Dr. Strangelove or: How Sentinels are simply gimped

[Derian]

except you are missing the fact that there are a TON more people complaining than those that think everything is fine and dandy. this is *not* right.

 

you want information? try reading the first page of posts.

 

I don't see any information. I just see people whining but providing no scenarios to make a judgement off. Why would I listen to them when I don't experience it.

[Derian]

I'm not going to say that you're wrong... but I simply have not had the same experience. I play Watchman...

 

45 Sentinel on Jung Ma and I almost feel bad for how I dominate people in 1v1 PvP. I feel bad for the elites I wreck while staying at full health (I could do it with T7, Doc, or by myself if they are spell-based elites). Parts of the PvE content that guildies had trouble with (packs of strongs on the later planets, solo elites that pack strong abilities) I breeze through. The self-heals are great if you have a good crit rating (sitting near 20 right now).

 

Watchman tree dominates in PvP though - but I don't know what great evidence I can give you... I always get assassin medals in warzones? I regularly top 200k damage and almost always have the most damage on my team? I kill Imps that attack me in the open world while I'm fighting mobs? I've never died in open world PvP? I know that nothing I say will assuage your disappointment with the class, but I want others to know there is hope.

 

Combat may be broken or in a sad state - but the class is fine.

 

Kick on a 6 second CD is PvP nirvana :)

 

This is basically it. I'm willing to bed people complaining don't have the reflex to pull off their interrupt consistently.

[Derian]

Great assertions Coramac…

I have seen what my damage is like and it doesn’t seem to be an issue. When I bring it to groups and for one reason or an other we split on mobs I take my target down faster than any of the people I have grouped with and then assist them on finishing off there target.

There is an other thread on these boards where someone has said they moved from Watchmen to Combat and it worked better for them… Are you sure combat is that bad, or is it jst what you have heard or remember from 6 months ago in some beta build that simply doesn’t match how things are now?

I will be honest all of you guys who are bemoaning the Sentinel are leading me to worry. After playing this class that is a challenge and exiting, how am I going to play an alt and not get bored stiff if they are so much more powerful as you have all described.

 

Put it this way. Those who say the class is definitely viable and can do great things, are almost always people who have hit level 50 in the class, multiple times, in different stages of beta leading up to launch. Those who say the class has issues, can't do enough damage, almost always have never even gotten the class into level 30.

 

Pick which group you deem to most likely be more credible.

[evilek]

All kidding aside it's just saddening as the dual wielding jedi main dps class. We are being obliterated by weaker targets. And for those who say I'm level 15 and I'm great at pvp. Your not, your bolster, killing in a group and getting the killing blow means nothing to me. Solo kills is where true skill comes out. Not 15-2 in a WZ. 90k+ damage consistently means your skilled.

 

Lvl 15 here, last night WZ top 180k damage, 15 killing blows, 5 solo... I'm seriously worried how much you can do on lvl50 And mana mechanics? you're joking... want mana? go for shadow. It's one of most interesting mechanics of all classes.

 

That's true that this class requires sort of skill to play compared to others and that's what it makes interesting. I don't think you can have good results with clicking abilities etc.

[KaiLunn]

Yes, it does. When you concede that Ataru is a lost cause and learn Juyo, the class is absolutely viable and not remotely gimped.

 

If only one tree is viable out of three, I call it broken. That said, I realize everyone has a different definition of viable. (Some think viable is steamrolling, some think viable is being able to get by with or in spite of broken or awkward mechanics. Some consider viable to be equal effort provides equal rewards across all classes in a role. I personally mark viable as "I enjoy playing this with as few keyboard through monitor moments as possible.")

 

I think Combat is viable by several definitions. It does require a bit of concentration and you have to be on the ball. Watchman is certainly easier compared to Combat.

 

I don't think the class is broken. I think it works just fine. That does not mean I think the class is perfect. I absolutely think it could use a bit of polish and streamlining.

 

I also happen to agree with there being too many abilities. I've learned which ones are usable and which ones I am going to focus on.

 

Riposte? Waste of coding as far as I am concerned. Sure it's off the global cooldown, but it's not enough to balance the cost and the crap damage.

 

Two conditional extra damage abilities (pommel strike and the other one I can't remember), could easily be merged. To be completely honest, if I couldn't force the conditions, I'd have tossed those too. But since I can force the conditions and the extra damage is very nice, I have them bound and they are part of my "rotation."

 

And so on.

