Dr. Strangelove or: How Sentinels are simply gimped

[xerofive]

This class is seriously ruining this game for me. I loved KOTOR, and what Star Wars fan doesn't fantasize about being a Jedi, but after picking this class, I have hit an absolute brick wall. I have wasted over 25k credits on repairs, stims, and medpacks trying to get through the end of chapter 1, and I still cannot defeat the final boss. I have played World of Warcraft for years and had zero problems as an endgame raiding blood elf hunter, but it's clear to me now that BioWare doesn't want someone of my skill level playing the Sentinel and to be honestly, after wasting 5 days playing this class which is obviously going to cause me to have nothing but frustration, I'm not even sure if I want to play this game anymore.

 

Seriously

 

If you love the "difficulty" of this class and the "challenge" of the endgame bosses, great. You may have just won. I may just go back to WoW after all, but don't cry when a year from now, you're seeing server merger after server merger because people are having the same issues I'm having. I hope that isn't the case, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me.

Edited December 20, 2011 by xerofive

[Derian]

lol after spending my entire time on a planet upgrading T7, I get to the final boss of Chapter 1 and it's says, "You must use Kira to continue."

 

wow...

 

I'm sorry but if you're having trouble clearing a boss it's your fault. I went right through that thing with Kira.

[Derian]

This class is seriously ruining this game for me. I loved KOTOR, and what Star Wars fan doesn't fantasize about being a Jedi, but after picking this class, I have hit an absolute brick wall. I have wasted over 25k credits on repairs, stims, and medpacks trying to get through the end of chapter 1, and I still cannot defeat the final boss. I have played World of Warcraft for years and had zero problems as an endgame raiding blood elf hunter, but it's clear to me now that BioWare doesn't want someone of my skill level playing the Sentinel and to be honestly, after wasting 5 days playing this class which is obviously going to cause me to have nothing but frustration, I'm not even sure if I want to play this game anymore.

 

Seriously

 

If you love the "difficulty" of this class and the "challenge" of the endgame bosses, great. You may have just won. I may just go back to WoW after all, but don't cry when a year from now, you're seeing server merger after server merger because people are having the same issues I'm having. I hope that isn't the case, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me.

 

This all points to your lack of skill. I played WoW for 10 months. Don't ruin the class for us because you aren't good at using it. lol. I think I died twice at most on that boss. Come on man, nut up.

[Hizoka]

Exactly, if people actually played other classes, then they would see, comparatively, the poor, inelegant design involved with sentinels. Is sentinel ok as is....ugh, if you didnt know any better, hadnt played other classes, and were masochistic, yeah, its kind of "ok" in a craptastic sort of way.

 

you keep saying that but you are very very wrong. just because something is dumbed down does not make it a better class.

 

the class is fantastic, its just not easy like a wow class.

[Hizoka]

No, undoubtedly you are unable to see it while others are spelling it out for you. Progression is borked. The focus on a focus system is borked. Talents need work. Yes, aoe needs to be added. Then there are the overall design issues, like having the most complicated resource system married up with the most complicated combat system (melee). Which is possibly one of the reason shadows are considered the best tank/dps and melee pvp class. They dont have to mess with focus.

 

But the central flaw in you premise is that because I dont LOVE the class and think it is the best designed MMO class ever, that I dont understand it or get it. I can level fine with it, but compared to other classes it is poor. Period. Maybe in the 40s that will change. But there is no excuse to have it comparatively sux AT ANY level range.

 

if progression was in any way messed up people would not be 50 with sentinels.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Hizoka

[Sznur]

Looks like Sentinel is a class for elitists that are mistaking overcomplicated, unintuitive and poorly designed for challenging and hard to master.

[Moldrany]

The sentinel isn't underpowered. I haven't played other classes, but it might be that the sentinel is just harder to learn than other classes. If you optimise your sentinels play, you can perfectly compete with all other classes in PvE and PvP

 

And few years ago I have played much harder MMOs than this, I don't really understand why everyone gives up and rerolls just because the leveling isn't a grind without any deaths to 50.

 

It is fine to wipe in PvE raid boss wipes 100x times just to get the boss down, but it's not fine to die a few times in PvE because you just started the game and haven't mastered the class yet?

