Why is RP-PvE more popular than RP-PvP?

[mrfoughtforever]

Full immersion role-play isn't possible in a video game, which makes this whole conversation rather silly.

[Sivri]

To me it comes down to the fact that I just don't like PvP all that much. I feel restricted by it, and I feel that I literally have to roleplay my class, something I only rarely do. There's always going to be something that my character can as as game-mechanic, but something that I do not want my character to be able to do IC'ly.

When fights occur, I take them in an emote-fight instead where I can let my character be herself rather than something the game-mechanics decided.

 

Personal preference, really - I doubt there's going to be any solid reason why one style is preferred over another.

[Tallian]

Full immersion role-play isn't possible in a video game, which makes this whole conversation rather silly.

 

Thats your limitation, sorry. Some of us can get to an incredible level of immersion in the game via the mechanism called 'Suspension of disbelief'. I have at least one freind who assists this by turning off every piece of feedback the game will let him(nameplates, floating text, pretty much everything but toolbars).

 

Don't say full immersion is impossible, just that its impossible for you.

[Tallian]

I don't know if the Republic and Empire would attack each other at random on a constant basis. Don't they have a tense peace treaty? At least at the start of the game? Sure there is lots of conflict and fighting between the two, make no mistake of that, but like someone else said, I kind of figured it would be more....organized than total chaotic man slaughter.

 

 

The next part of it is that people have itchy trigger fingers. Just because you can kill someone doesn't mean you should. If you're *immersively* roleplaying how realistic is it to go out of your way to kill someone without the slightest provocation? A good deal of people on RP servers aren't even RPers so you have people who are killing you just because they can as well as griefers. If you are having a tender moment out in the woods alone then you're more likely to disregard it than actually accept it as RP. If there's an option to attack, people often choose to no matter what, even RPers I've found do the same.

 

 

So in short, mostly the griefing potential and trigger happy individuals discourages rp-pvp servers. (And you can still do organized rp-pvp on a normal one as well.)

 

in theory, very simple fix to this. If its RP-PVP, then you need a valid, in-game reason to attack.

 

Fortunately, sith generally attack anything that moves(am I the only one disapppointed we can't kill our own questgivers?) and jedi are trained to attack sith on sight, out of fear that talking to them will lead to darkside corruption. This leave our gun toting friends, and I rather more trust them to RP well than those of us who chose to wield glowbats.

[Tallian]

Triple post FTW!!!

 

And I could round up a posse to go beat them ICly, sure, but for me, I'd rather not have to even bother. I just like doing my thing, RPing with my friends, and the people I choose to RP with. PvE servers are much more consensual RP than non-consensual, and for me, consent is a huge part of RP. You don't get to do anything to my characters unless I consent to it first. Does that mean I godmode? In a meta-way, perhaps, but my characters will fight and lose more than they fight and win, but only if I've consented to the loss beforehand, and because I know it will make for a more well-crafted story and character development, not just because someone wants to prove they have a "better" character than me, mechanically.

 

You'er not role-playing. You are storytelling. There is a bit of a difference. A true role player will only say what his character does, in response to the environment that the GM and other players provide. In this case our GM is the cold hard mechanical rules of a computer, and some of our other players are idiots who don't care about your experience, but that really just makes for better role playing. If you have to approve anything happening to your character before it can happen, tho, thats not being in a role. Nor is it you BEING the character, its just you CONTROLLING the character, which is not what roleplaying is.

[Saide]

To add my few cents, last time on MMO, I migrated pretty fast to RP-PvP servers when they opened. If for a simple fact that I could not stand people taunting me in their non-PvP form on PvE server, and I could not react to it appropriately. While on PvP server, taunting someone might as well mean you force their hand to attack.

 

Same as those of enemy ranks walking in our towns with PvP unflagged and me, playing a defender of that said region could only watch and cry.

 

What I have actually seen in PvP driven enviroment was a tense diplomatic standoff between warring sides (even when we had to use a translator in form of two people translating on Skype for each side, playing that these two were the only ones knowing both languages).

 

And add to it, the great feeling when you roleplay WHILE you defeat some core PvP griefer along that said roleplay, that is a sweet sweet thing to happen.

