Forbes thinks TOR is a financial disaster for EA. Your thoughts

[drfirewater]

Forbes thinks this games is a complete financial disaster. With loss in subs, the threat of Free-2-play on the horizon, are you sticking with game past the six month mark? what are your thoughts?

With current layoffs can TOR developers now produce content at a pace to keep players happy?

(I know they say they can, Because they will never say they can't)

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/07/19/five-reasons-ea-is-in-decline/

 

Note: how this game performs financially has a trickle down effect on EA's overall stock

 

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/332913/ea-shares-drop-after-analyst-expresses-old-republic-concerns/

http://www.videogamer.com/pc/star_wars_the_old_republic/news/ea_stock_drops_3_after_star_wars_the_old_republic_doubts.html

 

Why do people say threat of free to play? I think turbine has proven that free to play isnt a threat its a financial money shot.

Turbine with DDO saw an increase of over 2 million players in first two years after going free to play. They didnt go overboard super greedy with the turbine store. No truely gamebreaking items, no pay to win option, really the only things that people complained about the store was experience potions (making it easier to cap ... and we already have more then that in swtor with legacy) and mana pots (which could be farmed in game easily but people will buy them to avoid farming).

 

I think swtor (and have said so since 2 year prior to beta ) is designed perfectly for the turbine model. Subscribers get everything free ... plus a few EA points each month as a thank you for subbing. All races and planets and raids with the exception of starter and second planets (currently in there free trial lvl 15) EV as the only free raid to get them encouraged to raid. Paid for FPs cept for BT maybe the foundry BP mix too. Everything else is easy .. planets 5-8$ each, races 15$ each for unlocks, character slots 10$ each (should be an option now let alone at free to play) , Server Transfers 10$/character, vanity helmets and chests 2$ each, and a bunch of small boosts that are not game breaking like 2hr 10% exp pots 2$ each.

 

This is the model they should have launched with but they where too cocky to realize that this is the market trend mmos are heading toward.

 

This being said .... the way turbine made this successful was to double the amount of developed content from previous years. Content updates every 2 -3 months special events every 3-4 months, points sales every couple months and weekly item sales.

 

Also Subscription perks are a big part of it ... turbine gave away 500 points per month (if you saved a years sub worth of points you would easily buy half the game and go free to play) special promoton 1000 points for people subbed. and store discounts for sub members. Also having new free to play players (as apposed to currently subbed players who might choose to purchase all the content and stay free to play) being given priority free to play servers where no server transfers are allowed TO that server but where current players may choose to roll alts on.

 

as long as they are not greedy and realize that the game is not going free to play to SAVE THE GAME FROM DEATH but to encourage a larger player base increased revenue to better afford new content at a faster pace.

before they can do any of this they need to learn how to treat employee's and how to keep a team together. They sold this game with lines like "Some of the biggest and best programers and writters from nearly every mmo ever made" then fired all the biggest names they had.

[Ensquire]

Stocks also fell because of less than enthusiastic response to the millions of dollars and capital put into a marketing blitz for battlefield 3 over the last year. EA has seen a large jump in digital sales, but a lot of that is through popcap and their other acquisition's abilities to produce cheap arcade games available through a digital platform.

 

TOR is not the silver bullet reason why EA's stock fell. Is it a big reason? Possibly. But I think it's irresponsible journalism to just pin it on TOR because of what some ranters and pseudo-reviewers say about it on forums.

 

I absolutely agree with you, but what i think to compliment what your saying is that because they invested so much money and had the Starwars/Bioware IP, that perhaps they were arrogant with there expectations of customers and what they could provide to the customers. Had they been real from the get go (they had some experiences about MMO content and DLC's already) they should have had a concrete time table of what they were going to provide to the player base instead of false promises

Edited July 28, 2012 by Ensquire

[Typeslice]

It's about opportunity costs. The money invested in ToR could have been invested elsewhere into a potentially more profitable venture. Hence, it represents a loss of sorts.

 

Only if said other option would have been more profitable. EA will continue to put resources into TOR until it no longer meets their target ROR, whatever that may be.

[Fardarter]

Doubt TOR has anything to do with EA's recent economic development, why? Because all gaming companies have started to feel the heat the last year or more.

 

My personal belief is that the recession has finally hit the industry, so much for recession proof.

 

Explain Diablo 3 first week sales then?

[Sindorin]

I absolutely agree with you, but what i think to compliment what your saying is that because they invested so much money and had the Starwars/Bioware IP, that perhaps they were arrogant with there expectations of customers and what they could provide to the customers. Had they been real from the get go (they had some experiences about MMO content and DLC's already) they should have had a concrete time table of what they were going to provide to the player base instead of false promises

 

I can definitely get behind that. I think a lot of the issue is with the lack of communication on the part of BioWare and I don't think EA can necessarily be held responsible for that. ultimately, it's BioWare's project and as the publisher it's important to point out that most of the decisions on what to release are recommended by BioWare and cleared by EA. So in the end, BioWare needs to step up and let us know what's going on. The speculative nature of the game at this point is hurting the shareholder and only fueling more gloom and doom.

