Are there any hardcore guilds left?

[cshouston]

It started with Condemned leaving 3 months ago... then Retribution, Nightmares Asylum more or less died, Might is going back to WoW (Chrome's French translation is bad, but I think Millenium is gone too)... so on and so forth. All the folks who were gung-ho about the game started dropping like flies. Then BioWare stopped listening to us, stopped communicating with us, stopped responding to our emails. What little endgame community this game had shriveled up and died, and it just keeps getting worse.

 

BioWare... talk to your players, your fans, because you're running out of precious time to keep this game viable. You're always going to lose casuals, but you're losing/have lost the hardcore and THAT is a huge warning sign.

 

As for us...

 

Nerf Dialogue is leaving Star Wars: The Old Republic behind.

 

After many grand achievements, including World #3 for Tier 1 16m Nightmare(as well as the first and only pre-nerf HM Bonethrasher kill in the United States) and World #1 for Tier 2 8m Hard content, we feel that the game is stalling. BioWare is moving too slowly on content, not communicating with its players, and the game is no longer worth our subscription fees.

 

We've set our sights on Guild Wars 2, where we hope to be a major player in both PvE and PvP on the Darkhaven server. If you're interested in joining us, and playing with some high caliber gamers, feel free to apply at our website, http://www.nerfdialogue.com.

 

Have fun dominating new content with no competition, Methodical & CKN. (not sarcasm, truly)

You might just be the only two serious guilds left.

Edited July 29, 2012 by cshouston

[WickedJediKnight]

Melodramatic much?

 

I agree that BW is struggling here, but your guild leaving is not as great a loss as you make it out to be. It doesn't need a R.I.P or memorial. Seriously.... The game has been out 7 months.

 

Does the "I'm taking my ball and going home" mentality ever actually work?? If the mass exodus seen by SOE in SW:G didn't motivate them to fix it, your omgwtfpwnbbq guild leaving won't matter either.

[pure_laced]

Melodramatic much?

 

I agree that BW is struggling here, but your guild leaving is not as great a loss as you make it out to be. It doesn't need a R.I.P or memorial. Seriously.... The game has been out 7 months.

 

Does the "I'm taking my ball and going home" mentality ever actually work?? If the mass exodus seen by SOE in SW:G didn't motivate them to fix it, your omgwtfpwnbbq guild leaving won't matter either.

 

We have to be dramatic to a point because BioWare is the exact opposite, complacent. The lack of communication at this point from BW with GW2 and MoP with release dates on the horizon astounds me. Not even a snippet of "Hey guys, we are working hard on the new Ops and we plan to have it released on the PTS late August with a late September live date. Here are a few screenshots to look at."

 

Something...anything...but instead we are grasping at straws that don't exist. As it stands right now, we have decided for MoP as our destination while not entirely giving up on SWTOR. Our plan will be SWTOR on Tuesday clears because the content is that easy, and Wed, Thur, Mon for MoP. It might be a good mix of something to do. And...who knows, we might just make the switch permanently. GW2 doesn't appear to have much for endgame PvE content, so we sort of ruled that out already.

 

We wish you guys luck in GW2 and hope it works out for you. I would say it is sorry to see you go, but we might be joining you very shortly.

 

Prediction: Less than 300k subscribers by end of year and F2P by Jan 1.

Edited July 29, 2012 by pure_laced

[invizion]

Well we're giving it until the 20th to see if there is any light on new content, with no news and realistic release time frames, we're going back to WoW and heading to GW2 also, We'll more than likely resub for 1 month for nightmare mode but thats about it for this game for me.

 

What annoys the hell out of me in this game is the people who are meant to be "top of the game" do nothing but whine and moan on the forums consistently over content.

Edited July 29, 2012 by invizion

[cshouston]

We have to be dramatic to a point because BioWare is the exact opposite, complacent. The lack of communication at this point from BW with GW2 and MoP with release dates on the horizon astounds me. Not even a snippet of "Hey guys, we are working hard on the new Ops and we plan to have it released on the PTS late August with a late September live date. Here are a few screenshots to look at."

 

Something...anything...but instead we are grasping at straws that don't exist. As it stands right now, we have decided for MoP as our destination while not entirely giving up on SWTOR. Our plan will be SWTOR on Tuesday clears because the content is that easy, and Wed, Thur, Mon for MoP. It might be a good mix of something to do. And...who knows, we might just make the switch permanently. GW2 doesn't appear to have much for endgame PvE content, so we sort of ruled that out already.