 

And lastly, last few years I roleplayed in consent driven enviroment in a game with almost no PvP mechanics that would be any worth. I have to say, the consent can be one of the most griefing and immersion shattering tools ever to happen to roleplay world.

 

So to sum it up:

World happens - characters react.

[BrianDavion]

Can someone help me understand this. In my opinion Roleplaying is all about immersing yourself in the game world, feeling like you're part of it and that there's nothing unnatural stopping you from being who you want to be. So naturally I feel a PvP server, where the freedom of attacking whoever you want (on the opposite side) is present, is the best suited type of server for RP.

 

Wouldn't the PvE mechanics break immersion? You're standing next to a player of your opposing faction with your lightsaber/blaster ready but simply can't touch the person because of some other-wordly intervention called "pvp-flag". To me that breaks the spell of being in a world of war, conflict and constant danger.

 

On the other hand, I can understand the annoyance of people who are in the server NOT to RP and might try to destroy the experience for RP'ers which is easier to do in a PvP server. But really, to me that's an added danger of the world that can be easily "embedded" in the roleplay.

 

So what is your stance on this? Why did you choose RP-PvE or RP-PvP?

 

 

// Alkara Nelien

 

this is easy to answer, RP-PVP servers provoke greifing, I've seen it before and I'll avoid it.

 

if I wanna PVP I can flag for it. PVE may break immersion but so does getting killedby some moronic kiddy screaming "LOL RP *insert random mockery here*!" in shout

Edited December 23, 2011 by BrianDavion

[Tsillah]

There is one element that makes a big difference.

 

When it comes to immersion and getting close to reality if you will, the real RP server would be a hardcore RP-PvP server. Meaning that when your character dies, you have to make a new character.

 

So, a RP-PvP server is actually less realistic to me, because PvP will cause you to die and needing to be ressed much more frequently than in PvE. Dying and ressing breaks immersion and PvP therefore makes that worse in my view.

[Phoenikzi]

I've been a keen RP'er for 26 years and have been RP'ing with MMO's for around 10. Every instinct and experience I have suggests that PvP provides a superior RP environment. There is no better RP in an MMO that when enemies that are a genuine threat to one another get to exchange words and blows... it's immersive, it's tense, it's meaningful with real consequences, and sometimes it's very funny. The common whinge of griefing is actually a very rare occurance on the RP PvP servers I've played on over various games.

When I first encountered emote and roll fighting being used by MMO 'RP'ers' I was shocked, and to be honest I still find it quite ridiculous. Powerful characters should arise from their in-game experience and that includes the gear which (to me) is just another MMO mechanic for said experience. The PvP environment when populated by a significant proportion of dedicated RP'ers on both sides is always gonna be the way I want to play ... PvE RP is a poor second and a last resort.

[Tallian]

There is one element that makes a big difference.

 

When it comes to immersion and getting close to reality if you will, the real RP server would be a hardcore RP-PvP server. Meaning that when your character dies, you have to make a new character.

 

So, a RP-PvP server is actually less realistic to me, because PvP will cause you to die and needing to be ressed much more frequently than in PvE. Dying and ressing breaks immersion and PvP therefore makes that worse in my view.

 

I agree with this, but its not likely to ever happen again. Simply put, only the first characters on that server can have a chance, simply because once they are established they will win most fights. I HAVE played games like that, and it was the best rp pvp ever, but not many people were willing to play.

 

Remember the Black Knight episode of the Simpsons?

[DrWill]

When I first encountered emote and roll fighting being used by MMO 'RP'ers' I was shocked, and to be honest I still find it quite ridiculous. Powerful characters should arise from their in-game experience and that includes the gear which (to me) is just another MMO mechanic for said experience.

 

I admit, /roll fighting came as a surprise to me when I first encountered it - although freeform emote combat was less of a shock to the system, from experience of diceless P&P RPGs in my younger days.

 

That said, they do provide a level playing field, and they give outlet to players who enjoy turn-based combat systems (which describes most P&P RPG systems, to be fair - I've only encountered a couple of real-time P&P systems, and none I could tolerate for more than a brief experiment). Real-time MMO combat, relying on cooldowns and twitch reflex might, ironically, not appeal to a chunk of the RP player base - those who prefer to actually describe what their character is attempting, and then see if it succeeds, rather than relying exclusively on the mechanics present within the game. To such players, the game engine is more of a graphic game table, where their characters can meet and interact with other characters - it might seem backwards logic, but at least there is a rationale.

