Dr. Strangelove or: How Sentinels are simply gimped

[McDaniels]

The class needs a complete overhaul, to be perfectly frank, or at least one of the trees does.

 

Annihilation / Watchman works FINE in PvE, and is the only viable spec in PvP even if it does suck, but Carnage / Combat (from now on referred to as C)... Oh, lawd, C...

 

How terribly can you design a talent tree? It's like they combined windfury enhancement shams from vanilla WoW with a gimped WoW fury warrior and went "THERE THAT'S DONE".

 

I can see, from looking at the C tree, that it's MEANT to be a burst damage-y PvP-ish tree. It's got catch up mechanics with +15% run speed on the lightsaber form, it's meant to have burst DPS from that lightsaber form etc...

 

But it's random proc and low damage? lolwat. When you see sorcerers doing 2.5+k damage per hit regularly in PvP, you start to realise that this talent tree is TERRIBLE.

 

Nevermind the fact that all our abilities have a silly cooldown based off resource collection. That'd be fine in PvE, but in PvP it's downright unacceptable when a sorcerer or whatever can just outright proc their CDs no matter what.

 

OR the fact we have no CC so even our sustained damage can't do much. OR the real distinct lack of mortal strike-esque abilities (yes we have like ONE and that's crap). OR a million other issues like survivability, CC removal etc.

 

Some games have balance issues.

 

This game has balance ISSUES.

 

/agree

[jaytrust]

First and foremost, I been playing MMO's since the late 90's so I am definitely not new to the genre or the industry itself. I played classes that were OP, UP and everything in between. The sentinel in this game has problems, many of them, and I honestly don't even have it figured out on how to fix them. Warrior-type classes in many MMO's (RIFT being the latest one come to mind) start a bit underpowered but eventually even out after a few patches. The problem with TOR is that our mechanic doesn't give the devs any wiggle room and I honestly don't believe we'll even see real changes.

 

My issues with the sentinel so far:

 

• 
  I am currently level 40. From the get-go, I fell in love with the combat spec and I used that to level... and it was absolutely hell. I know, I know, some of you might be thinking that I am a n00b who doesn't know how to play his class. I tested this game from Alpha all the way to the end of Beta. I studied the class through and through, theorycrafted with the best players I know. Simply put, it should not be this hard to level. The downtime is absolutely ridiculous and those elite encounters? Forget about it. Be ready to blow a ton of potions/cool downs to fight anything higher then trash.
  

 

• In addition to leveling, our class is extremely unforgiving. You can attempt to overlook this in PvE, as it's not a game-breaking issue. Wait until the general Sentinel population gets to 50 and starts to get into serious PvP, I promise you now our forums will be more disgruntled than they are now.
  Our class relies on us getting down a PERFECT rotation. Honestly, with the focus system, NOTHING can go wrong from A to Z (which we need to utilize 20 skills for) or were screwed. PvP is random and it's unpredictable. What we have now does not work.
  

 

• Last but not least, we need a way to somehow lower our downtime. Give each tree some sort of a life leech. Whether it's a small passive or anything along those lines, resting after each and every mob fight is not right. I played every class in the game to high 30's/early 40's in the beta. We are the exception here.
  

 

I know some of you "elite" players will jump in here and just tell me to L2P you effin noob.. and that's fine. Everyone can voice their opinion and I just voiced mine.

For those of you who see problems, please, ask for a change. Brainstorm with me. It will only get worse the higher level we get, I guarantee it like Men's Warehouse.

 

Thanks,

Ragana

Terentatek

 

I agree, we have way to many abilities!

[Zotix]

The problem IMO, in PvP, is our stun. Our stun is a ranged channel stun. This has no synergy with the class. For a melee class that is suppose to stay on someone, you need a stun that is "fire and forget". The stun doesn't even need to do damage really, or have range. It makes ZERO sense for a Sage, to have a ranged instant cast stun, while the Sentinel has a ranged channel stun. Give the Sage the channeled range stun, and give the Sentinel a 4m instant cast stun.