[SNCommand]

Explain Diablo 3 first week sales then?

 

Well games still sell like hotcakes, last time I checked TOR sold 2 million copies its first month, but that wont stop investors from dropping out and selling stocks.

[Ensquire]

Explain Diablo 3 first week sales then?

This thread is supportive to what your saying

here a link to support that PC games sales are actually on the rise for 2010, 2011 & 2012

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/07/09/diablo-3-spearheads-230-jump-in-pc-game-sales/

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/01/pc-is-strong-pc-games-revenue-up-20/

 

That the only reason console sale are down is because this generations console is nearing the end of its life cycle and that this trend in sales has been true to form for the past four generation of consoles, here's Ubisoft president stating as much. I

 

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/07/23/ubisoft-industry-penalised-by-long-console-cycle

Edited July 28, 2012 by Ensquire

[Goretzu]

Why do people say threat of free to play? I think turbine has proven that free to play isnt a threat its a financial money shot.

Turbine with DDO saw an increase of over 2 million players in first two years after going free to play. They didnt go overboard super greedy with the turbine store. No truely gamebreaking items, no pay to win option, really the only things that people complained about the store was experience potions (making it easier to cap ... and we already have more then that in swtor with legacy) and mana pots (which could be farmed in game easily but people will buy them to avoid farming).

 

I think swtor (and have said so since 2 year prior to beta ) is designed perfectly for the turbine model. Subscribers get everything free ... plus a few EA points each month as a thank you for subbing. All races and planets and raids with the exception of starter and second planets (currently in there free trial lvl 15) EV as the only free raid to get them encouraged to raid. Paid for FPs cept for BT maybe the foundry BP mix too. Everything else is easy .. planets 5-8$ each, races 15$ each for unlocks, character slots 10$ each (should be an option now let alone at free to play) , Server Transfers 10$/character, vanity helmets and chests 2$ each, and a bunch of small boosts that are not game breaking like 2hr 10% exp pots 2$ each.

 

This is the model they should have launched with but they where too cocky to realize that this is the market trend mmos are heading toward.

 

This being said .... the way turbine made this successful was to double the amount of developed content from previous years. Content updates every 2 -3 months special events every 3-4 months, points sales every couple months and weekly item sales.

 

Also Subscription perks are a big part of it ... turbine gave away 500 points per month (if you saved a years sub worth of points you would easily buy half the game and go free to play) special promoton 1000 points for people subbed. and store discounts for sub members. Also having new free to play players (as apposed to currently subbed players who might choose to purchase all the content and stay free to play) being given priority free to play servers where no server transfers are allowed TO that server but where current players may choose to roll alts on.

 

as long as they are not greedy and realize that the game is not going free to play to SAVE THE GAME FROM DEATH but to encourage a larger player base increased revenue to better afford new content at a faster pace.

before they can do any of this they need to learn how to treat employee's and how to keep a team together. They sold this game with lines like "Some of the biggest and best programers and writters from nearly every mmo ever made" then fired all the biggest names they had.

 

 

 

DDO was a very different game to the standard subscription model MMORPG, it could have been made for F2P.

 

LOTRO (which was a much more standard model) has however done ok with the F2P model, I'm not sure that means SWTOR would however, it just means it might not be a total disaster for SWTOR.

[Typeslice]

Stop, stop, stop... I am not trolling, I'm honestly asking if the layoff are not a cause for concern? Is the fact Free-2-Play on the horizon not a cause for concern? If this discussion scares you then don't reply.

 

Really its not all happy and go lucky right now, customer service with this game is a joke and I feel (My opionon only) that the devs are out of touch with the players in general, and there's no active leadership that is propelling this game forward

 

And as long as i have an active subscription, I'm free to voice my concern to other gamers

 

Saying that F2P is "on the horizon" is a bit of irresponsible posting. Couple that with the fact that the vast majority of the layoffs were contracted workers and the picture isn't as bad as most would paint it. Is it bad? Sure, but let's keep things in perspective.

[Sindorin]

This thread is supportive to what your saying

here a link to support that PC games sales are actually on the rise for 2010, 2011 & 2012

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/07/09/diablo-3-spearheads-230-jump-in-pc-game-sales/

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/01/pc-is-strong-pc-games-revenue-up-20/

 

That the only reason console sale are down is because this generations console is nearing the end of its life cycle and that this trend in sales has been true to form for the past four generation of consoles

 

That's interesting stuff. A lot of people have been singing the end of PC Gaming, and touting the future of consoles.