 

Further to that, there may be RPers who want to participate in endgame PvE content, and be of the (erroneous) opinion that they'll find more talented PvEers to group with on a RP-PvE server.

 

Last, there is the issue you mention of 'gear level = character power'. That is a can of worms in and of itself. How did your character obtain the gear? Oh, they killed X NPC? Wow, I killed X NPC three times last week!

 

It's an issue that never arises in P&P games, mainly because groups are comparatively consistent, character migration is a minor consideration, and the odds of multiple characters within a party having independently bested the same necromancer are minimal and can be dealt with by gentleman's agreements of the 'we just don't talk about it' kind. But if the entire justification for a character's ability hinges upon the pure mechanics of an MMO's plot and system, it hinders roleplay more than it helps it. By which I mean there are many reasons RPers might prefer a RP-PvP server over an RP-PvE server, but "It means I can brag about winning the great hunt, right next to a dozen other people who brag about winning the great hunt" isn't one of them.

[JarlKnight]

It is true in theory that RP-PVP is more realistic and more immersive than RP-PVE.

 

The problem is that this is not theory.

 

Anakin had to think through before attacking Mace Windu. Darth Maul knew that he was facing two Jedi and was (presumably) fully aware that it could be the death of him. His attack on Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon was a fully thought, serious and meaningful action.

 

On a PVP server, you'll find people who are 30 levels above those they are attacking and even then will attack a single, newbie target in group. No risk, no mission, no thought even. It's just a matter of killing the other to make themselves feel better or for in-game statistics. This is not immersive, and this is not RP. There is no good IC justification to their attacks, other than their target having a red name.

 

I have yet to find meaningful PVP on an open-world PVP server. The only good experience with PVP I had was back in SWG when we were attacking bases and fighting for faction ownership of the planet we were on.

 

If every PVPer on PVP-RP servers were serious Roleplayers, I would jump on an RP-PVP this very second. But experience proves that RP-PVP servers are -not- a good RP environment. They quickly turn into a grief-fest and eventually, a large portion of the serious roleplayers there move on to PVE servers where they can actually RP.

Edited December 23, 2011 by JarlKnight

[fungihoujo]

Mostly because on an RP-PvP server, you're generally not dealing with roleplayers- you're dealing with pvpers. On an RP-PvE server, PvErs can be ignored if you intend to roleplay... PvPers though can't.

 

If BW had said they were enforcing RP on their RP servers, and I honestly felt they meant it and these servers would be mostly RPers, I'd join an RP-PvP server... but, when it comes to the nonRP pver, and the nonRP pvper, I'd rather deal with a pver over a pvper a million times, mostly due to past experiences on such servers.

 

RP is only one of the things many of us look for on an RP server- the other is maturity, and I don't think I'm alone in my opinion that the average pvper is less mature in the way they behave.

 

Which is why we see fewer on RP-PvP servers... also, most people just want to enjoy the game, play through the stories, and they don't enjoy being ganked when fighting a mob, or by someone twice their level.

[yutrio]

I guess perhaps the difference is the desire for less and more dynamic playing experiences, then? Does that make sense?

 

This is pretty much the reason why I prefer a RP-PvP environment over a RP-PvE one. There's something about the unpredictable, spontaneous nature that a RP-PvP server can bring that you can't really find on RP-PvE ones.

 

Personally, I favor more of a improv approach to RP, than to have carefully crafted storylines where everything is planned out in advance. There are advantages to having planned storylines (and having some structure in RP is very important). But, sometimes not knowing what'll happen to your character in a given situation, and seeing how they react to the unexpected is the exciting part about it.

Edited December 24, 2011 by yutrio

[SelinaK]

PVP RP is not the same at all no one can RP when idiots (usually not rp'ing) are able to attack anywhere - in an ideal world, it is better and I would totally agree in being able to fight out RP fights, it's nice to at least have as an alternative to RP fights out in text when it's more fun and it's with someone that has a character OOC that is equivalent to their character IC... The problem is, most of the time it isn't like that due to the nature of how most online games are set up, and with no way to agree between players an option to have a handicap or boost for one player before they fight. The fact is most of the time on a PVP server there's just no such thing, there is very little RP because everyone can't stop moving to stop and type or die, the way it works the fastest moving is the winner .