 

When I did warzones in the late teens, it was awful as a Sentinel if you didn't have reliable heals. Yes, you can do damage, but there is so much survivability on our targets that we aren't able to deal maximum damage often. By 18, Sages have a PBAoE knockback, a ranged stun, a "mez" essentially, and a speed boost; all while being able to deal just as much damage as you from range. If you managed to get one low, after they used their PBAoE and knockback, they will just "mez" you and then sprint away. It's not just Sages, but most other classes have ranged CC as well. There is a reason why 90% of the top spots in all warzones are ranged classes. Sure you'll see a Knight, or Sith warrior pop up there but it's far and few between, and most likely they needed a healbot to do it.

 

The second issue is survivability in PvE. I'm 33, and having serious issue with combat spec and leveling. I'm in top of the line gear, either prototype or the best modded oranges possible. Every single fight I'm at 2/3 life or under when the fight is over. This is using Kira. I switched to our first droid, and he's a bit better at holding aggro, thus leaving me with more life after a fight. I only switched to this just before bed last night so I'll see tonight if it actually is better. I've also switched to watchman, so I'll see if that tree is more efficient at leveling.

 

Is the class broken? No. Does it have issues? Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if we are one of the first classes to get changes. For PvP, I also think that in 3 months when a 50 Sentinel fights another class that gear will play a much larger role in mitigating damage, than a bolstered level 15 fighting another level 15. I also wouldn't be surprised to see ranged DPS take a 10-15% damage nerf across the board in the next few months.

[marsm]

Jeez buncha whiners in here huh. I did roll a trooper after i started with the sentinel, just to see. It is easier to level up in lower levels for sure. But as far as the sentinel being underpowered I really don't see it. It takes some figuring to get the most dps from consecutive abiltites but isn't that what a person wants to do? Wouldn't be any fun if the game isn't challenging. I got bored with my trooper and will stick with my sentinel to the end now.

[marsm]

Oh and I think Ive used a total of 5 health packs so far for PvE. Get better armor or learn how to use your abilities properly. C2 N2 is a hec of a healer too. Just a hint.

[SunwindIon]

How terribly can you design a talent tree? It's like they combined windfury enhancement shams from vanilla WoW with a gimped WoW fury warrior and went "THERE THAT'S DONE".

 

Dude. I played an enhancement shaman in WoW, and Sentinel feels EXACTLY the same, gimped as hell and constantly trying to live up to the other classes standards. Agree completely with the OP, Sentinel is broken as hell.

[SunwindIon]

Looks like Sentinel is a class for elitists that are mistaking overcomplicated, unintuitive and poorly designed for challenging and hard to master.

 

THIS. and all those people jump on their imaginary high-horses and pretend that people that have a problem with it are obviously just playing wrong or are "noobs".

[Derian]

THIS. and all those people jump on their imaginary high-horses and pretend that people that have a problem with it are obviously just playing wrong or are "noobs".

 

You are. The highest DPS I ever saw in a WZ was set by a Sentinel. How do you explain that?

 

If we can play the class fine, without all these issues. How do you explain that? What is the variable? The variable is the player. We're using the same class you are. Please explain these before continuing onto your next QQ. We aren't on a high horse, we are trying to help people maximize the potential of the class, th ough you can't maximize the potential of the class when people immediately say "well I was a blah blah ablah in this irrelevant game."

 

guess what? This isn't WoW, DAOC or any of those other games. It's SWTOR. Your time as an enhancement Shaman is irrelevant. I have hundreds of hours devoted to Sentinel on a PVP server, rather than whine, ask for help, and explain what rotations you are using, what shortcomings you have etc.

 

How are you approaching these situations in which you fail? What skills are you using? Are you constantly using your interrupt? Give us some information, or else you're just whining.

[SunwindIon]

If we can play the class fine, without all these issues. How do you explain that? What is the variable? The variable is the player.

 

except you are missing the fact that there are a TON more people complaining than those that think everything is fine and dandy. this is *not* right.

 

you want information? try reading the first page of posts.

Edited December 20, 2011 by SunwindIon

[marsm]

Wow can't even put effort into a video game huh? Just wanna blow through and be like "there finished it!". Lame. Play the game and quit b*******. If you don't like the sentinel roll something else easier and get off here.

[SunwindIon]

Wow can't even put effort into a video game huh? Just wanna blow through and be like "there finished it!". Lame. Play the game and quit b*******. If you don't like the sentinel roll something else easier and get off here.

 

when you start paying my monthly subscription, you can tell me what to do

[Hizoka]

except you are missing the fact that there are a TON more people complaining than those that think everything is fine and dandy. this is *not* right.