 

We wish you guys luck in GW2 and hope it works out for you. I would say it is sorry to see you go, but we might be joining you very shortly.

 

Prediction: Less than 300k subscribers by end of year and F2P by Jan 1.

 

Good luck guys (and gal!). When the game inevitably goes F2P, depending on content, rate of content, and improvement in communication, we might be back. I doubt it though...

 

MoP was ruled out because many of us left WoW so "forcefully" you might say, that the idea of going back is revolting. GW2 may not have the large scale PvE endgame from WoW/TOR-style MMOs, but there will still be challenging PvE content for us to chew on and a massive, vibrant world to explore. Plus, WvW is a *blast*. You could say we rolled on a PvP server at launch for a reason.

 

If you guys leave, best of luck, and I'm sorry our guild relations were tenuous at best for a while there. In the end, we're all just gamers looking for a challenge and a good time.

 

I guess that just leaves Methodical to keep carrying the torch from Tier 1 days. Keep fighting the good fight, guys.

Edited July 29, 2012 by cshouston

[Kihra]

I guess that just leaves Methodical to keep carrying the torch from Tier 1 days. Keep fighting the good fight, guys.

 

Fighting the good fight only takes about 60-90 minutes on a Tuesday. WTB more good fight to fight!

[Pubsam]

I got the impression that GW2 isn't going to have much intense endgame PvE that the classic MMO raider would expect. Is that not true? They have 5-man dungeons I know. Not saying a 5-man can't be hard, but there's only so much nuance you can put into those fights.

They have those massive event bosses, but from what I've seen from beta they're easy. I mean they're designed for large groups of uncoordinated people to take down.

 

Don't get me wrong, GW2 does have a lot going for it and I plan to play, but from a PvE perspective it looks very casual-oriented. Not sure how you hardcore guys will be satisfied there!

[pure_laced]

Well we're giving it until the 20th to see if there is any light on new content, with no news and realistic release time frames, we're going back to WoW and heading to GW2 also, We'll more than likely resub for 1 month for nightmare mode but thats about it for this game for me.

 

What annoys the hell out of me in this game is the people who are meant to be "top of the game" do nothing but whine and moan on the forums consistently over content.

 

Seriously, it's summer, It's a game, Get some perspective and go outside. If your raiders can't "last until nightmare mode" then they're surely going to flake later on down the line because of other reasons. It's just lame excuses and I've seen them 1000's of times before.

 

So in 4 days of the post above, you have changed your minds and decided to go back to WoW and GW2 as well if nothing is said by the 20th. I could be wrong, and will apologize if I am, but it seems to me you are in the same boat regarding lack of communication and are also fed up because there is nothing to do.

 

I mentioned this in another post - BW failed in allowing Blackhole comms to be gained at the rate they could be obtained, which shortened the content cycle immensely. Most of the hardcore raiders weren't "whining" as you so eloquently put it, just stating facts and hoping to get someone's attention at BW to step up and communicate.

[cshouston]

I got the impression that GW2 isn't going to have much intense endgame PvE that the classic MMO raider would expect. Is that not true? They have 5-man dungeons I know. Not saying a 5-man can't be hard, but there's only so much nuance you can put into those fights.

They have those massive event bosses, but from what I've seen from beta they're easy. I mean they're designed for large groups of uncoordinated people to take down.

 

Don't get me wrong, GW2 does have a lot going for it and I plan to play, but from a PvE perspective it looks very casual-oriented. Not sure how you hardcore guys will be satisfied there!

 

Well, everything you said is true, but there's a lot that Anet haven't shown us yet and nobody reached max level during the beta weekends due to lvl 25 zones being the farthest allowable. It's possible the challenge will be there (it has been said that explorable mode dungeons will be on par with raid difficulties), but for us we have the benefit of enjoying PvP and (in my case during BWE) enjoying the HELL out of the WvW.

 

I'm quoting from this article, but I find this to be rather insightful:

For example, if raiding appeals to you because of the large number of players involved, or because of the "epic" feel of fighting massive bosses, then dynamic events are exactly what you want. Conversely, if raiding appeals to you because of the challenge—the difficulty of the encounters and the requirements of preparation and teamwork—then explorable mode dungeons will provide you with these things.

 

If however you absolutely must have all of these characteristics within a single type of content, then Guild Wars 2 most likely will not be for you, at least in this respect.

 

Finally, worst case scenario, I bought the game for $60 and get, say, 3 months of enjoyment out of it before I move on... that's still $45 cheaper than SWTOR + 3 months of subscription cost me. I feel like I'll get my money's worth from GW2 regardless of how the PvE turns out in the long run.

