Crafting Material (the Harbinger server)

[Thylbanus]

I've noticed that for some reason the common lvl 1 scavanging materials are so common that they move for around 20-30 cr/unit. Now all the other common lvl 1 materials seem to be around 200 cr/unit. Is there some sort of imbalance here? I know that Strong and Elite Droid bodies yield material, but so do beasts for bioanalysis. Are there just a ton of Artificers, Biochemists, Cybertechs, and Synthweavers driving the prices up? Really? No one is doing arms and armor? I don't know how the mechanics of drops work, but perhaps someone should take a look at what is happening.

 

I've had theories ranging from simple to rediculous. I hope it is just a simple mistake or oversight that can be easily remedied by increasing drop rates for all materials. I did a completely unscientific test and made a Republic character with Archeology, Bioanalysis, and Scavenging and I've leveled to 17 so far and I have 2 99s and half way through a third 99 stack of Desh, a 99 stack of silica with another at 88, a stack of 99 rubat with a handful in another stack, a 99 stack of dielectric cell fiber, one and a half 99 stacks of green goo, 66 bacterial strain, 23 lost artifact fragments, 20-30 various color crystals, and a hand full of aluminium and laminoids. Note: no skill missions were run with this character. This is all in environment resource gathering. So it does seem that they are indeed more common. Then again, if this were scientific, I would have to reproduce this MANY more times to get a true study. So if some Dev looks at this please get someone to analyze consumption vs availibility and balance it for everyone, it would be most appreciated.

 

Also, if you could add in a third click for the price column on the GTN for price per item, as well as a quantity sorter. Sometimes I would just like to buy full stacks.

 

(Before you ask, No. I will not give you those materials.)

[asbalana]

My unscientific experience has been that the most common nodes (including silver and above droids and creatures) are Scavaging, then comes Bioanalysis, and then Archeology. The Scav and Bio nodes seem to come a tad earlier in the game. The patterns also seems to continue to level 50.

 

I never looked at the relative utilization, but am now leveling a Trooper and my wife a Gunslinger and I am using a ton of Scavaging mats compared to the others (mostly for mods, armoring, armor pieces and blasters with Aim and Cunning stats and I believe ears). The implants take Bio mats which can be very expensive at all levels. I think that the enhancements take Arch mats. Perhaps someone else can comment on this and it has been a while for me, but I think that when were were leveling characters that needed Synth gear and used strength and willpower, I went through a lot of Arch mats and little metals.

 

As far as the pricing of mats is concerned, that is mostly a question of supply and demand. It is an overall population measure of where people are level wise and how quickly they are leveling. For example, about three months ago the prices of Scavaged low level mats was actually pretty high on Harbinger. Not so much any more. The mix of people leveling, the crew skills that they picked, and mats that they may have in the cargo hold from other characters may be pushing prices down on certain mats. There may be less crafting going on as well as the population matures. I can keep a willpower light armored character in purples from just about 1 - 50 without having to RE one schematic. Been there and done that and so use very little mats since the biggest drain is the RE process. The amount of money people have plays a role. REing items can take a ton of mats, especially considering the long fail streaks which suck mats galore and that can drive prices up. There are some items, now that I have the money, that I look at and just buy on the GTN rather than going though the process of building a purple schematic. An example is color crystals. I can bring any that I want to purple, but only use one per character and it is just not worth the effort to go through the RE process, so I buy a new one every few levels.

[Thylbanus]

I understand supply and demand. That is my point. The supply of each is not perportionate to consumption. There is some fundamental game mechanic that is flawed. There should be some sort of equilibrium between basic materials. This isn't some sort of business sim like EVE Online. Drop rates should be mirrored by consumption. There are many factors that play into consumption, but in the end there should not be a disparity of 1000%! I can take that the ebb and flow of gaming so that one sort of material is in demand at certain times, but that is too much. I've looked at the GTNs on other servers and the same goes on there as well. Desh and Silica run for 10-20 cr/unit and all others run around 200 cr/unit. This is rediculous. There is some flaw in the system that has caused this. I'm not suggesting an overhaul of the whole system, but suggesting a monitoring of these materials. A simple program that would in effect cause drops to increase as consumption increases would solve this inequity.