 

you want information? try reading the first page of posts.

 

its not a ton its a half a dozen that keep making new posts thinking they will get more sympathy.

[RamzaBehoulve]

when you start paying my monthly subscription, you can tell me what to do

 

See, the problem with your argument is that you disregard his opinion as well. He is also paying his monthly subscription, so why should your whining change the gameplay he is enjoying right now?

[Hizoka]

See, the problem with your argument is that you disregard his opinion as well. He is also paying his monthly subscription, so why should your whining change the gameplay he is enjoying right now?

 

self importance

[RamzaBehoulve]

except you are missing the fact that there are a TON more people complaining than those that think everything is fine and dandy. this is *not* right.

 

you want information? try reading the first page of posts.

 

Hum, what fact? Are you seriously suggesting a few forum goers complaining actually represent meaningful statistical evidence? Laughable. The majority of people enjoying the class are simply playing. Only disgruntled players, theorycrafters and people looking for some insight come to the forums. That's a very low % of the player base.

 

So, no, we are not missing any "fact".

 

Sentinel might have a few shortcomings in a some areas, but overall it's fairly well done. I repeat myself a lot on this issue, but Sentinel simply does not have a middle ground, it's either you are very bad or you are very good, no average.

Edited December 20, 2011 by RamzaBehoulve

[Venator-Falco]

No, undoubtedly you are unable to see it while others are spelling it out for you. Progression is borked. The focus on a focus system is borked. Talents need work. Yes, aoe needs to be added. Then there are the overall design issues, like having the most complicated resource system married up with the most complicated combat system (melee). Which is possibly one of the reason shadows are considered the best tank/dps and melee pvp class. They dont have to mess with focus.

 

But the central flaw in you premise is that because I dont LOVE the class and think it is the best designed MMO class ever, that I dont understand it or get it. I can level fine with it, but compared to other classes it is poor. Period. Maybe in the 40s that will change. But there is no excuse to have it comparatively sux AT ANY level range.

There are a lot of people who have shown they enjoy playing it, and haven’t had issues with the class or its level progression, so it obviously isn’t “Borked” (You still have never defined that term) Have you played the class over mid 20’s yet BTW? I am now 29 and have enjoyed all of it. Why more does AOE Need to be added (Force Sweep is AOE I will point out) if the Sentinel had a second AOE attack it would be able to kill groups of equal level standard mobs in two swings. That seems more than a little overpowered to me.

I don’t “LOVE” the Sentinel, and don’t think it is the best Class ever devised either, but I accept it for what it is. There could afford to be some tweaks, but it isn’t Broken and you in one of your threads during beta identified that there were only one or two things that really needed work, as I recall you had a list of 4 things and only one was particularly noticeable (And even then not a class changer)

The design issues you describe of having the resource management are what makes the class enjoyable and fun to play. This is what makes the Sentinel different and exciting. If you don’t like it, that is unfortunate, but there is nothing wrong with it, It plays extremely well. If you don’t like it there is an other Melee DPS Jedi class in the Game, it is called the Shadow. Maybe that would be more to your liking.

Looks like Sentinel is a class for elitists that are mistaking overcomplicated, unintuitive and poorly designed for challenging and hard to master.

Not at all, Yes it takes a little more thinking to make the most out of the Sentinel, and it is not over complicated, just takes a little concentration. You can play the Sentinel at a basic level pretty easily, but to make the most out of it you have to learn some of the intricacies, So it is playable but lends its self to coming alive as you get more and more into it. That sounds like extremely good game design to me.

yeah. To clarify some of the problems again.

Too many skills, and too many mid- high cooldown moves. Yes, relative power when sabre ward, guarded by the force, valorous call, etc are up is high. but balancing a class to be effective only when high cd moves are up is a terrible way to design a class.

So you think the class should be at full power all the time? Have all their tools that you would use for taking on a boss mob available for taking out yard trash? That would make the game exceedingly easy.

Personally I use one of my options each battle cycling through them (Ward/Rebuke for groups Stasis/Pacify for strongs and All of em for elites)

When you get to Story Bosses then you pull out the big cooldowns. This seems very well balanced to me. The only issue I have with it is that if you fail then you have to wait 20 minutes for an other attempt.

