Lower the cost of War Hero and other Higher end gear.

[Polebreaker]

It would be nice if you and others actually address the argument rather than trying to make up that it is all about laziness or 'want it now'.

 

Address what argument? That some people feel it takes too long to grind out warhero gear? That's not an argument. It's an opinion, and its clearly not shared by most people here. The only argument I've seen in favour of reducing the cost was to protect the medical interests of children. Other than that it's just people saying they dont want to grind that long for their gear.

 

Yeah, no kidding people wouldnt last 5 minutes in EQ these days... not that it didnt have problems, but incessant whining for instant gratification wasnt one of them.

[PlagaNerezza]

Address what argument? That some people feel it takes too long to grind out warhero gear? That's not an argument. It's an opinion, and its clearly not shared by most people here. The only argument I've seen in favour of reducing the cost was to protect the medical interests of children. Other than that it's just people saying they dont want to grind that long for their gear.

 

Yeah, no kidding people wouldnt last 5 minutes in EQ these days... not that it didnt have problems, but incessant whining for instant gratification wasnt one of them.

 

You'll find my overall point centers around having a balanced approach to grinding. Legacy is suppose to make the grind better. I have found that the XP boost is not making any difference. You should look at posts seeking adjustments as attempts to make things more enjoyable. There is no "commendations" boost to make the pvp grind better.

 

If its suppose to take 3 months to complete its that design I want to understand and effect change on. Players who enjoy and engage in pvp don't need an incentive to really participate in that. What we have in SWTOR is a disencentive to PVP.

 

Having gear grinds in PVE is good. It works. You have scaled content. You work your way through and progress on mobs and bosses and gear up. You want a 1 year process to fully gear pve fine by me.

 

What gear grinds do is discourage PVP participation of gamers who look at a 3 month gear grind to be competitive and opt to not participate and/or not activate or renew a subscription.

 

Rightly or wrongly the mechanism gives players the impression that unless they pvp for 3 months straight when they log in they will get owned by other players in the warzones. The matching mechanism doesn't protect or slide the players into equal matches so you have fully modded WH against recruit geared players who might have a very low valor rank.

 

Its turning off subscribers from a very good pvp game. I know there is a sentiment of why bother pvping? I'll just get owned by pre-mades and WH players and farmed. I cannot win so why should I go pvp with you?

 

The mechanism is greatly improved since the days of RNG bag drops, but still has some issues that don't encourage participation.

 

My point on the time reduction by changing the conversion ratio is that it allows more people a sense they can complete the process and participate in the PVP endgame. That it is good for the PVP players because it reduces the time stress on us.

 

For the record I have an RNG geared BM Gunslinger rank 69 and RWZ WH geared Assassin rank 76. I speak from the prospective of already essentially completing the process and a guild leader who'd like to see more players engaged in the pvp end-game.

[Jadescythe]

You'll find my overall point centers around having a balanced approach to grinding. Legacy is suppose to make the grind better. I have found that the XP boost is not making any difference. You should look at posts seeking adjustments as attempts to make things more enjoyable. There is no "commendations" boost to make the pvp grind better.

 

If its suppose to take 3 months to complete its that design I want to understand and effect change on. Players who enjoy and engage in pvp don't need an incentive to really participate in that. What we have in SWTOR is a disencentive to PVP.

 

Having gear grinds in PVE is good. It works. You have scaled content. You work your way through and progress on mobs and bosses and gear up. You want a 1 year process to fully gear pve fine by me.

 

What gear grinds do is discourage PVP participation of gamers who look at a 3 month gear grind to be competitive and opt to not participate and/or not activate or renew a subscription.

 

Rightly or wrongly the mechanism gives players the impression that unless they pvp for 3 months straight when they log in they will get owned by other players in the warzones. The matching mechanism doesn't protect or slide the players into equal matches so you have fully modded WH against recruit geared players who might have a very low valor rank.

 

Its turning off subscribers from a very good pvp game. I know there is a sentiment of why bother pvping? I'll just get owned by pre-mades and WH players and farmed. I cannot win so why should I go pvp with you?