[Raora]

Let me get this straight and tell me if I'm wrong. You are complaining that level 1 materials sell for 20 or so cr per unit and jumps up too 200 cr per unit for level 2 materials?

 

Why? 200cr per unit is nothing. Laminoid, a level 1 material, on my server routinely sells for 800-1200 cr per unit. But 200? That is nothing.

[Thylbanus]

Yes, you missed my point. I don't care if it is 20 cr/unit or 2,000,000 cr/ unit, I just want it to be uniform. If something is so common that people just want to get rid of it for 10-20 cr/unit when all other materials of the same class cost 200-300 cr/unit there is a problem with drops or crafting. I don't want to have a complete overhaul of the crafting system, so just adjust the drop rate to be more consistent with consumption. Desh and Silica are Class 1 common materials, Laminoid is a Class 1 uncommon material. It's apples and oranges. Similar materials to Desh and Silica would be Dielectric Cell Fiber or Rubat Crystals. I'm testing my theory on another server and Dielctric Cell Fiber is going for 400 cr/unit and Rubat Crystals for 500 cr/unit. Desh and Silica are still 10-20 cr/unit. That means something is off about the system. I don't want to sit down and graph this out, but with the F2P around the bend, problems need to be solved before launch or it will become a larger issue. Crafting is a cornerstone of MMOs for some people. If you played SWG, there were people who NEVER fired a blaster after they left the starter area. For some reason, I love this game and I want it to continue for a while. As they stay, you can't fix it if you don't know it's broken.

[asbalana]

Just a final thought because I think that you have it backwards.

 

By design each level of and each class of mats will have one actual item of value and the rest are just throw aways, fillers, junk. This is much like the fact that 99.99% of the drops you get are useless items. The consumption of mats is not dictated only by demand but supply as well and the supply of certain key mats is limited to keep consumption (the number of finished end products of quality) low. So it is a rigged supply and demand equation with the supply of certain mats purposely kept low and that pushes up their relative prices.

 

Junk mats like desh are plentiful and in excess of the amount desired and so are cheap (by design). Other mats are purposely kept in low supply (via low drop rates) and are expensive. There is no reason why there should be a relationship between the costs of different mats. On the other hand there is reason to keep the supply of designated key mats low and as BW does, require the same mat for a number of different items.. It serves to lmit the number of high quality finished products low. If there was not this relationship, everyone would be fullly decked out in purples at all levels for small cost and crafted gear of moderate quality would be priced similarly to high quality gear.

Edited August 14, 2012 by asbalana

[Thylbanus]

Yes, I do have it backwards. The problem is the crafting system, but in the mean time, my suggestion is to modify the drops. Like I said before in my previous posts, I don't want to call for a complete overhaul of the current crafting system, just a simple quick fix. All crafting materials should be of use. There should be no "filler" or "junk" materials. If you are running a business sim, this would be fine, but since this is not, an adjustment must be made. One would think that with 3 crafting skills (Armstech, Armormech, and Cybertech) using Scavanged materials there would be more comsumption, but their prices on the GTN do not reflect this. Therefore there is an imbalance. Imbalance leads to dissatisfaction and dissatisfaction leads to dropped subs.

 

In reality, a full review of the cost of materials in each should be done. Desh and Silica are only of use for a brief time compared to other crafting materials, yet they are the most abundant drops. Even EVE Online, which is a business sim, solved this by making it's most common material (Tritanium) a part of almost every schematic from beginning to end. Keeping Tritanium from being a "junk" material.

 

The drop system is flawed in that each one has a predetermined location. If you find a Rubat Crystal in one area, once gathered, the replacement will only be another Rubat Crystal, Color Crystal, or Lost Artifact Fragment. This is just silly. While certain areas would make more sence than others (Archeology mats in caves and ancient ruins and Scavanging mats in junk piles and starship wrecks), they should still be set by the consumption of materials. Having a predetermined location for materials also is a factor in over-saturation of the market.