[Hizoka]

It is fine to wipe in PvE raid boss wipes 100x times just to get the boss down, but it's not fine to die a few times in PvE because you just started the game and haven't mastered the class yet?

 

that is what most think... it is as if they cannot be overpowered when soloing its broken, if the fail ar playing right the class is broken. So many seem to want the ability to instantly win when under geared and under leveled and not have to think about mechanics

[MBirkhofer]

Looks like Sentinel is a class for elitists that are mistaking overcomplicated, unintuitive and poorly designed for challenging and hard to master.

 

Pretty succinct way of putting it.

[Hizoka]

Pretty succinct way of putting it.

 

but incorrect

[ExiledOne]

Chiming in, I find focus or watchman tree to be much easier with leveling as a sentinel.

Watchman more so than Focus, sadly.

There is so much going on in melee range that having to take your eyes off visual cues of when to vacate an area, who to target and kill, along with worrying about maintaining focus and which abilities to rotate kind of makes my head hurt after a few hours of playing.

[Resraely]

They nerfed DPS warriors because of what happend in rift

[Resraely]

There is so much going on in melee range that having to take your eyes off visual cues of when to vacate an area, who to target and kill, along with worrying about maintaining focus and which abilities to rotate kind of makes my head hurt after a few hours of playing.

 

Let the visual cues and other combat info flow into your brain without effort. Pretty soon everything will become second nature. Don't try to play, just let it happen. Young padawan.

[MBirkhofer]

Chiming in, I find focus or watchman tree to be much easier with leveling as a sentinel.

Watchman more so than Focus, sadly.

There is so much going on in melee range that having to take your eyes off visual cues of when to vacate an area, who to target and kill, along with worrying about maintaining focus and which abilities to rotate kind of makes my head hurt after a few hours of playing.

 

yeah. To clarify some of the problems again.

 

Too many skills, and too many mid- high cooldown moves. Yes, relative power when sabre ward, guarded by the force, valorous call, etc are up is high. but balancing a class to be effective only when high cd moves are up is a terrible way to design a class. 3min mages/rogues of early WoW.

power gain, and skill distribution is poor. Sents are really weak for a very long time relatively. Better pacing of skill gain during leveling would be huge.

 

Watchman has 2-3 incredibly overpowered moves/talents that make up for the overall weakness of sentinels. This is largely where the "derp, l2p" people are coming from. everyone of them is a watchman, and everyone isn't really looking at the class/skills objectively. so the don't see merc slash being notably stronger then everything else in every tree. nor how much the 15% crit on burns, and the 2% +1% healing is. again, compared to everything else, including other classes. Watchman meeting or beating combat medics in healing. That is not sentinels are fine. that is zen for watchman, and merc zeal is incredibly overpowered. It WILL be nerfed, and where will that leave you, if the rest of the class is garbage?

 

Combat is terrible. Conversely, while the "sents are fine", are 100% watchmen, the "sents are unplayable" are 100% combat. An entire tree working around 100% crit chance bladestorms. well, you have a decent crit chance even without 100% buff. And everything in the tree is kindof weak. Blade rush needs to do a good 50% more damage. Prec strike should as well likely.

Combats zen is god awful. 43+ its ok... but still fairly weak overall. and nothing compared to focus/watchmans.

Pretty sure the +move speed doesnt work. and if it does, needs to be much stronger.

Look at focus, even zealous leap does MORE then bladestorm does. FOCUS even outbursts combat.

 

Early game vs late and pvp.

first, dont pvp on your sent until level 18. leg sweep, kick, and crippling throw. Trying to pvp before then is god awful. sents have 2 main advantages in pvp. crippling throw healing debuff. And instant, on the move attacks. All those other classes, need to stand still to do their big stuff. You don't. Which is where leg sweep comes in. while knockbacks can get you away, the slows tied to them, are shorter then the slow on your leg slash. as a setn, you can and should get on top of someone, and stay on top of them. They can not run away. Its a fight to the death.

Valor. That ability to put out constant dps on the move, and debuff healing, becomes really important as you collect pvp gear. As survival goes up, you get more relevant.

Edited December 20, 2011 by MBirkhofer

[DevouringPlague]

yeah. To clarify some of the problems again.