 

The mechanism is greatly improved since the days of RNG bag drops, but still has some issues that don't encourage participation.

 

My point on the time reduction by changing the conversion ratio is that it allows more people a sense they can complete the process and participate in the PVP endgame. That it is good for the PVP players because it reduces the time stress on us.

 

For the record I have an RNG geared BM Gunslinger rank 69 and RWZ WH geared Assassin rank 76. I speak from the prospective of already essentially completing the process and a guild leader who'd like to see more players engaged in the pvp end-game.

 

This is purely your opinion on how games should work and is extremely valid. Many people agree that gear grind should be left to PVE, others disagree. Either way, this particular game uses a gear grind system for PVP and has since launch. At this point, changing it would not only be unfair to those who have spent the time to get what they have, it would be an injustice that would cause most people in full war hero to quit the game. I am not a strong proponent for either system (I'll be in GW2 with no grind this weekend and still playing here as well), but I am strongly against changing the way things are setup this late in the game. If a new tier comes out that is easier obtain that is fine because everyone will be on equal ground when it hits, not spend 2 months getting something only to have everyone else given it in 1 month later on.

[islander]

People who would quit at war hero gear giveaways would be those who need the crutch to begin with. There's no real achievement in grinding out gear, imho.

 

So what if person X earned it the grind way? What does it really matter? It's imaginary items that affect a game. Moreover, at some point the gear will be antiquated anyway.

 

I'm 11/14 War Hero right now, and could honestly care less if everyone was given 14/14 tomorrow. Good PvPers will still be good PvPers, you'd just lose those who suck at a leveling playing field.

 

Of course, my view is in the minority though. I'm just one of those - give everyone access to everything and let's see how good you actually are - or aren't - people.

Edited August 22, 2012 by islander

[PlagaNerezza]

This is purely your opinion on how games should work and is extremely valid. Many people agree that gear grind should be left to PVE, others disagree. Either way, this particular game uses a gear grind system for PVP and has since launch. At this point, changing it would not only be unfair to those who have spent the time to get what they have, it would be an injustice that would cause most people in full war hero to quit the game. I am not a strong proponent for either system (I'll be in GW2 with no grind this weekend and still playing here as well), but I am strongly against changing the way things are setup this late in the game. If a new tier comes out that is easier obtain that is fine because everyone will be on equal ground when it hits, not spend 2 months getting something only to have everyone else given it in 1 month later on.

 

Fatman last night. There was 2 regular ranked teams and 1 team (I was in it) trying to que ranked for fun and commendations. We managed a whole 2 ranked matches in 2-3 hours time.

 

While I tend to agree with your point of changes have consquences, you need to really look at the health of the PVP population. I've got serious concerns that WH gear and the grind is to high and causing serious declines in the number of people queuing for it.

 

We cannot even have a ranked ladder system when their is 2 teams. Or pvp contests or any of the really cool things team based pvp offers when you cannot get teams pvping.

[Jadescythe]

People who would quit at war hero gear giveaways would be those who need the crutch to begin with. There's no real achievement in grinding out gear, imho.

 

So what if person X earned it the grind way? What does it really matter? It's imaginary items that affect a game. Moreover, at some point the gear will be antiquated anyway.

 

I'm 11/14 War Hero right now, and could honestly care less if everyone was given 14/14 tomorrow. Good PvPers will still be good PvPers, you'd just lose those who suck at a leveling playing field.

 

Of course, my view is in the minority though. I'm just one of those - give everyone access to everything and let's see how good you actually are - or aren't - people.

 

As I said, I'm not opposed to your view on skill vs. gear. Changing the gear grind now would simply make me feel like I wasted my time. I put a lot of time into this game and knowing that I could have spent that time on alts or crafting, or whatever rather than grinding comms for gear, I wouldn't be very happy. Ultimately, I know that this is the model BW wants, so at most they may reduce down the time to get gear (which ranked has already done to some extent anyway). We'll see, but either way, I'm excited to see if PVP without gear grind can work well this weekend.