 

Personally I've always said that if a player takes the time to craft, those items should be the best availible. My rule of thumb is, creature drops yield decent items with a rare good one. Storyline items should yield good items, with a great item at the completion of a story arc. Finally player crafted items should yield the best for a PvE environment. PvP items should be the coolest (i.e. not necessarily the best, or are the best in PvP situations). Resource gathering is tedious, so is crafting. There has to be a reason to craft. Otherwise, why have it to begin with? Because players want it is not a reason to have it in the game. Crafting is not a mini-game, it is meant to accentuate the game, not distract from it. Crafting is a facet of MMOs, but certainly not the Star Wars Universe. Crafting needs to be as much a concern as the storyline, otherwise get rid of it.

 

As for Asbalana, I would agree that certain things should be kept cheap, but that should apply to all things in a given tier or grouping. As it stands, Desh and Silica should be as important to Armormechs, Cybertechs, and Armstechs as Rubat Crystals and Lost Artifact Fragments are to Artificers and Synthweavers, but it is not. This is the point of my post. The basic materials are Green Goo, Rubat Crystals, Color Crystals, Silica, and Desh. These are the items first used to start crafting. If there is a disparity of +/- 20%, this is just normal. The disparity, on at least 3 servers that I have been testing this theory on, is over 1000%. Check out your own server and see.

[Thylbanus]

OK. Perhaps I'm not being clear. So to be clear, I'm going to get technical. Here are my findings as of Friday 17th of August, 5pm.

 

HARBINGER SERVER

 

Green Goo 50-100 cr/unit 75 cr/unit average

Desh 25-65 cr/unit 45 cr/unit average

Silica 10-30 cr/unit 20 cr/unit average

Rubat Crystals 200-300 cr/unit 250 cr/unit average

Color Crystals 5-20 cr/unit 13 cr/unit average

 

Price range for basic materials: 5-300 cr/unit 81 cr/unit average (sum of averages)

Range: -94% - 370%

Min/Max range: 6000% (300/5)

Min/Max Average: 1154% (250/13)

Target ranges: 65-97 cr/unit

 

SHADOWLANDS SERVER

 

Green Goo 25-100 cr/unit 63 cr/unit average

Desh 5-30 cr/unit 18 cr/unit average

Silica 23 cr/unit 23 cr/unit average

Rubat Crystals 350-500 cr/unit 425 cr/unit average

Color Crystals 5-31 cr/unit 18 cr/unit average

 

Price range for basic materials: 5-500 cr/unit 110 cr/unit average (sum of averages)

Range: -95% - 455%

Min/Max range: 10,000% (500/5)

Min/Max Average: 2361% (425/18)

Target ranges: 88-132 cr/unit

 

JEDI CONVENANT SERVER

 

Green Goo 50-230 cr/unit 140 cr/unit average

Desh 60-80 cr/unit 70 cr/unit average

Silica 25-45 cr/unit 35 cr/unit average

Rubat Crystals 300-400 cr/unit 350 cr/unit average

Color Crystals 25-45 cr/unit 35 cr/unit average

 

Price range for basic materials: 25-400 cr/unit 165 cr/unit average (sum of averages)

Range: -85% - 242%

Min/Max range: 1600% (400/25)

Min/Max Average: 1000% (350/35)

Target ranges: 132-198 cr/unit

 

As you can see there is a huge disparity between like items. The target ranges are what they should be ranging on each server. Anything above or below is abnormal. Min/max is the highest price divided by the lowest price given in percentile. This shows how bad the disparity is. 150% is normal given such a limited number of items. As you can see the best server is still over 10 times what it should be and 6 times against the average. Price ranges are determined by eliminating aberrant pricing of sellers just trying to dump or store material.

[Kerensk]

My head's spinning from the post but I'll see if I can chime in (I'm on Harbinger too).

 

Desh and Silica is so common it's worthless. My scavenger found it all over the place so the nodes are a bit common.

But the other problem is the fact that nobody wants what Desh and Silica alone makes. All it's used for is about lv 1-15 green items that I can't give away. To grow into blue gear (and higher crew skilIs) I always get hung up needing laminoid, chanlon, plasteel, etc. Those can sell for upwards of 1000-2000ea.

 

I think for those common items it's as much of a problem moving stock out as it is bringing materials in. Too much in, not enough out. Rather than a market issue I think it stems from the fact that characters leveling upto 20 move so fast and get so many drops from the story there is no need for that market. When you pass level 20, and the materials needed to make level 20 items, things smooth out alot more.