 

Hizoka is right, in the fact that there aren't too many abilities, if you take the time to learn which ones to use and which ones to toss. However, since you do have to toss abilities means there are extra & unnecessary (ie too many) abilities.

 

 

TL;DR version: Combat is a valid talent tree. The class is good, but could use some streamlining.

 

 

Put it this way. Those who say the class is definitely viable and can do great things, are almost always people who have hit level 50 in the class, multiple times, in different stages of beta leading up to launch. Those who say the class has issues, can't do enough damage, almost always have never even gotten the class into level 30.

 

Pick which group you deem to most likely be more credible.

 

Neither *and* both. It's a false dichotomy. There is a lot of middle ground between the two extremes. And viewpoints to match. (If nothing else, I am effectively in the first group, but agree with the second on a few key points. The class is *definitely* viable, but it has issues that could be streamlined.)

 

Personally, the most credible "group" is composed of the folks who see both sides of the argument and are willing to find a resolution that benefits both sides.

 

IE: The class works, but it could work better.

 

Not: This car barely runs and is a POS.

 

Not: This car runs just fine if you just jump start it or use a hill and pop the clutch.

 

 

-Kai-Lunn

 

Edit to avoid doublepost!

Edited December 21, 2011 by KaiLunn

[Renlotho]

First and foremost, I been playing MMO's since the late 90's so I am definitely not new to the genre or the industry itself. I played classes that were OP, UP and everything in between. The sentinel in this game has problems, many of them, and I honestly don't even have it figured out on how to fix them. Warrior-type classes in many MMO's (RIFT being the latest one come to mind) start a bit underpowered but eventually even out after a few patches. The problem with TOR is that our mechanic doesn't give the devs any wiggle room and I honestly don't believe we'll even see real changes.

 

My issues with the sentinel so far:

 

• 
  I am currently level 40. From the get-go, I fell in love with the combat spec and I used that to level... and it was absolutely hell. I know, I know, some of you might be thinking that I am a n00b who doesn't know how to play his class. I tested this game from Alpha all the way to the end of Beta. I studied the class through and through, theorycrafted with the best players I know. Simply put, it should not be this hard to level. The downtime is absolutely ridiculous and those elite encounters? Forget about it. Be ready to blow a ton of potions/cool downs to fight anything higher then trash.
  

 

• In addition to leveling, our class is extremely unforgiving. You can attempt to overlook this in PvE, as it's not a game-breaking issue. Wait until the general Sentinel population gets to 50 and starts to get into serious PvP, I promise you now our forums will be more disgruntled than they are now.
  Our class relies on us getting down a PERFECT rotation. Honestly, with the focus system, NOTHING can go wrong from A to Z (which we need to utilize 20 skills for) or were screwed. PvP is random and it's unpredictable. What we have now does not work.
  

 

• Last but not least, we need a way to somehow lower our downtime. Give each tree some sort of a life leech. Whether it's a small passive or anything along those lines, resting after each and every mob fight is not right. I played every class in the game to high 30's/early 40's in the beta. We are the exception here.
  

 

I know some of you "elite" players will jump in here and just tell me to L2P you effin noob.. and that's fine. Everyone can voice their opinion and I just voiced mine.

For those of you who see problems, please, ask for a change. Brainstorm with me. It will only get worse the higher level we get, I guarantee it like Men's Warehouse.

 

Thanks,

Ragana

Terentatek

 

QFT, Sentinels need at least a 5 to 10% DPS boost and one more CC breaker. Nowhere NEAR enough time on target. They could also use another interrupt or one on a shorter cool down. When you can't interrupt a BH enough to prevent their infini-heal strategy there is a problem.

[TheRealBrave]

Sentinels aren't gimped. They are perfectly fine in PvP. Amazing damage, good survivability cooldowns (later on) for a "glass cannon". Only changes we may need is getting another defensive oriented cooldown or two earlier on in our leveling.

[DevouringPlague]

Sentinels aren't gimped. They are perfectly fine in PvP. Amazing damage, good survivability cooldowns (later on) for a "glass cannon". Only changes we may need is getting another defensive oriented cooldown or two earlier on in our leveling.

 

So you're saying a glass cannon MELEE class without stealth is a good idea.

 

kk.

[TheRealBrave]

So you're saying a glass cannon MELEE class without stealth is a good idea.

 

kk.

 

We have very good defensive cooldowns, we get them later than would be ideal however.

[Aepheus]

Hey Ragana,

 

I was reading your thread today and I noticed you play on Terentatek server.