[islander]

Fatman last night. There was 2 regular ranked teams and 1 team (I was in it) trying to que ranked for fun and commendations. We managed a whole 2 ranked matches in 2-3 hours time.

 

While I tend to agree with your point of changes have consquences, you need to really look at the health of the PVP population. I've got serious concerns that WH gear and the grind is to high and causing serious declines in the number of people queuing for it.

 

We cannot even have a ranked ladder system when their is 2 teams. Or pvp contests or any of the really cool things team based pvp offers when you cannot get teams pvping.

 

Yeah, I did some ranked early this week. One night was great, rattled off 4 in like 2 hours. Other night was slow, between waiting on people to be available and then the right combination of people to be available.

 

It's almost not worth the trouble. Normal q's are near instant, still around 5 minutes per wait.

[Jadescythe]

Fatman last night. There was 2 regular ranked teams and 1 team (I was in it) trying to que ranked for fun and commendations. We managed a whole 2 ranked matches in 2-3 hours time.

 

While I tend to agree with your point of changes have consquences, you need to really look at the health of the PVP population. I've got serious concerns that WH gear and the grind is to high and causing serious declines in the number of people queuing for it.

 

We cannot even have a ranked ladder system when their is 2 teams. Or pvp contests or any of the really cool things team based pvp offers when you cannot get teams pvping.

 

Most of the problem with ranked currently is the only option is a full team of 8 players. When BW gets solo queuing together (hopefully in a format that makes sense), I think that will change. Ultimately, this was never meant to be a PVP game, but the players ended up taking it in that direction. It would take a complete overhaul to get the types of things you are suggesting into place (ladders, contests, etc) because currently the gear and class imbalance is too large to function properly. While I think some more competition options would be fun, it is going to take a lot of resources to get us there (most of which are working on f2p right now). I think BW will have to change the entire gear design system for PVP in order to have any type of true competition and ranking system.

[islander]

As I said, I'm not opposed to your view on skill vs. gear. Changing the gear grind now would simply make me feel like I wasted my time. I put a lot of time into this game and knowing that I could have spent that time on alts or crafting, or whatever rather than grinding comms for gear, I wouldn't be very happy. Ultimately, I know that this is the model BW wants, so at most they may reduce down the time to get gear (which ranked has already done to some extent anyway). We'll see, but either way, I'm excited to see if PVP without gear grind can work well this weekend.

 

Roger that. I definitely understand your (and the majority's) perspective. I think it's just a mindset adjustment, that's all. I enjoy PvP (save for the rare occasion where I'm frustrated out of my skull) for just the sake of doing so. The competition where when you win you learn something, and typically when you lose, you learn more.

 

It's a never ending event, whether it's open world or 'in the box'. You can go 6 and 1 one night in warzones, then get lulz/undermanned groups the next night solo queueing and go 3 and 3.

Heck, last Friday night I rage logged after the third straight group that was never filled. Fought with anywhere from 4 to 6 other people through 3 straight warzones. Crazy stuff/bad luck.

[coerCez]

People who would quit at war hero gear giveaways would be those who need the crutch to begin with. There's no real achievement in grinding out gear, imho.

 

So what if person X earned it the grind way? What does it really matter? It's imaginary items that affect a game. Moreover, at some point the gear will be antiquated anyway.

 

I'm 11/14 War Hero right now, and could honestly care less if everyone was given 14/14 tomorrow. Good PvPers will still be good PvPers, you'd just lose those who suck at a leveling playing field.

 

Of course, my view is in the minority though. I'm just one of those - give everyone access to everything and let's see how good you actually are - or aren't - people.

 

The sole reason why people are against this is because for some psychopathic reason, people need to justify to themselves that they have been neglecting their work, their families, their loved ones, and their chores to get Full WH gear and it needs to feel like such a hard and valued accomplishment. Otherwise, they will realize that this is only a game and it doesn't matter what the person next to you have in terms of pixeled gear or how they acquired it.

