank on the spot without moving (if I move and CC, I simply don't die).

 

On the other hand, with my level 50 sage with full BM and some WH, it's not half as easy, it takes 2 rotations with someone equally geared if I manage to survive. Sages are extremely squishy. Being the most squishy I would hope for at least having the highest burst dps in the game, but no, I have the lowest burst of all dps classes.

 

What happened to the concept of glass cannons? Gunslingers are like iron cannons, Sages are like glass water guns (we do put some pressure, but barely).

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want Gunslingers, PTs, nor Maras nerfed. I actually believe that's how they should work and that they are perfect as is.They are not OP at all, just performing correctly. With some skill and effort you can even take them sometimes.

 

But fact of the matter is, some classes are indeed underpowered.

 

So instead of nerfing to balance, buff to balance.

 

Knowing Sages quite well, I can tell you what's wrong. We have no burst damage and DoTs are useless since they get cleansed easily. I don't mind being squishy if I could have some decent burst.

 

Here is something that would buff Sages to balance without making us OP:

 

1. Make it so that you can have 2 stacks of Presence of Mind. That way we can actually have decent burst by connecting instant Mind Crush and Disturbance in the same rotation (with FiB and Project perhaps).

 

2. Make it so that Sage DoTs can't get dispelled.

 

I like the instant heal we're getting, that was good thinking, I don't even mind the nerfs to stun and force wave, as long as we get some decent burst.

 

Feel free to add you comments about buffing other underpowered classes, I can only comment on Sages.

 

I don't believe PTs or Snipers are OP, I mean it. They're perfect.

 

However, fact of the matter is, there are some underpeforming classes.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Narthil

[SgtKosht]

True there are classes out there that need a buff. Especially commandos as its quite difficult to put out their DPS. The problem is that Bioware seems to favour some classes more than others and until this is corrected, there will always be under-performing classes.

[vimm]

You have to also take PvE into account; the more buffs each class receives, the easier the content all becomes. That ends in a cycle of buffing content as well. Not that you necessarily PvE, but many people do - the majority, in fact.

[Narthil]

You have to also take PvE into account; the more buffs each class receives, the easier the content all becomes. That ends in a cycle of buffing content as well. Not that you necessarily PvE, but many people do - the majority, in fact.

 

Well, buffs like the one I describe above only make the class more competitive in PvP, I don't see how they would change PvE.

 

DoTs stick in PvE already, and you can already instant cast both abilities in a single rotation, just not consecutively for the much needed burst Sages need in PvP.

 

So it wouldn't change PvE at all.

[Narthil]

True there are classes out there that need a buff. Especially commandos as its quite difficult to put out their DPS. The problem is that Bioware seems to favour some classes more than others and until this is corrected, there will always be under-performing classes.

 

Definitely, Commandos and Sages need a buff. Sage healers also, they completely underperform compared to Smuggler healers.

[Captain_Zone]

Thank you, OP. I've been saying this in nearly every MMO I've ever played, since nerfs are not the answer.

 

And to the guy who said that buffs are bad because they have to scale up PvE mobs to match... there are also times when nerfs happen and PvE mobs are NOT scaled down to match. That has been known to kill subs in numerous games.

[itsmymillertime]

Not all classes are balanced at every level. I do agree Snipers/Gunslingers are really good as Snipe/Charged Bursts are the only real ability you have at level 15, so you spam it with the dart/probe for some quick burst damage.

[Narthil]

Not all classes are balanced at every level. I do agree Snipers/Gunslingers are really good as Snipe/Charged Bursts are the only real ability you have at level 15, so you spam it with the dart/probe for some quick burst damage.

 

Aimed Shot > Charged Burst (with 100% crit buff) > Vital Shot > Sabotage Charge > Flurry of Bolts = Dead almost anything 30 levels above in light armor, sometimes medium also.