 

It just never actually ends up that civilised, idealistic way of having realistic IC fights because there is never any reason given for fights and there are more people that are immature and always want to win than those that care about a good story. As long as you have no opt-out or opt-in, that will always happen.

 

What I would like to see is more options for facilitating consensual PVP in the PVE servers (an option to set up a group and turn it into a pvp fight group with two teams etc, in the open world, would be great, as well as the option previously mentioned to handicap or boost other players, like City of Villains' arena duel system) so that it's not so much an either or thing.

 

I like story and character in my games, but I like a option to PVP too. Before issue 13 in City of Heroes (when they greatly slowed down PVP and made it less about tactics and more about buffs) I remember good times picking off whole groups one by one in Recluse's Victory as my assassin-type character, with people actually setting up hunt teams and contracts to kill me, it was great fun, all OOC but it was so intense it may as well have been IC. Similarly in APB (before it became more unbalanced with it becoming more about who grinded the most stat-affecting items like here than who is the smartest and faster-reacting) I absolutely loved the PVP there which really made you get into the role chasing criminals across rooftops whilst having abuse hurled at you and ambushes laid (or hiding in the shadows in wait at a dropoff point to bust them)! (you'd think I'd become a thief huh! But I like being the hunter rather than the prey too much. ) But at the moment PVP RP servers do not give that, they are simply PVP servers with a different name slapped on them due to the non-consensual nature and that RP is not enforced. They never, ever, work.

Edited December 24, 2011 by SelinaK

[yutrio]

PVP RP is not the same at all no one can RP when idiots (usually not rp'ing) are able to attack anywhere - in an ideal world, it is better and I would totally agree in being able to fight out RP fights, it's nice to at least have as an alternative to RP fights out in text when it's more fun and it's with someone that has a character OOC that is equivalent to their character IC... The problem is, most of the time it isn't like that due to the nature of how most online games are set up, and with no way to agree between players an option to have a handicap or boost for one player before they fight. The fact is most of the time on a PVP server there's just no such thing, there is very little RP because everyone can't stop moving to stop and type or die, the way it works the fastest moving is the winner .

 

It just never actually ends up that civilised, idealistic way of having realistic IC fights because there is never any reason given for fights and there are more people that are immature and always want to win than those that care about a good story. As long as you have no opt-out or opt-in, that will always happen.

 

What I would like to see is more options for facilitating consensual PVP in the PVE servers (an option to set up a group and turn it into a pvp fight group with two teams etc, in the open world, would be great, as well as the option previously mentioned to handicap or boost other players, like City of Villains' arena duel system) so that it's not so much an either or thing.

 

I like story and character in my games, but I like a option to PVP too. Before issue 13 in City of Heroes (when they greatly slowed down PVP and made it less about tactics and more about buffs) I remember good times picking off whole groups one by one in Recluse's Victory as my assassin-type character, with people actually setting up hunt teams and contracts to kill me, it was great fun, all OOC but it was so intense it may as well have been IC. Similarly in APB (before it became more unbalanced with it becoming more about who grinded the most stat-affecting items like here than who is the smartest and faster-reacting) I absolutely loved the PVP there which really made you get into the role chasing criminals across rooftops whilst having abuse hurled at you and ambushes laid (or hiding in the shadows in wait at a dropoff point to bust them)! (you'd think I'd become a thief huh! But I like being the hunter rather than the prey too much. ) But at the moment PVP RP servers do not give that, they are simply PVP servers with a different name slapped on them due to the non-consensual nature and that RP is not enforced. They never, ever, work.

 

Mirrored from my reply on the big discussion thread here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=51444&page=9

 

It all comes down to a server's community. Is it a shame that more can't be done to police these servers? Yeah, but you eventually begin to create workarounds to avoid the problem of griefers and whatnot. Or, you could look at it in a different light, such as the example that was given earlier about people hiring bodyguards and mercs to protect themselves from being ganked in AoC. Those are opportunities for RP to created.

 

And, I think that even if RP-PvP servers were "perfect", people would -still- be complaining about it for the reasons you mentioned: people in general are immature and are more concerned about their characters winning and being a ****** over a good story. It's part of human nature, I think, that people want to be number one.