Combat is terrible. Conversely, while the "sents are fine", are 100% watchmen, the "sents are unplayable" are 100% combat.

Bovine Excrement!

I am one of the people who is enjoying playing the Sentinel and finds the power/difficulty/challenge quite good and I am playing 100% Combat

You are making assertions that are baseless,

Keep playing that broken record. you are the only one saying its too hard. everyone else is saying its annoying, and poorly designed. Is it too hard for you?

Actually No… I am definitely saying it is well designed and not broken at all, and if you look around Hizoka and I are not alone in this. There are a lot of people who like the class design as it is.

What I don’t get is why people want to change it.

Don’t like it?

Don’t play it!

But stop trying to break it for those of us who do like it.

[Coramac]

So you think the class should be at full power all the time? Have all their tools that you would use for taking on a boss mob available for taking out yard trash? That would make the game exceedingly easy.

Personally I use one of my options each battle cycling through them (Ward/Rebuke for groups Stasis/Pacify for strongs and All of em for elites)

When you get to Story Bosses then you pull out the big cooldowns. This seems very well balanced to me. The only issue I have with it is that if you fail then you have to wait 20 minutes for an other attempt.

 

He's actually right. Sure, you can play and beat Skyrim with an orc who specs into sneak and light armor and beat the game with heavy armor and a 2 hander. Grats. It's single player. This is a multiplayer game. You need to bring something to the table. Sentinel is lacking somewhat in this area.

 

Bovine Excrement!

I am one of the people who is enjoying playing the Sentinel and finds the power/difficulty/challenge quite good and I am playing 100% Combat

You are making assertions that are baseless,

 

Combat is garbage at your level. The only reason you think it's legit is for one of two reasons:

1.) You are OK with being a wasted slot in a group and carried.

2.) You are OK with being inferior to other specs.

 

Actually No… I am definitely saying it is well designed and not broken at all, and if you look around Hizoka and I are not alone in this. There are a lot of people who like the class design as it is.

What I don’t get is why people want to change it.

Don’t like it?

Don’t play it!

But stop trying to break it for those of us who do like it.

 

People thought Enron was going places and had a great business model too. The fact of the matter is Combat is total garbage until you get Blade Storm. Then, it just doesn't make sense and is still inferior.

[Hizoka]

He's actually right. Sure, you can play and beat Skyrim with an orc who specs into sneak and light armor and beat the game with heavy armor and a 2 hander. Grats. It's single player. This is a multiplayer game. You need to bring something to the table. Sentinel is lacking somewhat in this area.

 

 

 

Combat is garbage at your level. The only reason you think it's legit is for one of two reasons:

1.) You are OK with being a wasted slot in a group and carried.

2.) You are OK with being inferior to other specs.

 

 

 

People thought Enron was going places and had a great business model too. The fact of the matter is Combat is total garbage until you get Blade Storm. Then, it just doesn't make sense and is still inferior.

then seeing how you have an epic 6 days of time played witht he class... what is it missing, why is it dead weight, why is it in inferior.

 

 

 

The reals answers are its missing nothing, it has the best group utiltiy in game

 

people are dead eight no class is dead weight

 

 

and it is superior in terms of DPS to every other class, it is in no way inferior unless you are just not good at it.

[Toppins]

I'm not going to say that you're wrong... but I simply have not had the same experience. I play Watchman...

 

45 Sentinel on Jung Ma and I almost feel bad for how I dominate people in 1v1 PvP. I feel bad for the elites I wreck while staying at full health (I could do it with T7, Doc, or by myself if they are spell-based elites). Parts of the PvE content that guildies had trouble with (packs of strongs on the later planets, solo elites that pack strong abilities) I breeze through. The self-heals are great if you have a good crit rating (sitting near 20 right now).

 

Watchman tree dominates in PvP though - but I don't know what great evidence I can give you... I always get assassin medals in warzones? I regularly top 200k damage and almost always have the most damage on my team? I kill Imps that attack me in the open world while I'm fighting mobs? I've never died in open world PvP? I know that nothing I say will assuage your disappointment with the class, but I want others to know there is hope.

 

Combat may be broken or in a sad state - but the class is fine.

