They are already discussing milking the subscribers

[Surakis]

I'm only narked because you called me obtuce for not accepting your opinion. I like the game, enjoy playing it, and will continue to do so. All I'm saying is I won't pay for an expansion that doesn't expand the class story, i.e. giving my opinion whilst all you seem to want to do is disrespect my opinion.

 

I said those who deny a 5 level cap raise, and content to get the 5 levels, is an expansion. If that's you, then the shoe fits.

 

Changing the definition because you do look obtuse is something else...

 

PS: Everyone is entitled to an opinion but not every opinion is equal.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Surakis

[leathfuil]

Whether they charge subscribers or not, a 5 level increase and content to go with it would be an expansion in almost any game. Acting like it wouldn't be in SWTOR is obtuse.

 

No, it wouldn't and no, it isn't. Five levels does not bring anything new to the table. It's just five more levels of the same thing.

 

By contrast, all of WoW's expansions have introduced new game systems, and sometimes completely overhauled old ones. When somebody buys a WoW expansion, they're getting practically a whole new game. City of Heroes created whole new factions in City of Villains and Going Rogue. Even LotRO introduces new concepts with its expansions, such as legendary weapons, skirmishes and mounted combat.

 

Five levels is just a change in the game's mathematics.

[Surakis]

No, it wouldn't and no, it isn't. Five levels does not bring anything new to the table. It's just five more levels of the same thing.

 

By contrast, all of WoW's expansions have introduced new game systems, and sometimes completely overhauled old ones. When somebody buys a WoW expansion, they're getting practically a whole new game. City of Heroes created whole new factions in City of Villains and Going Rogue. Even LotRO introduces new concepts with its expansions, such as legendary weapons, skirmishes and mounted combat.

 

Five levels is just a change in the game's mathematics.

 

If it wasn't for the levels and content to level in, they wouldn't sell...

 

PS: For the price of a brand new game (39.99) they better have a lot of content in addition to the levels and leveling content.

[Soluss]

39.99 price tag... 39.99 price tag... 39.99 price tag.

 

Context. It means everything.

 

As if you know what EA will charge. I paid almost 200 for the game box. First time in history.

[kidatwood]

No, it wouldn't and no, it isn't. Five levels does not bring anything new to the table. It's just five more levels of the same thing.

 

By contrast, all of WoW's expansions have introduced new game systems, and sometimes completely overhauled old ones. When somebody buys a WoW expansion, they're getting practically a whole new game. City of Heroes created whole new factions in City of Villains and Going Rogue. Even LotRO introduces new concepts with its expansions, such as legendary weapons, skirmishes and mounted combat.

 

Five levels is just a change in the game's mathematics.

 

I think you forgot one thing in your opinion of an expansion and that is nobody knows as of yet what the size of the content is going to be. I think it is best to wait to see what the planet is released with. then rage. as it is right now we have no clue!

[Surakis]

As if you know what EA will charge. I paid almost 200 for the game box. First time in history.

 

As if you know if they will even charge. If you bought the CE, you bought it for the goodies in the CE not for content ad infinitum.

[Soluss]

As if you know if they will even charge. If you bought the CE, you bought it for the goodies in the CE not for content ad infinitum.

 

I know they are discussing it which is bad enough for me. Im not dissapointed with my CE purchased. Im just saying that for the first time in history... I spend almost 200 on a box. So you have no idea what they will try to charge, if they decide to do so. Id rather speak now and show them I am unhappy then to have them just slam it on us. Look at Champions Online to see the fiasco that happend there. It was the exact same thing.

 

As for content ad infinitum... thats what my sub pays for. Content updates. I expect expansion purchases but I expect them to be large. I also expect a good amount of free content between expansions. Something this game has not done. If you dont believe we should get free content then see my sig. The second that the developers made that claim, that is in my sig, is the second that I became entitled to it. If not, its false advertising and misrepresentation.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Soluss

[Skoobie]

I said those who deny a 5 level cap raise, and content to get the 5 levels, is an expansion. If that's you, then the shoe fits.