[SNCommand]

That the only reason console sale are down is because this generations console is nearing the end of its life cycle and that this trend in sales has been true to form for the past four generation of consoles

This is actually one of the big reasons why game publishing companies are losing value at this point, long term stock pattern show that the first years in each console generation is usually the best there is for the companies, but then when the next generation is announced stocks plummet

[Typeslice]

The title of the thread should also read "An editorial contributor to Forbes thinks TOR is a failure".

[SNCommand]

The title of the thread should also read "An editorial contributor to Forbes thinks TOR is a failure".

 

Not to mention we're talking about Forbes here, their insight into gaming isn't exactly world renowned

[Ensquire]

Saying that F2P is "on the horizon" is a bit of irresponsible posting. Couple that with the fact that the vast majority of the layoffs were contracted workers and the picture isn't as bad as most would paint it. Is it bad? Sure, but let's keep things in perspective.

 

 

Hey, The forbes article states if it goes F2P its a fail, edit: I attribute that because this game was supposed to and hyped a be a wow killer, and gain the subscription numbers close to what blizzard was able to produce

 

so lets put that into perceptive first before you come to me saying I'm a troll. Second, some of the stuff represented in that article is in direct correlation on how we as customers finance this game are reacting.

 

EA has bad PR, The developers with TOR have done a piss poor job with communicating with the community about whats happening and what they can deliver

EA has bad Customer Service, The same thing can be said with TOR, many people who write a ticket get a Copy and paste Response

EA voted worst company in the world, This may be a stretch but the article does state that instead of addressing it they swept it under the rug, and perhaps that arrogance has trickled down to the developers of BW

Edited July 28, 2012 by Ensquire

[Typeslice]

Hey, The forbes article states if it goes F2P its a fail, so lets put that into perceptive first before you come to me saying I'm a troll. Second, some of the stuff represented in that article is in direct correlation on how we as customers finance this game are reacting.

 

EA has bad PR, The developers with TOR have done a piss poor job with communicating with the community about whats happening and what they can deliver

EA has bad Customer Service, The same thing can be said with TOR, many people who write a ticket get a Copy and paste Response

EA voted worst company in the world, This may be a stretch but the article does state that instead of addressing it they swept it under the rug, and perhaps that arrogance has trickled down to the developers of BW

 

Firstly, I called you irresponsible. You don't have to be a troll to be irresponsible. Secondly, your argument doesn't make sense. I said that saying that F2P "IS ON THE HORIZON" was irresponsible, and your response was re: whether or not F2P was a failure.

[Ensquire]

The title of the thread should also read "An editorial contributor to Forbes thinks TOR is a failure".

 

I don't have to because there are four to five articles beyond that one that suggest that EA is in trouble

[Typeslice]

I don't have to because there are four to five articles beyond that one that suggest that EA is in trouble

 

They're really not though. The stock was up 5% yesterday and if you want to get really technical, EA is trading at an EBITDA multiple of ~7.5x; which is in line with Activision. That means that the market does not view EA as an inherently worse company than someone like Activision. Say what you want about EA, but they are pretty much too big to fail; so you get used to them.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Typeslice

[LeonBraun]

Stop, stop, stop... I am not trolling, I'm honestly asking if the layoff are not a cause for concern? Is the fact Free-2-Play on the horizon not a cause for concern? If this discussion scares you then don't reply.

 

Really its not all happy and go lucky right now, customer service with this game is a joke and I feel (My opionon only) that the devs are out of touch with the players in general, and there's no active leadership that is propelling this game forward

 

And as long as i have an active subscription, I'm free to voice my concern to other gamers

 

When the community of a game posts suggestions, concerns, feedback, questions with the intention of improving a game for the better, that is one thing.

 

When a forum poster make a thread with the sole intention of trolling, fear mongering, intending to incite anger, or be a doomsday prophet that is quite another thing entirely.

 

This thread was made for nothing more than to see how many hits and responces it could get and to stir up the community for the purpose of ammusment.

 

This thread is not helpful or constructive in any manner, and its aim does nothing at all to improve the state of the game for the better.

[Shingara]

maybe 6-7 years ago i would have taken articles like this and beleived them, but now not so much. With all the stuff that is going about, been uncovered etc and shown just how little they actually know and how much they are simply guessing i do not put much faith in them.

[SNCommand]

maybe 6-7 years ago i would have taken articles like this and beleived them, but now not so much. With all the stuff that is going about, been uncovered etc and shown just how little they actually know and how much they are simply guessing i do not put much faith in them.