 

Kick on a 6 second CD is PvP nirvana

[Venator-Falco]

Great assertions Coramac…

I have seen what my damage is like and it doesn’t seem to be an issue. When I bring it to groups and for one reason or an other we split on mobs I take my target down faster than any of the people I have grouped with and then assist them on finishing off there target.

There is an other thread on these boards where someone has said they moved from Watchmen to Combat and it worked better for them… Are you sure combat is that bad, or is it jst what you have heard or remember from 6 months ago in some beta build that simply doesn’t match how things are now?

I will be honest all of you guys who are bemoaning the Sentinel are leading me to worry. After playing this class that is a challenge and exiting, how am I going to play an alt and not get bored stiff if they are so much more powerful as you have all described.

[Hizoka]

Great assertions Coramac…

I have seen what my damage is like and it doesn’t seem to be an issue. When I bring it to groups and for one reason or an other we split on mobs I take my target down faster than any of the people I have grouped with and then assist them on finishing off there target.

There is an other thread on these boards where someone has said they moved from Watchmen to Combat and it worked better for them… Are you sure combat is that bad, or is it jst what you have heard or remember from 6 months ago in some beta build that simply doesn’t match how things are now?

I will be honest all of you guys who are bemoaning the Sentinel are leading me to worry. After playing this class that is a challenge and exiting, how am I going to play an alt and not get bored stiff if they are so much more powerful as you have all described.

 

they are not more powerful, just easier and a simple mind sees easier as better

[killerrayzz]

I am playing as Watchman, but after almost every fight of 1-3 normal enemies that are a few levels lower than me (I am 23, they are like 19) I need to take a break because I am around 60% hp, and I don't know why...all of my gear is fine and I know my rotations pretty well.

[Hizoka]

I am playing as Watchman, but after almost every fight of 1-3 normal enemies that are a few levels lower than me (I am 23, they are like 19) I need to take a break because I am around 60% hp, and I don't know why...all of my gear is fine and I know my rotations pretty well.

 

sorry but if you were playing right you would know there is no rotation, and you would lose almost 0 hp

[Apocalypse-]

I have level 50 sentinels in my guild. Nothing changes.

 

Yes, it does. When you concede that Ataru is a lost cause and learn Juyo, the class is absolutely viable and not remotely gimped.

 

I just finished leveling my third 50 sentinel since September, first time through I went by tooltips and thought Ataru would be great. I had to break myself of that mentality and respec to actually get the most of the class. Ataru is gimped, Sentinels are not. Doesn't help that Ataru sents try to gear crit/surge when they're better off with accuracy/power or accuracy/surge. The focus tree requires a completely different mindset, it is not about individual performance but moreso about team performance by getting everything very low on health and setting up everyone else. It does this job admirably, though it's definitely not a mindset for everyone.

 

Leveling is an issue, especially in the 20-35 range, but it is easily correctable. The first problem is the placement of the skills in trees, I did a long post on this in the beta boards, so I'm not going to repeat myself, but moving talents up/down trees and locking them by lightsaber form will resolve this issue. The second problem is simply that this range is where itemization falls short, and the sentinel doesn't have a healer companion yet to remedy the situation. You get your healer around 34-37 on sent and far earlier on marauder, and once you have your healer, leveling is easy (this is true of all classes since the nerf of tank companions). At 40, you get your upper PvP set, and it's all green from there.

 

@MBirkhofer

Juyo Zen already got halved, lower it any more and you might as well remove it. To say that we can do equal healing to a healer is laughable. Beyond that, anyone using Zen every time they get full centering doesn't understand the power of Trancendence, or is playing against a team that isn't using movement to their advantage. As for Merciless Strike, it is 90% a drop in replacement for Blade Storm in a rotation, with blade storm only being used as a KB attempt if dispatch fails to do that. Even then, the times when both dispatch and force leap are down are quite rare.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Apocalypse-

[RavenDB]

But then the problem is, why should anyone bother playing a "gimped" class to 50, when you can easily roll another less stressful class and recieve the same is not better results?

 

It's simply the fact that the class as is has underwhelming mechanics and performance which will result in alot of people not wanting to play it. Yes there is a possibility that at 50 it is a much better class, but not everything is about endgame. There should be balance or near balance from beginning to end.

 

Of course this is how I feel it should be, my personal opinion.

 

Completely true! WHy waste time on something broken, when something working works better...