 

Changing the definition because you do look obtuse is something else...

 

PS: Everyone is entitled to an opinion but not every opinion is equal.

 

What are these 5 levels in which you speak?

 

According to Hickman's interview, "We are not ready to discuss that yet".

 

It was another thing they backed off of in the interview. So at this point, we don't even know if there will be a level increase or not.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Skoobie

[Surakis]

What are these 5 levels in which you speak?

 

According to Hickman's interview, "We are not ready to discuss that yet".

 

It was another thing they backed off of in the interview. So at this point, we don't even know if there will be a level increase or not.

 

Why is it when it's bashing the game no one needs a source, but if it is in anyway pro-SWTOR it needs 12 different independent sources?

[Skoobie]

Why is it when it's bashing the game no one needs a source, but if it is in anyway pro-SWTOR it needs 12 different independent sources?

 

Because thru the history of the game, the pro people have been generally wrong.

 

When people complained that the game was losing subs, the pro side took up their stance...and were wrong. (And I was one of those pro people at the time).

 

When people said the game was going to go F2P, the pro-swtor folks took their stance. They were wrong. (And I was still one of those pro folks at this point).

 

When people said that there would be amour with stats in the cash shop, the pro-swtor took their stance...and were wrong.

 

When people said that subscribers may end up paying for additional content, a segment (won't say all there) took up the stance "Subscribers won't have to pay for anything!", and it looks like they may be wrong once again.

 

That would be my guess.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Skoobie

[Surakis]

Because thru the history of the game, the pro people have been generally wrong.

 

When people complained that the game was losing subs, the pro side took up their stance...and were wrong. (And I was one of those pro people at the time).

 

When people said the game was going to go F2P, the pro-swtor folks took their stance. They were wrong. (And I was still one of those pro folks at this point).

 

When people said that there would be amour with stats in the cash shop, the pro-swtor took their stance...and were wrong.

 

When people said that subscribers may end up paying for additional content, a segment (won't say all there) took up the stance "Subscribers won't have to pay for anything!", and it looks like they may be wrong once again.

 

That would be my guess.

 

Even a broken clock is right twice a day... I suppose if one makes enough predictions... some might come to pass. Then you ignore the ones that missed and harp on the ones that hit.

[Andryah]

What are these 5 levels in which you speak?

 

According to Hickman's interview, "We are not ready to discuss that yet".

 

It was another thing they backed off of in the interview. So at this point, we don't even know if there will be a level increase or not.

 

There's Skoobie!

 

Where you been? Been saving you a seat all day.

 

I don't know.... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5058704#edit5058704 Allison makes it pretty clear (today) . it's just a question of when and how many levels.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Andryah

[Skoobie]

There's Skoobie!

 

Where you been? Been saving you a seat all day.

 

I don't know.... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5058704#edit5058704 Allison makes it pretty clear (today) . it's just a question of when and how many levels.

 

Working, working, working!

 

Thanks for that link, I had not seen it.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Skoobie

[Soluss]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day... I suppose if one makes enough predictions... some might come to pass. Then you ignore the ones that missed and harp on the ones that hit.

 

In this case, the broken clock would be the fans and the ones that have been right are the critics. Been that way since beta.

[Gomla]

I don't even buy cheap DLC for games so the chances of me paying for a single planet is somewhere between slim and none.

 

To be fair there isn't even a slim chance.

 

I pay my sub and that's all they are getting out of me.

[AshlaBoga]

The new planet would have to be twice the size of Balmora and Belsavis put together + a higher level cap.

 

Also, Cathar? Seriously? That's one my least favourite races - I hate cats:mad:

[Voidence]

39.99 price tag... 39.99 price tag... 39.99 price tag.

 

Context. It means everything.

 

This guy is one of the suckers they are hoping to get.

[discosoc]

Except that the excuse for having us pay a subscription model is updates and new content. I haven't seen $135 worth of updates and new content.