 

Sad... really, really sad.

[TUXs]

The sole reason why people are against this is because for some psychopathic reason, people need to justify to themselves that they have been neglecting their work, their families, their loved ones, and their chores to get Full WH gear and it needs to feel like such a hard and valued accomplishment. Otherwise, they will realize that this is only a game and it doesn't matter what the person next to you have in terms of pixeled gear or how they acquired it.

 

Sad... really, really sad.

 

LOL! I love this reply I'm all for free WH gear for all players. I PvP for fun.

[DarthBloodloss]

The sole reason why people are against this is because for some psychopathic reason, people need to justify to themselves that they have been neglecting their work, their families, their loved ones, and their chores to get Full WH gear and it needs to feel like such a hard and valued accomplishment. Otherwise, they will realize that this is only a game and it doesn't matter what the person next to you have in terms of pixeled gear or how they acquired it.

 

Sad... really, really sad.

 

Someone sounds bitter at life lol

 

I'm sure you weren't serious, but that's not the reason people with WH gear dont want it to be free. The real reason is, most of those people are playing an MMO on purpose, and they want some sense of gear rarity. Its part of the genre. If this game had all gear for free and you didnt have to work for anything, it wouldnt be an MMO. If you dont like it, you may want to consider a game console such as the PS3. Those game have cheat codes to unlock everything for you so you dont have to do anything yourself.

[coerCez]

Someone sounds bitter at life lol

 

I'm sure you weren't serious, but that's not the reason people with WH gear dont want it to be free. The real reason is, most of those people are playing an MMO on purpose, and they want some sense of gear rarity. Its part of the genre. If this game had all gear for free and you didnt have to work for anything, it wouldnt be an MMO. If you dont like it, you may want to consider a game console such as the PS3. Those game have cheat codes to unlock everything for you so you dont have to do anything yourself.

 

Nah, I get it perfectly. I have been playing MMOs since UO and never before WoW was there a such thing as PvP gear. Actually Dark Age of Camelot was a prime example of how getting end game PvP gear was so easy and there were thousands of people still playing regardless of the lack of gear on a stick dangling in front of them.

 

I am all for gear progression for PvE, which if we are talking about the early days of MMO, all there ever was. It is logical, it is understandable. In order to beat a harder boss, you need better gear. Well guess what, players are not Bosses and there should never be a gear disparity in Player vs Player combat. It is simlpe as that...

[DarthBloodloss]

Nah, I get it perfectly. I have been playing MMOs since UO and never before WoW was there a such thing as PvP gear. Actually Dark Age of Camelot was a prime example of how getting end game PvP gear was so easy and there were thousands of people still playing regardless of the lack of gear on a stick dangling in front of them.

 

I am all for gear progression for PvE, which if we are talking about the early days of MMO, all there ever was. It is logical, it is understandable. In order to beat a harder boss, you need better gear. Well guess what, players are not Bosses and there should never be a gear disparity in Player vs Player combat. It is simlpe as that...

 

Yea that is definitely a valid point. I could see there being no gear progression, stat wise. But I just want something to mark my progress and gear is a nice way of doing that. If anything, it should at least allow for gear grinding to get cosmetic gear.

[coerCez]

Yea that is definitely a valid point. I could see there being no gear progression, stat wise. But I just want something to mark my progress and gear is a nice way of doing that. If anything, it should at least allow for gear grinding to get cosmetic gear.

 

I am all for that too. If you are willing to spend the time get gear that will only make you LOOK ****** but not MAKE you ******, that is perfectly fine.

[Slurmez]

war hero mod removal cost is almost as offensive as the hideous art bioware foisted on most of the WH sets

[Morrolan]

Address what argument? That some people feel it takes too long to grind out warhero gear? That's not an argument. It's an opinion,

Thats not the debate, its about vertical progression in PvP which is supposed to be player vs player. To quote someone from another thread "Any system that offers statistical advantages to players is no longer PvP, it is instead PvE with PvP elements included."