 

Too many skills, and too many mid- high cooldown moves. Yes, relative power when sabre ward, guarded by the force, valorous call, etc are up is high. but balancing a class to be effective only when high cd moves are up is a terrible way to design a class. 3min mages/rogues of early WoW.

power gain, and skill distribution is poor. Sents are really weak for a very long time relatively. Better pacing of skill gain during leveling would be huge.

 

Watchman has 2-3 incredibly overpowered moves/talents that make up for the overall weakness of sentinels. This is largely where the "derp, l2p" people are coming from. everyone of them is a watchman, and everyone isn't really looking at the class/skills objectively. so the don't see merc slash being notably stronger then everything else in every tree. nor how much the 15% crit on burns, and the 2% +1% healing is. again, compared to everything else, including other classes. Watchman meeting or beating combat medics in healing. That is not sentinels are fine. that is zen for watchman, and merc zeal is incredibly overpowered. It WILL be nerfed, and where will that leave you, if the rest of the class is garbage?

 

Combat is terrible. Conversely, while the "sents are fine", are 100% watchmen, the "sents are unplayable" are 100% combat. An entire tree working around 100% crit chance bladestorms. well, you have a decent crit chance even without 100% buff. And everything in the tree is kindof weak. Blade rush needs to do a good 50% more damage. Prec strike should as well likely.

Combats zen is god awful. 43+ its ok... but still fairly weak overall. and nothing compared to focus/watchmans.

Look at focus, even zealous leap does MORE then bladestorm does. FOCUS even outbursts combat.

 

Pretty much what I've been saying. I think Watchman needs a lot of alterations too, though.

[Hizoka]

yeah. To clarify some of the problems again.

 

Too many skills, and too many mid- high cooldown moves. Yes, relative power when sabre ward, guarded by the force, valorous call, etc are up is high. but balancing a class to be effective only when high cd moves are up is a terrible way to design a class. 3min mages/rogues of early WoW.

power gain, and skill distribution is poor. Sents are really weak for a very long time relatively. Better pacing of skill gain during leveling would be huge.

 

Watchman has 2-3 incredibly overpowered moves/talents that make up for the overall weakness of sentinels. This is largely where the "derp, l2p" people are coming from. everyone of them is a watchman, and everyone isn't really looking at the class/skills objectively. so the don't see merc slash being notably stronger then everything else in every tree. nor how much the 15% crit on burns, and the 2% +1% healing is. again, compared to everything else, including other classes. Watchman meeting or beating combat medics in healing. That is not sentinels are fine. that is zen for watchman, and merc zeal is incredibly overpowered. It WILL be nerfed, and where will that leave you, if the rest of the class is garbage?

 

Combat is terrible. Conversely, while the "sents are fine", are 100% watchmen, the "sents are unplayable" are 100% combat. An entire tree working around 100% crit chance bladestorms. well, you have a decent crit chance even without 100% buff. And everything in the tree is kindof weak. Blade rush needs to do a good 50% more damage. Prec strike should as well likely.

Combats zen is god awful. 43+ its ok... but still fairly weak overall. and nothing compared to focus/watchmans.

Look at focus, even zealous leap does MORE then bladestorm does. FOCUS even outbursts combat.

there are not too many abilities, there just might be too much for some people to handle, THAT IS NOT BROKEN. Just because you are not able to play the class well does not make it broken. There are people who are level 50 who never touched the watchmen tree.

 

You are looking at things wrong. For instance the watchmen tree, its built for longer fights, thats why merciless slash does the damage it does with the buff that it gives, you have just over 30 seconds of ramp up time. Very little burst but very good sustained damage. Where as combat has very good burst and no ramp up. Zen is different for both because one is for helping a fight last longer (healing) the other is for ending a fight faster(lower gcd and cost on blade rush).

 

The tools are all there to make both the Sentinel specific trees work for what ever application you are doing. they also have raid utility unmatched by any other class in the form of the speed buff and damage buffs.

 

Combat is a good spec, its fast paced burst damage, watchmen is methodical and consistant. When the devs first talked about the class they said it was a pure DPS with multiple play styles. That is exactly what it is. The only caveat is that its not a class for everyone and if you think its so terrible and so broken and unplayable then don't play it, play something easier or more enjoyable to you, because you really seem to hate the class.