 

What annoys the hell out of me in this game is the people who are meant to be "top of the game" do nothing but whine and moan on the forums consistently over content.

 

I'm sorry, but I haven't seen *any* of the top ranked hardcore raiding guilds on these forums "whining and moaning" for the last several months. We've all tried to be constructive. If I'm going to moan a little now, it's because BioWare had their chance to reach out to us and communicate, but they passed it up.

Edited July 29, 2012 by cshouston

[Pubsam]

Well, everything you said is true, but there's a lot that Anet haven't shown us yet and nobody reached max level during the beta weekends due to lvl 25 zones being the farthest allowable. It's possible the challenge will be there (it has been said that explorable mode dungeons will be on par with raid difficulties), but for us we have the benefit of enjoying PvP and (in my case during BWE) enjoying the HELL out of the WvW.

 

I'm quoting from this article, but I find this to be rather insightful:

 

Finally, worst case scenario, I bought the game for $60 and get, say, 3 months of enjoyment out of it before I move on... that's still $45 cheaper than SWTOR + 3 months of subscription cost me. I feel like I'll get my money's worth from GW2 regardless of how the PvE turns out in the long run.

.

 

Yes I definitely agree that GW2 is worth the purchase. I only find it hard to imagine that a hardcore guild that eats endgame PvE faster than the developers can produce (I saw this in a lot of WoW tiers as well, let's not pretend ToR is setting a precedent here) will be amused there unless you switch focus to PvP.

I mean look at the thing you quoted. You can either kill stuff that's epic but easy (if you were satisfied with that you guys would still be killing SM Soa every week), or small but challenging (translation: the hardest this will likely be is on par with HM LI. Except without defined combat roles and infinite combat rezzes).

 

I plan to enjoy GW2 a lot. But as a lackadaisical raider ToR suits me well. I feel for you bored guys, but if you really want to raid perhaps go back to WoW, in all honesty. Maybe try Rift? Play all three at once so you always have content? Are there any obscure MMOs out there that specialize in hard core raiding?

[cshouston]

Not that I know of, unfortunately. We are shifting our focus somewhat towards sPvP and WvW, so that should help. Honestly, I'd be happy staying in SWTOR raiding SM Soa level content as long as there was a new, fresh variation on the theme every so often. Sadly, there is not... there is just tedium. If Anet keep their promises about incremental content updates, and their relatively swift expansion release schedule, maybe things will turn out alright.

 

As it stands, I'm happy to try and tackle some difficult content with my 4 best gaming buddies, instead of trying to weed through applicants (on a server with a horrible community like the Fatman's) capable of performing at the level we require in order to tackle large scale content quickly. It's a much more intimate and enjoyable experience for me that way.

 

Plus, there's always ESO on the horizon, which appears to be embracing the WoW theme park mentality...

Edited July 29, 2012 by cshouston

[Mavery]

Hardcore guilds tend to burn out. The content production just isn't fast enough to satisfy them. If you look towards WoW -- where players view as a great raiding experience -- bleeding edge progression groups clear all the heroic content within 3 weeks. So 3 weeks of fun then 6-7 months of waiting for a new tier and then rinse and repeat.

 

WoW is in a better spot than TOR because of the amount of bosses. But if Terror From Beyond releases in September with a 6+ boss tier? There's a step in the right direction.

 

My point is this: hardcore guilds will burn out from every game they play. This is why I embrace a semi-hardcore model (2-3 nights a week, 2-3 hours per night). The content and therefore the game lasts longer. Which I think is the goal.

 

BW has been bad with communication and even I'm feeling the crunch. But unless they pull a LOTRO (1.5 years without new content) I think it'll be ok.

 

As for this? I have no problem with any of you guys, but in the grand scheme of things your sub numbers are too insignificant for BW to even care about.

[cshouston]

This is why I embrace a semi-hardcore model (2-3 nights a week, 2-3 hours per night). The content and therefore the game lasts longer. Which I think is the goal.

 

Unfortunately, that was our model as well. HM EC released on a Thursday (April 12th) and we full cleared by Friday night (April 13th). Combined, we spent less than 8 hours in HM EC, and we only tested the first 2 bosses on the PTS, so Vorgath and Kephess were blind fights. We spent the next 3 1/2 months clearing everything, including NiM KP and SM EC, in 2 nights, TOPS.

 

That wasn't the goal, that was the PROBLEM.