[Morrolan]

If you want to play ranked, get a group of 8 friends, guildies, whatever together and play ranked.

I played my first three ranked warzones in a mix of mostly recruit and BM and my team won 2 out of 3 and lost the last one (Novare Coast) 6% to 0

 

Been there done that, been uncompetitive and thrashed in every single game by fully aug WH teams which isn't fun or motivating.

[Thornsbane]

edit: wrong thread Edited August 23, 2012 by Thornsbane

[kweassa]

Thats not the debate, its about vertical progression in PvP which is supposed to be player vs player. To quote someone from another thread "Any system that offers statistical advantages to players is no longer PvP, it is instead PvE with PvP elements included."

 

That statement is inherently flawed in that people are innately statistically different in terms of skill alone. Some people have faster reflex times while others are like snails. Some show uncanny judgement while others are dunces. Some have a tendency to support better than others.

 

If we partake in this foolish notion of absolute equality in every condition, then we must first abolish all classes and make them into one single class, exact same capabilities. Then, we somehow neuter physical and mental capacities of individual players and only that way is this stupid notion achieved.

 

In reality, innate differences in personal performance can be developed through training so each and everyone has at least a reasonable chance of matching the other in physical/mental skill (unless serious disabilities). Hence, people take for granted that such differences are to be rectified through personal effort -- it is what makes people set goals and work for it.

 

Same with gear. Gear is not a set class segragation. Ultimately everyone arrives there, provided they invest in more or less similar time. It's not as if only the top 100 people have access to it, unlike in society where it is systematically impossible for everyone to become millionaires. EVERYONE has access to it at an EXACT equal price set.

 

All you need is the patience and effort to get there. The motivation to get stronger, more powerful than the other, to prove oneself the winner in the contest.

 

There is no rewarding people who have not earned it, and that's PvP.

[Ssfbistimg]

I did the math for how many warzone comms it would take to buy the full set of warhero gear. It totaled around 75k. Divide that by 140 comms per win ( my average ) and it totals to 500 games. A bit rediculous. Now, we're not counting the times that a player would not do so well or it is just a plain loss with 8 medal requirement earned. I would imagine it would be somewhere from 700-800 warzones if it was straight losses. On average a player can do four warzones (assuming that each Warzone lasts the average 15 minutes). If a player grinds warzones for eight hours (the hardcore gamer with no life), that will be 32 warzones in one day - on average. Which in effect will take him seventeen weeks to complete the required amount of commendations to have his gear. 17 weeks is four months and one week. There are dailies and weeklies to assist in shortening the time. But... These numbers alone.. really?

 

Haters gonna hate and probably say I am whining. These folks prolly already have their War Hero gear. But think of it this way... Do you wanna do this entire grind over again once there is a new season - each season? Or each level cap that is raised? Gonna compare to WoW here - it didnt take me nearly as long to get my arena gear...

 

I had to buy a full set, then buy 7 Extra Hats and & 7 extra Boots to have the Mods and Enhancements I wanted. So enjoy the grind mate. It wouldnt be so bad if i didnt have to keep wasting comms on BM gear to get the extra sets of Boots & Hats

Edited August 23, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[Polebreaker]

That statement is inherently flawed in that people are innately statistically different in terms of skill alone. Some people have faster reflex times while others are like snails. Some show uncanny judgement while others are dunces. Some have a tendency to support better than others.

 

If we partake in this foolish notion of absolute equality in every condition, then we must first abolish all classes and make them into one single class, exact same capabilities. Then, we somehow neuter physical and mental capacities of individual players and only that way is this stupid notion achieved.

 

In reality, innate differences in personal performance can be developed through training so each and everyone has at least a reasonable chance of matching the other in physical/mental skill (unless serious disabilities). Hence, people take for granted that such differences are to be rectified through personal effort -- it is what makes people set goals and work for it.

 

Same with gear. Gear is not a set class segragation. Ultimately everyone arrives there, provided they invest in more or less similar time. It's not as if only the top 100 people have access to it, unlike in society where it is systematically impossible for everyone to become millionaires. EVERYONE has access to it at an EXACT equal price set.