 

One more thing, if a watchmen sentinel ever out heals a heal speced healer then get a new healer.

 

Bottom line there is nothing broken about the class there are just people who seem to think it should be completely different then what it is, and i highly bought after years of making it what it is the Bioware devs are gonna up and make it a simple as the arcane mage in wow. If you do not like how it played then do not play it.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Hizoka

[DevouringPlague]

Bottom line there is nothing broken about the class there are just people who seem to think it should be completely different then what it is, and i highly bought after years of making it what it is the Bioware devs are gonna up and make it a simple as the arcane mage in wow. If you do not like how it played then do not play it.

 

How dare people think it should be a non-stealth high-DPS melee class with multiple viable talent trees?! Clearly it should be a terrible low-DPS melee class with a single viable talent tree!

[MBirkhofer]

there are not too many abilities, there just might be too much for some people to handle, THAT IS NOT BROKEN. Just because you are not able to play the class well does not make it broken. There are people who are level 50 who never touched the watchmen tree.

Keep playing that broken record. you are the only one saying its too hard. everyone else is saying its annoying, and poorly designed. Is it too hard for you?

And is making it to 50 somehow a qualifier for being good or bad?

You are looking at things wrong. For instance the watchmen tree, its built for longer fights, thats why merciless slash does the damage it does with the buff that it gives, you have just over 30 seconds of ramp up time. Very little burst but very good sustained damage. Where as combat has very good burst and no ramp up. Zen is different for both because one is for helping a fight last longer (healing) the other is for ending a fight faster(lower gcd and cost on blade rush).

This is completely wrong. Merc slash is built for longer fights. What part of it does more damage then master strike instantly are you not seeing? It does more then that 100% crit bladestorm. It is more burst then combat has, right out of the gate. So its both more burst AND more sustained damage. blade rush isn't burst. its sustained. its damage is barely more then a regular slash. it lands about the middle between a slash and a bladestorm. And then provides a buff to provide procs of ataru. Again sustained damage. not burst. Combat doesnt has much burst at all. Even focus burst more with 100% damage/crit sweeps, and zealous leap. (Never mind zen which is huge burst) Combat is the WORST burst of all 3.

Reduced gcd on blade rush doesn't mesh with the skill at all, you don't want to be spamming it, as a large part of the skill is the buff it provides post use. so removing the gcd doesn't suddenly make it a high dps move.

 

I mean, combat is built around that beefy bladestorm right? well focus, I have -3s off cd, 30% crit damage, 7% crit chance, 3focus cost, 20% ar pen. I don't know about you, but im over 30% crit on my blade storms already. That extra 70-50% crit chance doesn't make up for the fact, the rest of my tree is vastly superior.

So where is the burst in combat?

focus, my zealous leap hits harder then your blade storm, my blade storm hits about the same. My force sweep hits harder then your blade storm, and is aoe. my slash is on par with your blade rush. My zen destroys your zen. I have beastly utility in transcendence and exhaustion, and way more mobility.

 

The tools are all there to make both the Sentinel specific trees work for what ever application you are doing. they also have raid utility unmatched by any other class in the form of the speed buff and damage buffs.

The damage buff is pathetic, due to the 5min cd compared to its 15s duration.

Def/speed I like. Oh look, watchman and focus again destroy combat in that regards.

+10 centering after transcendence. yes please. that is great. so focus, has more burst, more sustain, godlike transcendence, and godlike zen. what does combat have again?

Worst burst, worst sustain, worst-flat out un-useable zen, worst transcendence.

 

Combat is a good spec, its fast paced burst damage, watchmen is methodical and consistant. When the devs first talked about the class they said it was a pure DPS with multiple play styles. That is exactly what it is. The only caveat is that its not a class for everyone and if you think its so terrible and so broken and unplayable then don't play it, play something easier or more enjoyable to you, because you really seem to hate the class.