I'm currently playing on that server too and I'm going to be mianly playing Jedi Sentinel.

I would love to brainstorm with you about the class.

I don't have much experience with a sentinel but it seems like you do.

I would love your input and to bounce some ideas off you, maybe even a lil PVP together =).

My name is Kayo in game. Whats your main characters name. I'll send you some nice Adrenals and medpacks! haha

 

thnx,

Makeshifter "Kayo"

[Ragana]

Saber Ward, Rebuke and Call on the Force.

 

I hope to god you're kidding here? Saber Ward is a 2 minute CD? Call of the Force is a 20 minute cooldown?

 

Should I just sit there a twiddle my thumbs while I wait for these skills to cool down? Honestly? Our leveling mechanic revolves around this now?

Yes, it does. When you concede that Ataru is a lost cause and learn Juyo, the class is absolutely viable and not remotely gimped.

 

That when the hell is the point of multiple spec trees? Just for show? That sentence just threw your whole argument out.

 

The combat tree sets itself up as the damage dealing tree... and then it somehow explodes much like the Hindenburg.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Ragana

[Ragana]

Hey Ragana,

 

I was reading your thread today and I noticed you play on Terentatek server.

I'm currently playing on that server too and I'm going to be mianly playing Jedi Sentinel.

I would love to brainstorm with you about the class.

I don't have much experience with a sentinel but it seems like you do.

I would love your input and to bounce some ideas off you, maybe even a lil PVP together =).

My name is Kayo in game. Whats your main characters name. I'll send you some nice Adrenals and medpacks! haha

 

thnx,

Makeshifter "Kayo"

 

Hey bud, my Sentinel is sitting at 50, not being played. I am actually working on my Gunslinger toon now, the name is Ragana. Shoot me a tell whenever, I been playing the Sentinel since Alpha testing so I know ins and outs of the class.

[Hizoka]

Hey bud, my Sentinel is sitting at 50, not being played. I am actually working on my Gunslinger toon now, the name is Ragana. Shoot me a tell whenever, I been playing the Sentinel since Alpha testing so I know ins and outs of the class.

 

i got to throw a BS flag on that, if you think you need any defensive cooldowns for leveling then you are not playing right, plain and simple.

[Apocalypse-]

That when the hell is the point of multiple spec trees? Just for show? That sentence just threw your whole argument out.

 

The combat tree sets itself up as the damage dealing tree... and then it somehow explodes much like the Hindenburg.

 

2/3 trees are perfectly viable. That's not bad when you consider other classes have non-viable trees as well (scoundrel dirty fighting comes to mind since it's a 10m range now, also Assault Vanguard).

[Rankith]

i got to throw a BS flag on that, if you think you need any defensive cooldowns for leveling then you are not playing right, plain and simple.

 

Depending on the pulls Rebuke is borderline needed at times...

 

Of course, if you do all the quests, space combat and a little pvp on the side you will be overleveled by a little and be totally fine.

[Venator-Falco]

I hope to god you're kidding here? Saber Ward is a 2 minute CD? Call of the Force is a 20 minute cooldown?

 

Should I just sit there a twiddle my thumbs while I wait for these skills to cool down? Honestly? Our leveling mechanic revolves around this now?

 

For normal day to day moving through mobs, swap back and forth between rebuke and Ward.

For Strongs Swap back and forth between Pacify and Stasis, keep rolling through mobs and you will have Zen available at for 1 in for encounters yes when you hit an elite you will have to take a pause and have a think

And this isn’t entirely necessary, it just makes thing more efficient (Well except for the elites, you will need some solid cooldowns ready to go for them)

I expect to start a Fight at the slowest once every 30 seconds

You don’t need all the tools all the time…

[Dekadez]

Weak in solo'ing mid level?

 

What have you guys been smoking? I've been shredding mobs since I got Overload Saber, still using Kira.

 

Downtime annoying? Come now. 3 Seconds of introspection after each fight, hardly worth mentioning.

 

Sheesh. Sentinels are fine. All these urban legends about having to use over 35 skills, needing P-E-R-F-E-C-T rotations in order to do anything that resembles proper damage and the class being so complex you'll be a certified rocket scientist at level 50 is utter hogwash.

 

Refusing to use your defensive cooldowns regularly is just bad gaming on your part. I use either Rebuke or Pacify each time I'm pulling Strongs, Elites or 4+ packs. Blade Ward for the toughest fights, though I do not need that one a lot. Call on the Force? Hardly necessary.