 

My gunslinger's aimed shot at level 15 does practically the same damage as my sage's buffed mind crush at level 50 with BM/WH gear. And I haven't even received the damage increase skills/abilities for my gunslinger.

 

Again, I don't believe gunslingers/snipers are overpowered, it's just that sages are underpowered.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Narthil

[Master_Nate]

I do not agree with you that Sage abilities should not be allowed to cleansed. If anything, they could buff the DoTs, say give them something similar to what Lethality gets with Lingering Toxins. Perhaps they could buff DoTs in that the longer they are on you, the more stacks they tick for thus making cleanse a must as their damage increases if not handled. Since cleanse can only dispel two stacks, if your DoTs were capable of stacking more the longer they went on for, this would make it seem a little less underpowered.

 

As a healer, I do look for the DoTs on teammates but those pesky Lethality ones that come back as soon as you cleanse them, though a weaker version, still do dmg. I like that ability and would like to see Sage/Sorc get something like this as well. Cleanse is something like a 5 sec cooldown, I can't remember since I'm not on my character, but lots of DoTs are instant which would make a healer have to choose which teammates they can sacrifice the energy/force for and not all will get picked up, thus improving Sage/Sorc overall dmg.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Master_Nate

[Narthil]

I do not agree with you that Sage abilities should not be allowed to cleansed. If anything, they could buff the DoTs, say give them something similar to what Lethality gets with Lingering Toxins. Perhaps they could buff DoTs in that the longer they are on you, the more stacks they tick for thus making cleanse a must as their damage increases if not handled. Since cleanse can only dispel two stacks, if your DoTs were capable of stacking more the longer they went on for, this would make it seem a little less underpowered.

 

As a healer, I do look for the DoTs on teammates but those pesky Lethality ones that come back as soon as you cleanse them, though a weaker version, still do dmg. I like that ability and would like to see Sage/Sorc get something like this as well.

 

How about being able to cleanse 1 but not all 3?

[Master_Nate]

How about being able to cleanse 1 but not all 3?

 

Well you are one of many Sages, imagine other toons with DoTs and you can see where the problem would be if that were the case. Imagine all the debuffs flying around we are cleansing. I, as an Operative, can not cleanse your DoTs anyway so if there isn't a Sorc on my team to do it, then your DoTs could flow without cleanse. Not to mention, cleanse takes up my GCD as well and isn't an efficient way to spend Energy if there is a lot of damage being put out by the opposing team. Sometimes, I just have to heal through it but that is where I am siding with you on increase in their potential damage to keep healers from doing so and forcing them to cleanse.

 

I can't speak on classes that can cleanse themselves, only as a healer. But again, I think this is why they divided what could be cleansed between different classes. You say 1, but when I'm healing a tank and he has 6 debuffs on him and my cleanse is on a 5 second cool-down, 2 doesn't seem to be that much since a lot of DoTs are instant cast.

 

I think DoTs should be able to be cleansed, I just think Sorc/Sage need a buff to the dmg that their DoTs put out to equal out their purpose for using them to maximize damage output.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Master_Nate

[Narthil]

Well you are one of many Sages, imagine other toons with DoTs and you can see where the problem would be if that were the case. Imagine all the debuffs flying around we are cleansing. I, as an Operative, can not cleanse your DoTs anyways so if there isn't a Sorc on my team to do it, then your DoTs could flow without cleanse. Not to mention, cleanse takes up my GCD as well and isn't an efficient way to spend Energy if there is a lot of damage being put out by the opposing team. Sometimes, I just have to heal through it but that is where I am siding with you on increase in their potential damage to keep healers from doing so and forcing them to cleanse.

 

I can't speak on classes that can cleanse themselves, only as a healer. But again, I think this is why they divided what could be cleansed between different classes. You say 1, but when I'm healing a tank and he has 6 debuffs on him and my cleanse is on a 5 second cool-down, 2 doesn't seem to be that much since a lot of DoTs are instant cast.