 

One more thing, if a watchmen sentinel ever out heals a heal speced healer then get a new healer.

yet it happens. passive aoe healing, that can't be interrupted. and occurs on the move. and scales with max HP innately. The percentages are clearly off. Edited December 20, 2011 by MBirkhofer

[Lils]

To be honest i have not had much trouble leveling as a sentianal in Live or Beta few boss got the drop on me but it forced me to look at the tactics and enviroment for that fight and try again

 

Much prefer a combat Sentinal over a button mashed

[DevouringPlague]

To be honest i have not had much trouble leveling as a sentianal in Live or Beta few boss got the drop on me but it forced me to look at the tactics and enviroment for that fight and try again

 

Much prefer a combat Sentinal over a button mashed

 

Because this is all about you and levelling without trying any other classes to compare.

 

 

<snip>

 

A brilliant post pointing out the sentinel's flaws. And the shame is that you're going to get a reply of, "**** UR A NOOB AND DONT NO HOW 2 PLAY"

Edited December 20, 2011 by DevouringPlague

[Coramac]

I am currently level 40. From the get-go' date=' I fell in love with the combat spec and I used that to level... and it was absolutely hell. I know, I know, some of you might be thinking that I am a n00b who doesn't know how to play his class. I tested this game from Alpha all the way to the end of Beta. I studied the class through and through, theorycrafted with the best players I know. Simply put, it should not be this hard to level. The downtime is absolutely ridiculous and those elite encounters? Forget about it. Be ready to blow a ton of potions/cool downs to fight anything higher then trash.[/color]

 

It took me like 5 seconds to find your problem. Be awesome, be Watchman.

[Sevitan]

Another huge blow in PvP, that isn't often mentioned, is the complete lack of ways to change the enemy location at all.

 

Every other class ( I think, not sure about smuggler/operative) gets some sort of pull or knock back that lets them abuse game hazards and general positioning. Some classes can get even more than one!

 

This is obviously huge in Huttball, and can be abused in Voidstar too, not to mention the tactical utility.

 

To make things worse, we get no hard CC what so ever, when ever other class in the game does get one. Doesn't seem to me like Sentinel's melee damage is so good it warrants for it to be the only class with no hard stuns, and being melee it's probably the class that needs it far more than the rest.

 

Even Guardian can spec in a 4 second stun (although they end up getting 3, with non-channel stasis and stun leap in addition to hilt strike) in defense and they also get push to abuse in huttball.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Sevitan

[MBirkhofer]

we do get stasis. And roots count as hard CC. So does Kick honestly.

And yes, I am aware of the limitations of each. but to say we get none is not accurate.

 

Stasis can be used to interrupt a heal, big nuke. or to lock someone on top of a fire pit in huttball. It can also hold someone allowing your team to beat them up. its not broken on damage. Even if it is effectively stunning you as well.

 

Roots can do the same thing. rooting someone allowing your team to focus them, root them over fire.

Edited December 20, 2011 by MBirkhofer

[Coramac]

Stuff

 

For the record, you are pretty much dead on, but you need to continue to elaborate about how terrible Combat is. Don't forget Watchman uses Juyo- 10% damage increase. Combat uses Ataru and I promise you the procs are not equivilient to a 10% damage increase. It has some awesome "perk" type abilities too. CDR on kick? Money. 100% damage reduction for 4 seconds? Awesome. On a 45 second CD... Do what now?!?

 

It's got great focus efficiency and FAR superior Center generation. For the later, the tank I group with has started asking in vent "where's my defense buff fool!" The only thing Combat really has is marginally better Focus generation... and I mean marginal. On average, it generates .6 more focus over a 12 second period.

[Sevitan]

we do get stasis. And roots count as hard CC. So does Kick honestly.

And yes, I am aware of the limitations of each. but to say we get none is not accurate.

 

Stasis can be used to interrupt a heal, big nuke. or to lock someone on top of a fire pit in huttball. It can also hold someone allowing your team to beat them up. its not broken on damage. Even if it is effectively stunning you as well.

 

Roots can do the same thing. rooting someone allowing your team to focus them, root them over fire.

 

That's all true, I meant no CC that completely stuns the enemy without side-effects to yourself. Stasis is fits this almost of course, but it roots you in place as well, and only makes up for the 4 second stun everyone else gets without accounting for the additional ways they get people into hazards.

 

We do get plenty of CC and ways to stick on target, which is nice, I just wish we had one of those CC's that lets you shutdown the enemy completely for a few seconds, while letting us utilize those few seconds in a way we best see fit, the one that everyone else has.