 

The excuse for having to pay a subscription was rooted in simply being able to access the game at all. it dates back to when dialup charged by the hour, and gaming servers also charged by the hour. To simplify things, games started offering flat rate subscriptions so people weren't having to count hours. The sub itself gave you access to the server and your character. New content was reserved for expansion packs, which were purchased. Game patches were rare, and usually revolved around memory leaks or game-breaking bugs, rather than anything like class balance or new features.

 

Over time, some MMO's like WoW came out with the selling point that if you subscribed, there would be some new content patches in between full expansions. Part of the reason they did this was because they decided to charge 14.99 instead of the standard 9.99 each month.

 

Like it or not, monthly fees are not there to fund new content. Devs like Trion (who does Rift) are very rare exceptions, and can only get away with frequent content updates on such a small playerbase due to a relatively low cost of doing business. They have no expensive IP license, and network infrastructure is fairly cheap these days.

 

For what it's worth, I think sub fees are outdated and companies are starting to realize it. People aren't as interested in paying 15 a month for a game anymore. TOR was just unfortunately developed before the industry began to change from it.

[Wayshuba]

The excuse for having to pay a subscription was rooted in simply being able to access the game at all. it dates back to when dialup charged by the hour, and gaming servers also charged by the hour. To simplify things, games started offering flat rate subscriptions so people weren't having to count hours. The sub itself gave you access to the server and your character. New content was reserved for expansion packs, which were purchased. Game patches were rare, and usually revolved around memory leaks or game-breaking bugs, rather than anything like class balance or new features.

 

Over time, some MMO's like WoW came out with the selling point that if you subscribed, there would be some new content patches in between full expansions. Part of the reason they did this was because they decided to charge 14.99 instead of the standard 9.99 each month.

 

Like it or not, monthly fees are not there to fund new content. Devs like Trion (who does Rift) are very rare exceptions, and can only get away with frequent content updates on such a small playerbase due to a relatively low cost of doing business. They have no expensive IP license, and network infrastructure is fairly cheap these days.

 

For what it's worth, I think sub fees are outdated and companies are starting to realize it. People aren't as interested in paying 15 a month for a game anymore. TOR was just unfortunately developed before the industry began to change from it.

 

See my post above. Like it or not, it is no longer the dial-up years and broadband connections are required now. Like it or not, it only cost $3.00 per user per YEAR to support them on servers. Like it or not, in 2012 sub fees are for generation of content - as per the ToS and their own marketing jargon.

[Andryah]

Yes, it does.

 

Per EA's ToS:

 

3. Entitlements

 

"Entitlements" are licensed rights granted, awarded, provided and/or purchased by you to access and/or use online or off-line elements or features of EA Services and/or products. Entitlements include but are not limited to paid and free downloadable content, unlockable content, digital and/or virtual assets, rights of use tied to unlock keys or codes, serial codes and/or online authentication of any kind, in-game achievements and virtual or fictional currency not otherwise governed by a Digital Services Agreement.

 

Content....

 

Content, and Entltlements are different. That is why they are covered under separate clauses in the ToS.

 

per the EA ToS

 

2. Content

 

"Content" on EA Services includes software, technology, text, forum posts, chat posts, profiles, widgets, messages, links, emails, music, sound, graphics, pictures, video, code, and all audio visual or other material appearing on or emanating to and/or from EA Services, as well as the design and appearance of our websites. All Content--with the exception of third party content discussed below in Section 6--is owned by EA or its affiliates, subsidiaries, licensors or suppliers. Content includes user-generated Content ("UGC"). UGC includes but is not limited to Account personas, forum posts, chat posts, profile content and any other Content contributed by users to EA Services. EA Content and UGC collectively shall be referred to as "Content." EA does not pre-screen all UGC and does not endorse, approve, or prescreen any UGC that you and other users may contribute to EA Services. You bear the entire risk of the completeness, accuracy or usefulness of Content found on EA Services.