 

I think DoTs should be able to be cleansed, I just think Sorc/Sage need a buff to the dmg that their DoTs put out to equal out their purpose for using them to maximize damage output.

 

That does make sense. Well, we just need more burst however it happens,

[TheronFett]

I completely disagree with just about everything the OP said.

 

Part of (if not most of) the blame rests squarely on BioWare's shoulders, as they've never really come right out and said what their design intent was for ACs and how they intended class balance to play out. They've largely left that up to the players to figure out on their own. While some have, there are a lot of players like the OP who have not. The depth of roles in this game goes beyond those in other games.

 

Typically, DPS light armor wearers are nuking classes. That's not always the case in TOR. Here, Sages have sustained damage and control/escape abilities. To buff them by also allowing them to nuke would unbalance the game. If you want to play a ranged nuke class, play a Marksman Sniper or Republic equivalent.

 

I agree that nerfs usually aren't the answer, and players hate nerfs to their class. However, you need to have a better understanding of how the classes work before claiming that you're underpowered. 9 times out of 10, you just picked the wrong class for your desired play style.

[Master_Nate]

That does make sense. Well, we just need more burst however it happens,

 

If your DoTs put out more damage, I think it would force more people to worry about cleansing themselves. Though this seems contradicting to what you were asking for, cleansing sucks....it takes me out of healing people as well. So if your DoTs were to be really eating up someone, I would HAVE to cleanse them, thus leaving other teammates open to be gunned down by you and your team.

 

I am in agreement with you though, i think Sorc/Sage DoTs need a buff. I think it would bring them on a higher level than they are now. You are right, most people just cleanse your DoTs but if they stacked, as I mentioned earlier, if they treated your DoTs like they do Lethality then even through a cleanse they would still be burning for another 5 seconds, that's the CD on Cleanse. From that idea, they could tweak it some based on feedback and testing, hopefully.

 

All thoughts aside, I hope they do look into your request because I think it's a valid argument and one that has held Sorc/Sages back in the big picture as far as big numbers. I think it's something that could be taken back to the review board for discussion rather than nerfing any one else. For the record, there is one Sorc that sticks out in my mind on our server and he puts out HUGE numbers every time he plays so it could come down to rotations as well. I don't play my Sorc anymore so I'm clueless on it and when I did play him, I was a healer

 

However, it may not be BW/EA intention to make Sorc/Sages a "NUKE" class. They have great utility and provide a lot to the team, not just dmg...

Edited September 24, 2012 by Master_Nate

[Narthil]

I completely disagree with just about everything the OP said.

 

Part of (if not most of) the blame rests squarely on BioWare's shoulders, as they've never really come right out and said what their design intent was for ACs and how they intended class balance to play out. They've largely left that up to the players to figure out on their own. While some have, there are a lot of players like the OP who have not. The depth of roles in this game goes beyond those in other games.

 

Typically, DPS light armor wearers are nuking classes. That's not always the case in TOR. Here, Sages have sustained damage and control/escape abilities. To buff them by also allowing them to nuke would unbalance the game. If you want to play a ranged nuke class, play a Marksman Sniper or Republic equivalent.

 

I agree that nerfs usually aren't the answer, and players hate nerfs to their class. However, you need to have a better understanding of how the classes work before claiming that you're underpowered. 9 times out of 10, you just picked the wrong class for your desired play style.

 

If there was sustained damage that would be true, but once the DoTs get cleansed, you are left with no damage. No sustained nor burst.

 

1v1 I can take down pretty much anything timing my CCs and interrupts correctly.

 

However, in any decent premade or a pug with good healers, they will dissappear your DoTs in no time leaving you with no sustained nor burst damage and since this is a group game and not a 1v1 game, I felt the necessity to post.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Narthil

[TheronFett]

If there was sustained damage that would be true, but once the DoTs get cleansed, you are left with no damage. Any decent premade will dissappear your DoTs in no time.