 

I'll go with this guy

[Ensquire]

thread was made for nothing more than to see how many hits and responces it could get and to stir up the community for the purpose of ammusment.

 

This thread is not helpful or constructive in any manner, and its aim does nothing at all to improve the state of the game for the better.

You may be right about it being constructive, however your idea that I'm fear mongering is a joke. These issues are real, whether you like it or not.

Edit: I think that communication between the developers and players is Non-existent. My opinion is that when player wanted End game content, The developer response was "Legacy." (Go play Alts instead of end-game). When players wanted transfers, the developer instead focused on expanding to Asia, I think most of the issues that the article had can be directly correlated to this games direction. Rather then build the core community the developer decided to forget them and expand

 

As long as I'm an active subscriber I'm allowed to voice my opinion of the direction of where this game is headed and right now I don't like it one bit

Edited July 28, 2012 by Ensquire

[metalgearyoda]

Forbes thinks this games is a complete financial disaster. With loss in subs, the threat of Free-2-play on the horizon, are you sticking with game past the six month mark? what are your thoughts?

With current layoffs can TOR developers now produce content at a pace to keep players happy?

(I know they say they can, Because they will never say they can't)

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/07/19/five-reasons-ea-is-in-decline/

 

Note: how this game performs financially has a trickle down effect on EA's overall stock

 

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/332913/ea-shares-drop-after-analyst-expresses-old-republic-concerns/

http://www.videogamer.com/pc/star_wars_the_old_republic/news/ea_stock_drops_3_after_star_wars_the_old_republic_doubts.html

 

Because swtor is such a large part of EAs portfolio.

 

Right?

 

Oh wait.

[irishtim]

The problem for sub based MMOs is that there is still an economic crisis going on, many countries in the west (the target audience for TOR) are still experiencing slow growth and some are even still in recession

 

This of course means that people have less disposable income and are therefore less likely to subscribe to games on a monthly basis while money is still tight.

 

Other games like WoW have been established for years and have expanded into the Asian territories which are now slowing down economically but still growing faster than Europe/NA. This has expanded their market base and made the sub losses that these games have experienced look smaller than TORs

 

I think that a 500 mill cost for the game development (as Forbes estimates) is extremely exaggerated but the only people that really know are EA/BioWare

 

Another thing that is not helping the matter is the bad press that has been following this game but that unfortuately is a part of doing business. Bad press can be the death of almost anything even if it is good and it is up to EA to help spin the press around if they really want this game to succeed more but to do that they need to be more open and honest about their games and say exactly where they are hoping to go with them

 

At the moment TOR going F2P is nothing more than a rumor and the only things theat BioWare have said on the subject is that they are looking into the model (note 'looking' not 'actively persuing') which in this economic climate it would be stupid for them not to look into their other options

 

I still enjoy the game and i will stay subbed as long as it remains interesting and as long as they keep releasing new patches but it seems that i am one of the lucky ones wo has that bit of disposable income to spend on MMOs. I prefer the subscription system to that of F2P but if is is not feasable for the company to continue the model that is up to them to decide.

[SithVeritas]

When the community of a game posts suggestions, concerns, feedback, questions with the intention of improving a game for the better, that is one thing.

 

When a forum poster make a thread with the sole intention of trolling, fear mongering, intending to incite anger, or be a doomsday prophet that is quite another thing entirely.

 

This thread was made for nothing more than to see how many hits and responces it could get and to stir up the community for the purpose of ammusment.

 

This thread is not helpful or constructive in any manner, and its aim does nothing at all to improve the state of the game for the better.

 

Can't blame people to post every rotten article they find when BioWare/EA stay silent.

 

If this all I'm getting, I'll take it.

[joeypesci]

Forbes thinks this games is a complete financial disaster. With loss in subs, the threat of Free-2-play on the horizon, are you sticking with game past the six month mark? what are your thoughts?

With current layoffs can TOR developers now produce content at a pace to keep players happy?

(I know they say they can, Because they will never say they can't)

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/07/19/five-reasons-ea-is-in-decline/

 

Note: how this game performs financially has a trickle down effect on EA's overall stock

 

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/332913/ea-shares-drop-after-analyst-expresses-old-republic-concerns/

http://www.videogamer.com/pc/star_wars_the_old_republic/news/ea_stock_drops_3_after_star_wars_the_old_republic_doubts.html

 

A financial magazine claiming the investors don't understand gaming, yet the financial magazine doesn't either. If they've made their money back from all the sales, then it's not a financial disaster. If they are only making a small profit from it, that's just a bad PA problem.

 

Simple turn around is to concentrate real hard on creating a good capture the flag style World v World style PvP. That you can also level in. That would keep people subbing and more people coming back. Listening to the community more, communicating more and making the live servers always on so a proper community can exist on it.