[Cleet_Xia]

Part of it is that the scavenging matterials are used by Armormech/Armstech/Cybertech - so the game was balanced to keep there from being too much competition for the low level scavenged mats. But no one is taking Armstech as a skill, so that is part of the glut. (look st the cost of (340) purple investigation missions ~ it's so low because no one is taking the Armstech mission skill)

 

There is also an imbalance with how frequently the scavenged compounds can be found vs the scavenged metals. It's obvious from the prices on the GTN.

 

And lastly there is an imbalance in the drop rates for the various scavenged compounds from the crew missions, with one dropping far more frequently than the other.

 

This has led to some outrageous prices for certain scavenged compounds on the GTN, like Laminoid.

[asbalana]

Part of it is that the scavenging matterials are used by Armormech/Armstech/Cybertech - so the game was balanced to keep there from being too much competition for the low level scavenged mats. But no one is taking Armstech as a skill, so that is part of the glut. (look st the cost of (340) purple investigation missions ~ it's so low because no one is taking the Armstech mission skill)

 

There is also an imbalance with how frequently the scavenged compounds can be found vs the scavenged metals. It's obvious from the prices on the GTN.

 

And lastly there is an imbalance in the drop rates for the various scavenged compounds from the crew missions, with one dropping far more frequently than the other.

 

This has led to some outrageous prices for certain scavenged compounds on the GTN, like Laminoid.

 

Very true. Sometimes I wonder how much crafting (whatever that means) is going on in the game.

 

The drop rates of metals / samples compared to compounds does seem to be out of whack and the RE process with long fail strings being common sucks up a lot of mats which will drive up the price of the less common.

 

As far as the Investigation missions, I half agree. Other than barrels and blasters Armstech does not seem to be of much use. My commando (and companion) got moddable weapons at level 9 or 10 and I have never crafted anything for them. As I remember (perhaps I am wrong), my purple blasters only take two purple investigation mats to craft so there is no drain there and there is no way to sell them on the GTN so I am not using the Investigation mats in my trade. I leveled Armstech to 400 to help outfit one of my wife's companions a while back and find it strange that as I am leveling a commando, it is of little to no use for me other than again crafting blasters for one of my companions and an odd barrel every so often. The joke is that the RE process is so rng broken, that often it is easier and way cheaper to buy a barrel every three or four levels than make my own.

 

But, to me, the real reason Investigation Missions are worthless is because it is so easy to get purple mats without running the special missions. When I log onto a character with Investigation and look at the missions, I invariably find an abundent at level six and multiple rich missions at the lower levels. So I send out my companions and log off. When I get back on, most of the time I find that four to eight purples have been returned. I have at least 200 purple mats at each Investigation level, just by running normal missions and so have no reason to buy an Investigation mission. They are cheap because the mats (as you said) are not much used and because they can be easily obtained without them. Contrast that with UT and compare the number of abundant (at level 6) and rich missions (at other levels) that can be run.

Edited August 18, 2012 by asbalana

[Thylbanus]

When you pass level 20, and the materials needed to make level 20 items, things smooth out alot more.

 

You highlight my point. With this going F2P soon, this will be a major issue. If people get frustrated with crafting early, they will probably not sub (for those who love crafting, that is). The whole point of going F2P is to keep the game going, and as I've said, for some reason I love this game (with it's multitude of flaws).

 

Cleet_Xia - I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this imbalance. This is why I espouse the monitoring of consumption. If it's not being used, why put it in the game (kind of like all the MILLIONS of pieces of junk!). The crafting system has been put on auto-pilot and no one has bothered to check to see if it's running properly. Well there is a mountain up ahead, so someone needs to take the stick.

 

And sorry Kerensk, it's just the way my mind functions. I can't even keep my job out of my entertainment.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Thylbanus

[Raora]

Green goo, desh and silica are soooo cheap even at 200cr/unit I still do not know why this is even a thread. Now, if it was Mutagenic paste selling for 2500cr/unit then I can see a point in being upset.

[psandak]

Yes, you missed my point. I don't care if it is 20 cr/unit or 2,000,000 cr/ unit, I just want it to be uniform

 

NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!