 

There are several ACs who can apply DoTs, and several who can cleanse them. That seems pretty balanced to me.

 

Yes, decent premades will have healers watching out for DoTs. Group coordination is key in PvP. Your DoTs are being cleansed because your team is not using focus fire and taking down targets one at a time. Sages aren't really capable of bursting down single targets on their own. You should enable focus target in your UI and hotkey "acquire focus target's target". THAT is where you will see the best results for your class.

[stringcat]

I love it how I'm constantly bringing down pretty much everything (except tanks) in a single burst rotation with my level 15 sharpshooter gunslinger, even players 30 levels above. And since I'm in medium armor, I can almost tank on the spot without moving (if I move and CC, I simply don't die).

 

On the other hand, with my level 50 sage with full BM and some WH, it's not half as easy, it takes 2 rotations with someone equally geared if I manage to survive. Sages are extremely squishy. Being the most squishy I would hope for at least having the highest burst dps in the game, but no, I have the lowest burst of all dps classes.

...However, fact of the matter is, there are some underpeforming classes.

 

Play a sniper at 50 and get back to us. The classes are not balanced to reflect their status at level 15. Lowbie Snipers hugely benefit from bolster. Different story at 50. Snipers are stuck in place and die pretty immediately when attacked.

 

There IS a relatively non-squishy spec of sniper at 50 - Engineering all the way - but that trades the other specs' burst damage. (And hell, my experience that engineering snipers are "not that squishy" is probably highly related to playing an augged war hero engineering sniper: 5k more HP to chew through increases TTK quite a bit)

Edited September 24, 2012 by stringcat

[anwg]

You do realize buffing one class is a nerf to all the other classes?

[PlagaNerezza]

I love it how I'm constantly bringing down pretty much everything (except tanks) in a single burst rotation with my level 15 sharpshooter gunslinger, even players 30 levels above. And since I'm in medium armor, I can almost tank on the spot without moving (if I move and CC, I simply don't die).

 

Using sub-50 pvp to talk balance is absurd. Bolster is screwed up on snipers and gunslingers. Your burst currently is highly dependent on being in cover. I regularly faceroll that AC one on one with my tanksin and don't find it to out burst a tank class with dps armor. Let alone marauders who I know from playing a GS to valor 69 will kill that class with way more functionality and burst. Its a good class but its not OP. So that is my discussion starting point.

 

On the other hand, with my level 50 sage with full BM and some WH, it's not half as easy, it takes 2 rotations with someone equally geared if I manage to survive. Sages are extremely squishy. Being the most squishy I would hope for at least having the highest burst dps in the game, but no, I have the lowest burst of all dps classes.

 

What happened to the concept of glass cannons? Gunslingers are like iron cannons, Sages are like glass water guns (we do put some pressure, but barely).

 

Sages are not burst DPS classes. They are pressure DPS. They aim to apply constant pressure on the healers at least in the DoT builds. They are a utility class. The problem is that lightning is overly nerfed and no longer a sustained dmg pvp dps tree. It needs to be looked at to give sages/sorcerers a non-dot sustained dps tree that is not OP like pre-nerf.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want Gunslingers, PTs, nor Maras nerfed. I actually believe that's how they should work and that they are perfect as is.They are not OP at all, just performing correctly. With some skill and effort you can even take them sometimes.

 

I regularly kill them with my Assassin. I regularly kill equal or near equal geared marauders and PT's. They also kill me. I will say that flame burst is OP. It probably needs some sort of mechanical enhancement so you cannot spam it 3 times in what seems like 1 gcd. It's possible to mitigate but in group play with a few smart players its way to much burst in a short time. Mind you I think the issue is in group play.

 

But fact of the matter is, some classes are indeed underpowered.

 

Some AC's are designed for PVE utility and some are more suited for pvp. A Sorc healer is great for operations. A madness dps sorcerer is really good for pve.