 

EA reserves the right (but has no obligation except as required by law) to remove, block, edit, move or disable UGC for any reason, including when EA determines that UGC violates these terms. The decision to remove UGC or other Content at any time is in EA's sole and final discretion. To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, EA does not assume any responsibility or liability for UGC or for removal of, UGC or any failure to or delay in removing, UGC or other Content.

 

You are solely responsible for your UGC and may be held liable for UGC that you post.

 

3. Entitlements

 

"Entitlements" are licensed rights granted, awarded, provided and/or purchased by you to access and/or use online or off-line elements or features of EA Services and/or products. Entitlements include but are not limited to paid and free downloadable content, unlockable content, digital and/or virtual assets, rights of use tied to unlock keys or codes, serial codes and/or online authentication of any kind, in-game achievements and virtual or fictional currency not otherwise governed by a Digital Services Agreement.

 

Entitlements are simply license rights to whatever content you are entitled to access (which is determined by what EA says you have access to), based on your purchase and/or recurring subscrption, OR content granted under free license (like the upcoming free parts of the Freemium model).

 

Check with your attorney if you have doubts.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Andryah

[discosoc]

See my post above. Like it or not, it is no longer the dial-up years and broadband connections are required now. Like it or not, it only cost $3.00 per user per YEAR to support them on servers. Like it or not, in 2012 sub fees are for generation of content - as per the ToS and their own marketing jargon.

 

I'm not arguing that's it's an outdated deal. I mentioned as much, in fact.

 

All I'm saying is that people who sign up for these MMO's subscriptions have somehow convinced themselves that their sub fee is contractually going towards new content, which is not the case. I know a lot of these players are new to the genre, and the idea makes more sense that way, but they are simply misinformed.

 

So yeah, sub fees *should* fund new content, but until a company comes out and claims it to be the case (and follows through), I'm not going to hope and wish it into reality, then kick and scream when that doesn't work.

Edited August 21, 2012 by discosoc

[Soluss]

The excuse for having to pay a subscription was rooted in simply being able to access the game at all. it dates back to when dialup charged by the hour, and gaming servers also charged by the hour. To simplify things, games started offering flat rate subscriptions so people weren't having to count hours. The sub itself gave you access to the server and your character. New content was reserved for expansion packs, which were purchased. Game patches were rare, and usually revolved around memory leaks or game-breaking bugs, rather than anything like class balance or new features.

 

Over time, some MMO's like WoW came out with the selling point that if you subscribed, there would be some new content patches in between full expansions. Part of the reason they did this was because they decided to charge 14.99 instead of the standard 9.99 each month.

 

Like it or not, monthly fees are not there to fund new content. Devs like Trion (who does Rift) are very rare exceptions, and can only get away with frequent content updates on such a small playerbase due to a relatively low cost of doing business. They have no expensive IP license, and network infrastructure is fairly cheap these days.

 

For what it's worth, I think sub fees are outdated and companies are starting to realize it. People aren't as interested in paying 15 a month for a game anymore. TOR was just unfortunately developed before the industry began to change from it.

 

Everquest even patched in content. WoW was not the first to do so.

 

I point to these 2 items :

James Ohlen: " For 2012 we really want players to feel like they're getting their money's worth. You're going to see so many changes and additions to the Star Wars Universe. It's going to be impressive. We have our Update 1.2 coming in the next week and then after that it's going to continue to roll out month after month. It's exciting."

 

Entitlements include but are not limited to paid and free downloadable content, unlockable content, digital and/or virtual assets, rights of use tied to unlock keys or codes, serial codes and/or online authentication of any kind, in-game achievements and virtual or fictional currency not otherwise governed by a Digital Services Agreement.

 

I point to just about every MMO made since EQ to show that sub money does indeed include free content updating. To say that RIFT is a rare exception is false. Show me 1 MMO, that is hasnt shut down, that has not had free content updates since EQ.