 

Sure, our particular guild quitting isn't going to destroy BioWare, but it's more than just about us.

Edited July 29, 2012 by cshouston

[Mavery]

Unfortunately, that was our model as well. HM EC released on a Thursday (April 12th) and we full cleared by Friday night (April 13th). Combined, we spent less than 8 hours in HM EC, and we only tested the first 2 bosses on the PTS, so Vorgath and Kephess were blind fights. We spent the next 3 1/2 months clearing everything, including NiM KP and SM EC, in 2 nights, TOPS.

 

That wasn't the goal, that was the PROBLEM.

 

Sure, our particular guild quitting isn't going to destroy BioWare, but it's more than just about us.

 

Ah another proponent of the model to me: avoid PTS.

 

It lasts longer when you avoid PTS.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Mavery

[alifaraaz]

Ah another proponent of the model to me: avoid PTS.

 

It lasts longer when you avoid PTS.

 

Well it sort of lasts the same amount of time. If its on PTS for 1 month before going live, then you get to play around in the next raid 1 month before that goes live too.

But I get what you mean in the sense that when it does come out, you kill all the stuff you learned early - and then you gear up your main much quicker

[cshouston]

Ah another proponent of the model to me: avoid PTS.

 

It lasts longer when you avoid PTS.

 

Honestly? If we added the time we spent on the PTS with the first two encounters to our total time spent when the patch went live.... we'd still have finished on Friday night, just later.

 

BioWare never made content for decently skilled players. They made content for casuals, and yet the casuals still cry that it's too hard. Nightmare should have been priority #1 FROM day #1.

[Chaqen]

They really need to embrace the idea of "gear checks" at least on the final boss in a operation to help inflate it life span.

 

To the idea of hardcore raiding guilds... they dont exist anymore... not even in WoW, and the reason for it is because there is no need for them. I was in a hardcore euro raiding guild for the TSO expansion in eq2, and i would spend half of my "raid time" sitting on the spawn point for a contested mob, while playing some browser game, that was with 20 to 35 bosses a week to kill (cant remember the exact number, and dont care to look it up).

 

The MMO genre been expanding for years, and the majority of people that are joining the genre are casual or semi-hardcore...The developers have shifted their focus on such players as well, since true hardcore players fail to represent a single percentage of the population anymore. So those that still consider themselves hardcore, have to learn to change with the times or maybe reactivate their EQ1 account.

[cshouston]

They really need to embrace the idea of "gear checks" at least on the final boss in a operation to help inflate it life span.

 

To the idea of hardcore raiding guilds... they dont exist anymore... not even in WoW, and the reason for it is because there is no need for them. I was in a hardcore euro raiding guild for the TSO expansion in eq2, and i would spend half of my "raid time" sitting on the spawn point for a contested mob, while playing some browser game, that was with 20 to 35 bosses a week to kill (cant remember the exact number, and dont care to look it up).

 

The MMO genre been expanding for years, and the majority of people that are joining the genre are casual or semi-hardcore...The developers have shifted their focus on such players as well, since true hardcore players fail to represent a single percentage of the population anymore. So those that still consider themselves hardcore, have to learn to change with the times or maybe reactivate their EQ1 account.

 

Fair point, well stated. I guess that's what we're going to attempt to some degree with GW2. Still, hardcore debate aside, developers should be trying to introduce content at shorter intervals. It's not just the hardcore they lose if they don't have the content to keep people interested; they lose the semi-hardcore and casuals as well. In fact, I'd hazard to guess that they lose MORE casuals that way than the really hardcore.

[Vegabond]

Sad to see you go ND, see you in GW2

[Vortuus]

To the idea of hardcore raiding guilds... they dont exist anymore...

 

This. Asking if there are any left.. did you really feel "Hard Core" when you cleared EV/KP the first night you tried them? Did you feel "Hard Core" when you cleared EC HM the first week it was released? I hope not.

 

Honestly, around what... 20+ guilds killed Kephess HM in the first week? Just looked up raid ranks, and I don't believe everyone uses it.. and see a LOT of April clears. I imagine a fair number were like my guild and didn't even go to the PTS. So that means double digit guilds PROBABLY cleared the final boss of the tier without any datamining/practice... in the first week. And this was while ALSO getting used to combat logs. Ya. We felt real "Hard Core." Like I am sure many others, we threw together 16 people (without having any extras to chose from for roles/main spec/etc.) the second full week.. and cleared EC HM. Oh boy, "Hard Core."