 

And honestly, I think for many RPers that are more into RP-PvP, griefers don't really bother them at all. Personally, if I had a choice between dealing with a RP griefer and a RP elitist, I'd rather deal with the griefer.

Edited December 24, 2011 by yutrio

[Grazzt]

In my opinion Roleplaying is all about immersing yourself in the game world, feeling like you're part of it and that there's nothing unnatural stopping you from being who you want to be. So naturally I feel a PvP server, where the freedom of attacking whoever you want (on the opposite side) is present, is the best suited type of server for RP.

 

I was just about to start the exact same thead

 

Yes, of course, in my opinion the only "true" way to really role-play is on a RP-Open-PvP server, that's the most realistic thing there can be...

 

That's why i looooooved the early days of Lineage II, and its open-PvP world, you always had to watch your back whenever you left town, cos you never knew who'd be attacking you, this feeling was just awesome and i still have to find it yet on another MMO...

 

But, for some reason that i still dont understand, even after reading this thread, most RPers prefer a RP-PvE server ... beats me

 

Two quotes from this thread that really sums it up for me :

Look at what 80% (guesstimate) of RP has become - tavern RP.

and :

I loved the fact that, in this community, you have to put your money where your mouth is. Are you a big bad dude who can kick my *** and enforce his reputation? Prove it. If you can't prove it, I don't give a crap, and neither does anyone else.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Grazzt

[Haalewijn]

I enjoy roleplaying. I don't enjoy PvP. Simple as that.

[Grazzt]

I enjoy roleplaying. I don't enjoy PvP. Simple as that.

 

Well, i respect your opinion of course, everyone plays their game the way they want to, but i still cannot understand how you can really role-play in a non-PvP environment ??

 

"Hmmm .... excuse me sir, you just pissed me off so i would like to attack you .... but we're in safe zone, so ... i can't ... care to join me in a PvP zone ?"

[SelinaK]

Two quotes from this thread that really sums it up for me :

 

and :

After that, I did WoW for 5 years in an RP-PVP server. I loved the fact that, in this community, you have to put your money where your mouth is. Are you a big bad dude who can kick my *** and enforce his reputation? Prove it. If you can't prove it, I don't give a crap, and neither does anyone else.

 

I don't consider the "That Which Has No Life" (nearly always a) guys that has spent a bazillion hours and a gazillion cash (not even bought from goldfarmers, also often the type that actually cares more about numbers than playing the game) deserving of having any kind of reputation other than well, somewhat sad. I don't want to be in that kind of community where the people that do the best are those that have spent the most time than anything else. :/ Maybe this comes from having started off in things like Quake 3 and Savage the Battle for Newerth when I was little though (used to be in one of those notorious girl gaming clans ) as well as the stuff mentiond previously above... I just don't really find fights that are about "ganking" people with less stuff than you fun. "I want to feel adrenaline coming out of my ears and your blood on my lips..." (In RP, In RP, i swear)

 

If there was an option as described in my previous post above to enable more consensual RP, with the option to handicap or boost individuals and arrange fights between people, it would be much more fun (and also much more RP friendly when people are not the same amount of level etc as they would be in their RP - as long as it's all consensual between people agreeing to fight, why not?). I'd love to see an option that equalised skills and gear so that it's more like the kind of actiony fun in DC online's Legends mode where no one has any advantages, it's about being better with what is available.

 

And I think "PVE" servers are best suited for this. I think the idea of there being a huge separation with ALWAYS pvp or NO pvp to be a stupid and outdated one that seems like it was copied straight from Warcrap without trying to innovate!

Edited December 24, 2011 by SelinaK

[krisslanza]

Well, i respect your opinion of course, everyone plays their game the way they want to, but i still cannot understand how you can really role-play in a non-PvP environment ??

 

"Hmmm .... excuse me sir, you just pissed me off so i would like to attack you .... but we're in safe zone, so ... i can't ... care to join me in a PvP zone ?"

 

I don't think this is the issue RPers have too much. Usually if that happens, you can just arrange for it to happen.

 

The bigger issue is non-RPers. Namely the kind who tend to love PvP servers because they can camp their level 50, in a level 20-30 zone and just kill people all day over and over. It might be kind of appropriate perhaps, but the "war" in the game is a cold war. So going out and mercilessly slaughtering people, is kind of against that.