 

For your last statement. I agree with you and disagree with you. I think that buying a game and paying access for a game is silly. With content updates being free, its not so bad. Its like prepaying for content. Thats the whole reason I had been willing to do so all these years. Some games did pretty good updates and I felt I got my money's worth. EQ 2, Lotro, Rift.... to name a few. Others, not so much....This one in particular.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Soluss

[Soluss]

Content, and Entltlements are different. That is why they are covered under separate clauses in the ToS.

 

per the EA ToS

 

 

 

Entitlements are simply license rights to whatever content you are entitled to access (which is determined by what EA says you have access to), based on your purchase and/or recurring subscrption, OR content granted under free license (like the upcoming free parts of the Freemium model).

 

Check with your attorney if you have doubts.

 

Entitlements include but are not limited to paid and free downloadable content

 

James Ohlen: " For 2012 we really want players to feel like they're getting their money's worth. You're going to see so many changes and additions to the Star Wars Universe. It's going to be impressive. We have our Update 1.2 coming in the next week and then after that it's going to continue to roll out month after month. It's exciting

 

Statements like these would leave one to believe that part of the service, we are paying for, is free content updates. They lead one to believe that ..... because thats what they mean.

[Soluss]

I'm not arguing that's it's an outdated deal. I mentioned as much, in fact.

 

All I'm saying is that people who sign up for these MMO's subscriptions have somehow convinced themselves that their sub fee is contractually going towards new content, which is not the case. I know a lot of these players are new to the genre, and the idea makes more sense that way, but they are simply misinformed.

 

So yeah, sub fees *should* fund new content, but until a company comes out and claims it to be the case (and follows through), I'm not going to hope and wish it into reality, then kick and scream when that doesn't work.

 

We convinced ourselves because that is the industry standard. It doesnt cost anything to run a game server. Well not anything but its peanuts. It sure doesnt cost 15 bucks a month per player. Show me another online genre, that you pay for a full price game but cant play it unless you also pay 15 bucks a month. There are none. The only way they can justify you continually paying for something... above and beyond the cost of a regular game... is to add in content updates. Thats the industry standard. MMO is based on a persistant, ever changing world. That is the draw of them. The willingness to pay is because you know its going to grow. I dont think anyone, in their right mind, would sit there and pay for something, after they bought it, if they didnt feel they were going to get more.

 

You buy the box, you already paid for the game. Which, btw, is why I think the sub model is outdated. Its rediculous to pay 60 bucks for something that could shut down tommorow and you never have access to it ever again. Its like flushing money down the toilet.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Soluss

[Wayshuba]

I'm not arguing that's it's an outdated deal. I mentioned as much, in fact.

 

All I'm saying is that people who sign up for these MMO's subscriptions have somehow convinced themselves that their sub fee is contractually going towards new content, which is not the case. I know a lot of these players are new to the genre, and the idea makes more sense that way, but they are simply misinformed.

 

So yeah, sub fees *should* fund new content, but until a company comes out and claims it to be the case (and follows through), I'm not going to hope and wish it into reality, then kick and scream when that doesn't work.

 

Sorry, but I disagree they were misinformed. How should a customer, paying a sub fee, take this:

 

James Ohlen: " For 2012 we really want players to feel like they're getting their money's worth. You're going to see so many changes and additions to the Star Wars Universe. It's going to be impressive. We have our Update 1.2 coming in the next week and then after that it's going to continue to roll out month after month. It's exciting."

 

I think you're trying to rationalize that customers don't have a right to expect content when comments like these were made in various forms quite often (starting in 2008 when they announced why they were going with the sub model), and EA/BioWare built expectations that this is what could be expected for the sub fee, then they failed to deliver on it in a very big way.

 

I personally am also peeved that we are paying a sub fee for this content and now they are holding the previous 1.4 content waiting for the release of F2P. So we are basically getting shafted in what our sub fee was for.

 

Over and out from SWTOR permanently come August 25th.............. Over and out from anything by EA permanently for life.................

Edited August 21, 2012 by Wayshuba