 

In PvP we blow, but every melee blows in a game where there is an unlimited amount of CC and only one CC-breaking ability. Ranged is king in the PvP scene, because they root, cc, slow, root, cc, slow ad infinitum while throwing grenades on your noggin'.

 

sorry but if you were playing right you would know there is no rotation, and you would lose almost 0 hp

 

Nonsense. Downtime is an integral part of your leveling experience, even with proper management of companions and using droid CC.

 

Downtime is however not perceived to be as bad as in other MMO's: It's free and fast.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Dekadez

[ChipHazard]

Oh we don't blow in PvP. We can deal a ton of damage, we have some nasty roots/snares and we have our healing debuff (just as an example). Sure I think there is room for improvement. Edited December 22, 2011 by ChipHazard

[Dekadez]

Oh we don't blow in PvP. We can deal a ton of damage, we have some nasty roots/snares and we have our healing debuff (just as an example).

 

When we can get on a target and stay on it: Yes. Hardly the case when fighting higher level opponents who have a truckload of movement impairing skills.

[ChipHazard]

When we can get on a target and stay on it: Yes. Hardly the case when fighting higher level opponents who have a truckload of movement impairing skills.

 

That's only really been a problem for me in huttball. That isn't to say that we don't generally get cc'ed alot, because we do. Having force camo also helps.

[Bigbazz]

I've only played juggernaught (26 on beta) and sentinel (37 combat, on live) and I think they have both been great, I've not had any issues beating elites or quest bosses and levelling has been fast and smooth, I only used T7 and more recently Doc.

 

For what it's worth I played fury warrior on wow in tbc and wrath to the highest levels and was highly ranked on the log websites, wrote guides and contributed to elitist jerks. I was a very good player, I also played a warrior on Rift (champion). Means as were saying, it may be different at high levels and maybe the balance with other classes is off, but based on my experience with just those classes, I think both are great and present a nice challenge with the longer cooldown abilities.

 

I remember leveling my warrior in wow, and this has been much easier and smoother so far, with less deaths and less downtime, I only die in star wars when I do something stupid or *** pull half the imperial army. Pvp hasn't been great, but I've never seen an imperial whle leveling, so that has been just in battlegrounds which has been crazy because of the mixed levels, stupid idea whoever came up with that.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Bigbazz

[Pigdaddy]

First and foremost, I been playing MMO's since the late 90's so I am definitely not new to the genre or the industry itself. I played classes that were OP, UP and everything in between. The sentinel in this game has problems, many of them, and I honestly don't even have it figured out on how to fix them. Warrior-type classes in many MMO's (RIFT being the latest one come to mind) start a bit underpowered but eventually even out after a few patches. The problem with TOR is that our mechanic doesn't give the devs any wiggle room and I honestly don't believe we'll even see real changes.

 

My issues with the sentinel so far:

 

• 
  I am currently level 40. From the get-go, I fell in love with the combat spec and I used that to level... and it was absolutely hell. I know, I know, some of you might be thinking that I am a n00b who doesn't know how to play his class. I tested this game from Alpha all the way to the end of Beta. I studied the class through and through, theorycrafted with the best players I know. Simply put, it should not be this hard to level. The downtime is absolutely ridiculous and those elite encounters? Forget about it. Be ready to blow a ton of potions/cool downs to fight anything higher then trash.
  

 

• In addition to leveling, our class is extremely unforgiving. You can attempt to overlook this in PvE, as it's not a game-breaking issue. Wait until the general Sentinel population gets to 50 and starts to get into serious PvP, I promise you now our forums will be more disgruntled than they are now.
  Our class relies on us getting down a PERFECT rotation. Honestly, with the focus system, NOTHING can go wrong from A to Z (which we need to utilize 20 skills for) or were screwed. PvP is random and it's unpredictable. What we have now does not work.
  

 

• Last but not least, we need a way to somehow lower our downtime. Give each tree some sort of a life leech. Whether it's a small passive or anything along those lines, resting after each and every mob fight is not right. I played every class in the game to high 30's/early 40's in the beta. We are the exception here.
  

 

I know some of you "elite" players will jump in here and just tell me to L2P you effin noob.. and that's fine. Everyone can voice their opinion and I just voiced mine.

For those of you who see problems, please, ask for a change. Brainstorm with me. It will only get worse the higher level we get, I guarantee it like Men's Warehouse.

 

Thanks,

Ragana

Terentatek

 

 

I believed you till you said alpha.. unless your a BW/EA employee no way where you in alpha as it was inhouse.