 

So instead of nerfing to balance, buff to balance.

 

Knowing Sages quite well, I can tell you what's wrong. We have no burst damage and DoTs are useless since they get cleansed easily. I don't mind being squishy if I could have some decent burst.

You are not a burst dps class.

 

Here is something that would buff Sages to balance without making us OP:

 

1. Make it so that you can have 2 stacks of Presence of Mind. That way we can actually have decent burst by connecting instant Mind Crush and Disturbance in the same rotation (with FiB and Project perhaps).

 

So you want a DoT build with Cannon DPS? You don't see a design flaw?

 

2. Make it so that Sage DoTs can't get dispelled.

 

So its not enough you added a ton of DPS. Now you want full effect unmitigated damage as well?

 

I like the instant heal we're getting, that was good thinking, I don't even mind the nerfs to stun and force wave, as long as we get some decent burst.

 

Glad you like the free heal instant cast with a bubble. Should make your uncleansable DoT idea + Cannon DPS really amazing.

 

Feel free to add you comments about buffing other underpowered classes, I can only comment on Sages.

 

Your overall point of needing Sage/Sorc DPS improved is one I'll agree with to an extent. Where you want to go is absolutely laughable. Commandos, Sages, and Operatives got overly nerfed.

 

I don't believe PTs or Snipers are OP, I mean it. They're perfect.

 

PT's in ranked with coordinated groups burst with flame burst needs to be addressed.

 

However, fact of the matter is, there are some underpeforming classes.

 

For PvP yes. Just like there are problems with some AC's in PvE.

[PoliteAssasin]

Definitely, Commandos and Sages need a buff. Sage healers also, they completely underperform compared to Smuggler healers.

 

Neither of these classes need a buff. People just need to learn to play, as usual. I've seen people use these classes I their fullest potential, however most people do not. No need to buff a class that is working as intended just because some bad players don't know how to figure it out.

[BaineOs]

I love it how I'm constantly bringing down pretty much everything (except tanks) in a single burst rotation with my level 15 sharpshooter gunslinger, even players 30 levels above. And since I'm in medium armor, I can almost tank on the spot without moving (if I move and CC, I simply don't die).

 

On the other hand, with my level 50 sage with full BM and some WH, it's not half as easy, it takes 2 rotations with someone equally geared if I manage to survive. Sages are extremely squishy. Being the most squishy I would hope for at least having the highest burst dps in the game, but no, I have the lowest burst of all dps classes.

 

What happened to the concept of glass cannons? Gunslingers are like iron cannons, Sages are like glass water guns (we do put some pressure, but barely).

 

Specifically this part:

with my level 15 sharpshooter gunslinger

 

What planet are you on dude? There is no conceivable way you can use a lvl 15 sniper and compare it to your lvl 50 sage. Go play the class at lvl 50 in around rank 80 and then come back and compare them. (I say rank 80 because bythat time you should have played a fair few warzones as a sniper....).

[Narthil]

I love it how I'm constantly bringing down pretty much everything (except tanks) in a single burst rotation with my level 15 sharpshooter gunslinger, even players 30 levels above. And since I'm in medium armor, I can almost tank on the spot without moving (if I move and CC, I simply don't die).

 

Using sub-50 pvp to talk balance is absurd. Bolster is screwed up on snipers and gunslingers. Your burst currently is highly dependent on being in cover. I regularly faceroll that AC one on one with my tanksin and don't find it to out burst a tank class with dps armor. Let alone marauders who I know from playing a GS to valor 69 will kill that class with way more functionality and burst. Its a good class but its not OP. So that is my discussion starting point.

 

.......................

 

For PvP yes. Just like there are problems with some AC's in PvE.

 

Well, maybe I exagerated with my buff idea, but the general consensus is that Sages do need a DPS buff of some sort, at least people who have played an endgame Sage agree. I would say the same about Commandos and Operatives as well.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Narthil