 

All you need is the patience and effort to get there. The motivation to get stronger, more powerful than the other, to prove oneself the winner in the contest.

 

There is no rewarding people who have not earned it, and that's PvP.

 

Well put. Someone's putting their liberal arts degree to good use!

[Nightthunder]

That statement is inherently flawed in that people are innately statistically different in terms of skill alone. Some people have faster reflex times while others are like snails. Some show uncanny judgement while others are dunces. Some have a tendency to support better than others.

 

If we partake in this foolish notion of absolute equality in every condition, then we must first abolish all classes and make them into one single class, exact same capabilities. Then, we somehow neuter physical and mental capacities of individual players and only that way is this stupid notion achieved.

 

In reality, innate differences in personal performance can be developed through training so each and everyone has at least a reasonable chance of matching the other in physical/mental skill (unless serious disabilities). Hence, people take for granted that such differences are to be rectified through personal effort -- it is what makes people set goals and work for it.

 

Same with gear. Gear is not a set class segragation. Ultimately everyone arrives there, provided they invest in more or less similar time. It's not as if only the top 100 people have access to it, unlike in society where it is systematically impossible for everyone to become millionaires. EVERYONE has access to it at an EXACT equal price set.

 

All you need is the patience and effort to get there. The motivation to get stronger, more powerful than the other, to prove oneself the winner in the contest.

 

There is no rewarding people who have not earned it, and that's PvP.

 

I WANT this guy to be president! Everything that he said is true.

If you are persistent and motivated, then you should be rewarded with items and better knowledge of gameplay.

IF you take away the gearing system (for instance in GW2 everyone is equal in both lvl and skill points/gear) what would people play for? Just winning a game based on skill is fun, dont get me wrong, but after 2 days of playing i would set up new goals, because not getting new items for pvp, new gadgets and so on would ruin the rewarding system which many ppl play because of that and their effort put into place, if i play and commit some time to practice and enjoy the game, then yes, i want some rewards for it.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Nightthunder

[Knockerz]

It's fine, but they should reduce the cost of removing mods and augments. Pvping only isn't going to net you enough credits to add augment slots to gear, buy augments, and remove mods. It's really expensive. It comes out to like 300k-400k. Although you can do dailies that's more like pve. Edited August 23, 2012 by Knockerz

[eclipce]

That statement is inherently flawed in that people are innately statistically different in terms of skill alone. Some people have faster reflex times while others are like snails. Some show uncanny judgement while others are dunces. Some have a tendency to support better than others.

 

If we partake in this foolish notion of absolute equality in every condition, then we must first abolish all classes and make them into one single class, exact same capabilities. Then, we somehow neuter physical and mental capacities of individual players and only that way is this stupid notion achieved.

 

In reality, innate differences in personal performance can be developed through training so each and everyone has at least a reasonable chance of matching the other in physical/mental skill (unless serious disabilities). Hence, people take for granted that such differences are to be rectified through personal effort -- it is what makes people set goals and work for it.

 

Same with gear. Gear is not a set class segragation. Ultimately everyone arrives there, provided they invest in more or less similar time. It's not as if only the top 100 people have access to it, unlike in society where it is systematically impossible for everyone to become millionaires. EVERYONE has access to it at an EXACT equal price set.

 

All you need is the patience and effort to get there. The motivation to get stronger, more powerful than the other, to prove oneself the winner in the contest.

 

There is no rewarding people who have not earned it, and that's PvP.

 

oh, but you forget something.. having fun, playing a game you know.. why all the grinding for everything that has to do with stats.. your toughts can be applied to you are player skills, adapt.. communicate, learn rotation, learn map tactics, learn classes, pros and cons.. there is NO need to grind for stat - do you think the FPS industry would have as much success if there was a long and tedious gear grind above reaching x levels to unlock x feats like CoD.

 

and dont bring in WoW, that is a freak of nature in the mmorpg industry-