 

Supply and demand fluctuate wildly in MMOs. Especially in a "more mature" economy. You just have to get used to riding the waves of supply and demand and be diverse enough in what you supply to not fall into a trough.

[Thylbanus]

NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!

 

Supply and demand fluctuate wildly in MMOs. Especially in a "more mature" economy. You just have to get used to riding the waves of supply and demand and be diverse enough in what you supply to not fall into a trough.

 

It happens in other games. Never say never.

[psandak]

It happens in other games. Never say never.

 

Show me evidence where ALL material values (of the same level of material i.e. ALL grade 6 materials in SWTOR) remain consistent AND uniform in ANY MMO for more than a week and I will say I am wrong.

 

Values can align at intervals, but it can't last. MMOs are supply and demand economies with infinite supply (all anyone has to do is take the time to "harvest" the materials), and constantly fluctuating demand (no one needs one thing all the time). As old markets dry up (due to lack of demand, or too much competition, or both), new markets open up (due to lack of supply, or little competition, or both). And this process is cyclical; those old markets become the new markets eventually. Even fairly consistent markets like consumables (i.e. Stims in SWTOR), eventually slow down because those consumables are less needed due to over-gearing.

 

I've been playing MMOs for close to 15 years, and have worked the "marketplace" in all of the MMOs I have played. And in all that time, I have never seen material or finished good values remain consistent long enough for all equivalent items to be equal. It just does not happen.

[Thylbanus]

Show me evidence where ALL material values (of the same level of material i.e. ALL grade 6 materials in SWTOR) remain consistent AND uniform in ANY MMO for more than a week and I will say I am wrong.

 

Values can align at intervals, but it can't last. MMOs are supply and demand economies with infinite supply (all anyone has to do is take the time to "harvest" the materials), and constantly fluctuating demand (no one needs one thing all the time). As old markets dry up (due to lack of demand, or too much competition, or both), new markets open up (due to lack of supply, or little competition, or both). And this process is cyclical; those old markets become the new markets eventually. Even fairly consistent markets like consumables (i.e. Stims in SWTOR), eventually slow down because those consumables are less needed due to over-gearing.

 

I've been playing MMOs for close to 15 years, and have worked the "marketplace" in all of the MMOs I have played. And in all that time, I have never seen material or finished good values remain consistent long enough for all equivalent items to be equal. It just does not happen.

 

Ever play LotRO?

Just checked the Riddermark and class 1 mats are going from 25-100, class 2 150-300, class 3 only had 1 item so can't count that, class 4 600-1200, no class 5 or above. Perhaps the Riddermark is the "anomaly" of the MMO world. I don't have characters on other servers so I didn't check. I'm not saying that there is no ebb and flow, but when you are talking variations of 10,000%, that is a little over the top. There is a difference between market fluctuations and a poorly designed crafting system. This is the latter. I've been playing MMOs for over 20 years, since the time of Meridia 59, and I know how to spot problems with gaming systems.

 

I'm used to being in the minority, when I beta tested this game, I said that it would be F2P within a year. I was trolled endlessly because of it. I posted tirelessly about lack of end game content, poor pvp options, space combat, lack of mini-games like pazzack and swoop racing that are iconic in the Old Republics, race selection, Clone Wars cartoon style graphics, weapon selections (still want to point out Luke and Obi-wan used blasters, and even in the "Return" trailer, Master Kao Cen Darach used a double bladed lightsaber and single at the same time), character customization, lack of class variation, too much reliance on side quests, and more. All of these things are (or were) complaints of the current community. Back then, I was among a very few who felt this way, everyone else just seemed to excited about being in the beta to be objective.

 

Time will bear me out, just as it has always done.

[Metalmac]

NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!

 

Supply and demand fluctuate wildly in MMOs. Especially in a "more mature" economy. You just have to get used to riding the waves of supply and demand and be diverse enough in what you supply to not fall into a trough.

 

Supply and demand can be CONTROLLED if you own most of the market, this is the failure of Supply and Demand.

People do not understand that Supply and Demand are not a entirely good thing, they are what they are......

 

More BioWare controls need to be in place just like the real economy or you get a insane market like we have now.