 

It's usually PvP griefers that turn people off from wanting to stay on a PvP-enabled server. Sure it can be fun to get into a fight with someone around your level, but it's no fun when some max-level player just does it because they like to interrupt people from leveling up or something.

 

Also RP-PvP servers have that version of griefer known as the "RP griefer", and they target RPers specifically. If they suspect you RP, they'll probably just gank you at every chance and likely insult you for RPing.

[Grazzt]

[...]when people are not the same amount of level etc as they would be in their RP

 

But see, that's exactly my point !!

How can you NOT be of the same level ingame and in your RP ??

 

Does that mean that a lv.1 newbie that has no clue about anything can claim to be a Dark Lord of the Sith, just because he says so "in his RP" ?? That's just plain ridiculous...

 

Maybe that's another reason why i prefer RP-PvP, at least on those kind of server you cannot say "bow before me and my awesome power you worms" when you still hold a training vibroblade

 

Seriously, i like my RP to follow my evolution ingame, and my evolution ingame to follow my RP ... I started roleplaying with the Red Box Basic Dungeons & Dragons some 25 years ago, and that's the way we had to do it back then, merging the RP with the rules and the evolution of our characters, and i still think that's the way to do it now.

 

Because if you dont do that, why do you even need to play a computer game in the first place ? Just write stories and publish them on the internet

[Grazzt]

The bigger issue is non-RPers. Namely the kind who tend to love PvP servers because they can camp their level 50, in a level 20-30 zone and just kill people all day over and over.

 

Well, then these people have pure PvP servers, and tons of them on SWTOR, why would they want to join an always-full RP-PvP server if they dont want to RP ?

 

 

Also RP-PvP servers have that version of griefer known as the "RP griefer", and they target RPers specifically. If they suspect you RP, they'll probably just gank you at every chance and likely insult you for RPing.

 

I've never seen that in any RP-PvP server yet, and i may have seen that maybe once or twice in my 5 years of playing Lineage II, which is THE PvP game at its absolute best (and sometimes worse).

Some people were indeed looking at the forums to see when the RP events would take place, and apparently enjoyed coming and ruining everything ... but again, i only saw this once or twice, in a non-RP, open-PvP game so ... dont be paranoid here, dont be a cute carebear, and come join the only "realistic" RP server

[Disastersaurus]

in theory, very simple fix to this. If its RP-PVP, then you need a valid, in-game reason to attack.

 

Fortunately, sith generally attack anything that moves(am I the only one disapppointed we can't kill our own questgivers?) and jedi are trained to attack sith on sight, out of fear that talking to them will lead to darkside corruption. This leave our gun toting friends, and I rather more trust them to RP well than those of us who chose to wield glowbats.

 

Okay this isn't true. Jedi are not trained to attack Sith on sight, Jedi are specifically trained never to attack ANYONE on sight. A Jedi fights only defensively.

[DrWill]

But see, that's exactly my point !!

How can you NOT be of the same level ingame and in your RP ??

 

And there we have the problem. Level is an abstract, mechanical concept. Personally, I've never seen the point in roleplaying a character I'm not willing to level up - but that is completely removed from the roleplay itself. Unless your roleplay is completely hemmed in by mechanics - meaning, you can 'emote' nothing that your character cannot do (such as, in TOR, sitting in a chair without looking like a pillock) - your character's mechanical level has nothing to do with it. The reductio ad absurdum extension of this, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, is that every character of the same class has the same backstory and experiences, many of them mutually contradictory.

 

It comes down to how the individual likes the flavour of their roleplay, and countless external factors including, but not limited to, which server their guild is joining, which server their friends play on, which server has the best "reputation". Personally, I tend to have characters on both RP-PvE and RP-PvP servers, because I like the grass on both sides of the fence.

 

Sadly, understanding both arguments doesn't really provide inroads for mutual acceptance. As such, threads like this serve little purpose save to foster pointless emnity and rows where one side is stereotyped as 'nabs who can't play and run around on L1 alts claiming they're Queen of X' and the other being stereotyped as 'a bunch of fourteen year old gankers who think joblessness is akin to godliness'. Such is human nature.