 

We still laugh a lot when people bill themselves as "progression" guilds in this game. Who intentionally wipes on content? I'd rather just clear it and not be progression. I feel similarly about "Hard Core" guilds. When we see a 7 week 'race' to kill the end boss of a tier, or something similar, perhaps someone can bill themselves as hard core.

 

Unfortunately, by that time most/all of the more capable people will be long gone. Like has been pointed out, without communication (which I have given up hoping for) we have no idea if EC was a 'typical' tier, too hard (as they said about T&Z), too easy (they hinted that on Kephess) or what. We just know that was the first "real" tier.. and it wasn't enough to fill 6 months.

[cshouston]

This. Asking if there are any left.. did you really feel "Hard Core" when you cleared EV/KP the first night you tried them? Did you feel "Hard Core" when you cleared EC HM the first week it was released? I hope not.

 

Of course not. The terminology is just a carry-over from our early days. For instance, I came from the guild 10th in the US to down Kil'Jaeden. I'd say we were pretty hardcore. There is nothing hardcore about this game, you're right. That's probably a big reason why we bled members off consistently from January until now.

 

Aside from the snarky tone I detected in your post (and my apologies if I'm wrong about that), you make good points. They're pretty much why all the guilds that like to be challenged are gone now, or soon to be.

 

SWTOR will just end up another F2P title for casual gamers. It might finally turn some profit for BioWare/EA, but from a gamer's standpoint, it's really sad.

Edited July 29, 2012 by cshouston

[Wugan]

As others have said, the problem lies in the difficulty of the existing content. We raid 2 nights a week for 3 hours each night, and we moved through the existing content really quickly. While we have solid players in our guild, nothing in the current tier really compares to some of the hardest raid bosses that we have encountered in other games. Nothing in the current tier requires hundreds of wipes and weeks of effort to master. That is somewhat to be expected, since "Hard" mode was never supposed to be the highest challenge for focused guilds. However, Nightmare should have been out much sooner and should live up to that standard. A guild that only raids 2 nights a week should be able to go against challenging progression bosses that take weeks to down, but that has just not been the case so far. We'd like to believe it is coming soon, but we just don't know.

 

In terms of avoiding the PTS in order to stretch content out, I understand the desire there. It's something I thought about before we tested EC on the PTS. However, if every guild did that, the community would get buggy and untested Operations going live. The devs have repeatedly stated they watch PTS live streams in order to get feedback, and it's very important to them. The most fun I have had so far in this game is testing Hard mode EC on the PTS, because I really enjoy tackling new challenges as a team and learning how to defeat them. We are really looking forward to doing that again, but it has to come soon in order to have any sizeable base of progression raiders left.

[Kihra]

EC Hard Mode was actually tuned at the correct level of difficulty. By correct, I mean it is about as hard as normal mode boss fights in WoW. That's exactly where I expect the tuning level to be. If Nightmare Mode had been released within a month, everything would be fine.

 

Some people are implying that guilds are "content locusts" for clearing EC HM so fast, but come on. The fights are normal mode WoW difficulty, and there are only 4 of them. The only reason you would struggle for a significant length of time on these fights is if you (a) run into bugs or lag or (b) are just a more casual player who would be struggling on normal mode WoW fights also.

 

They needed NIghtmare Mode to come out within a month of Hard Mode. It should have started testing within a couple of weeks of HM being released. If and when they do release it, Kephess should be hard, requiring 200+ attempts to down for an average hardcore guild.

 

Really the big issue I see is that they don't have that killer end boss that will occupy guilds for a month while the next content is being prepared. If they just had that, then people would have something to chew on.

[pureeffinmetal]

We really needed NIghtmare to be included in 1.3. Unfortunately it wasn't and here we are.

 

My guild definately plans to stay with SWTOR for the time being. None of us want to go back to WoW. GW2? Maybe 5 mans will be fun (I'm very skeptical and don't plan on buying the game anyway) but as we still maintain a 20 or so raid roster I doubt that a move is going to happen.

 

Rift could be an option, but having to catch up in tiers would be annoying. As it stands we're just on an alt making frenzy for the time being.

 

For the time being we still be playing SWTOR. And while we didn't test 1.2, we will definitely be testing in the future. Even with little knowledge of the fights in Denova we were still clearing it within 2 weeks of release and considering ourselves as "hardcore" as you can get in this game.

 

I understand your frustrations and although this thread is a bit dramatic, I ultimately share many of the concerns. Hopefully Bioware will get things moving.

[swilksy]

Guess we'll wait until F2P, then we can probly burn NM EC and terror in a night or two.