Expertise is a problem.

[Hizoka]

You guys are ignoring the fact that someone in full WH has played a HUGE amount of wz's......meaning they have improved their skills a lot. They are experienced PVPers.

 

.

 

dude i have seen countless "War Heros" that had no clue you could pass the huttball, and people who don't know you can disarm bombs in voidstar.

 

PLaying alot does not mean they are good, it simply means they play a lot

[ArchangelLBC]

Sorry for the double post- but this quote I totally agree with, I believe bm and recruit gear should have equal expertise! Only that recruit gear stat itemization should be terrible- I.e. No power, no crit, no surge, more endurance more accuracy

 

Honestly this is the opposite of what I think should happen. Keep expertise the same and make it purple with columi level (56) mods and no set bonus.

 

dude i have seen countless "War Heros" that had no clue you could pass the huttball, and people who don't know you can disarm bombs in voidstar.

 

PLaying alot does not mean they are good, it simply means they play a lot

 

If nothing else, we can certainly agree on this.

[hyuplee]

Just feel like throwing this out there but i can literally 1 shot (well 2 including gore) someone in full recruit with ease if they are dumb enough to let me complete a ravage. (Carnage spec mara)

 

The difference between wh gear and recruit gear isn't much - with a standard-modded warhero set i do about 11k ravage overall. Now, with a fully "twinked" war hero set (powerstack, vindi set bonus), my ravage does 15k with ease. (again this is assuming they let me hit them without using any of their CD + CC)

 

In further damage testing, A PT guildie of mine is able to do a 6k rail shot against a full recruit, while in standard mode he does about 4k. ( same deal, no CD pop no nothing)

 

 

Nerf Ravage/ Railshot ? No.

The realistic answer is: CC/KB/ Pop CD.

 

The optimistic answer?

 

Buff the raw stat on recruit gear and give them a set bonus with HP bonus.

No solution would've been better.

 

PS. Here's some interesting fact: against someone in full recruit, assuming they let me hit them freely without using CD or CC, using a rakata attack adrenal my highest ravage is currently 17,4k. (By the end of second tick said test subject is at 2.2k hp. He has roughly around 13k Hp. The last tick critted and ticked for 7.1k)

Edited August 2, 2012 by hyuplee

[PloGreen]

dude i have seen countless "War Heros" that had no clue you could pass the huttball, and people who don't know you can disarm bombs in voidstar.

 

PLaying alot does not mean they are good, it simply means they play a lot

 

Oh I see someone who does not play much is better than someone who does...

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are delusional.

[hyuplee]

Oh I see someone who does not play much is better than someone who does...

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are delusional.

 

Actually he's not.

 

One of the worst jug i have ever seen is a conqueror in full warhero and he can't even kill someone's companion on ilum (which i killed in 3 hit). It is you who has severely overestimated human being's ability to recognize their own failure (said jug think he's the best) and learn from their own mistakes.

Edited August 2, 2012 by hyuplee

[PloGreen]

Actually he's not.

 

One of the worst jug i have ever seen is a conqueror in full warhero and he can't even kill someone's companion on ilum (which i killed in 3 hit). It is you who has severely overestimated human being's ability to recognize their own failure (said jug think he's the best) and learn from their own mistakes.

 

Right... And how many noobs do u think I kill with absolutely no idea how to pvp every day? Let me tell you in average people that are warlords in full augmented war hero gear are far more likely to know what they ate doing than some qqing cry baby that can't handle grinding out bm.

 

Sure the odd person might not learn from their mistakes but are you seriously telling me someone who had played for 8 months won't be better than someone who had played one? Because that is quite frankly bs.

[hyuplee]

Right... And how many noobs do u think I kill with absolutely no idea how to pvp every day? Let me tell you in average people that are warlords in full augmented war hero gear are far more likely to know what they ate doing than some qqing cry baby that can't handle grinding out bm.

 

Sure the odd person might not learn from their mistakes but are you seriously telling me someone who had played for 8 months won't be better than someone who had played one? Because that is quite frankly bs.

 

If we are arguing about the odds of that happening, then i agree with you. warlords tend to know what they're doing. But every once in a while there will be someone who doesn't know how to l2p, and the person u are quoting is most likely referring to those people.

 

in the case of the jug i was referring to, honestly I have seen better players fresh from 50s than him, and he's currently valor 84.

Edited August 2, 2012 by hyuplee

[Alec_Fortescue]

Getting rid of expertise and allowing players to play PvE and PvP in the gear they gain through either would open more opportunities for players. More content would be open to them and hard PvP players would be able to have fun in the ops and vice versa. Doing same Ops over and over to get the pair of pants ain't fun. Then if i want to play PvP and I want a pair of pants for PvP I need to spend hours in Warzones. For a pair of pants.

 

Going ops and be efficient in the gear you got through PvP is a mint idea. No more awful grind and timesink... Guild Wars had no expertise and you could do PvP and the gear you've got thorugh PvE. And PvP was excellent in that game. You defend expertise and all the stuff made standard by WoW... But we don't want another WoW, we want The Old Republic which is fun, enjoyable and it doesn't take ages to mean something in TORs world. You wonder why people cancel subscriptions and this game has to go F2P now... This game is a COPY of other games people played for years now. End-game is a lot about grind and skill over gear rule is enforced. Players were promised a game that will make them feel unique and totally heroic in it's world. Having to grind through four same warzones for months doesn't make you feel heroic.

[hyuplee]

Getting rid of expertise and allowing players to play PvE and PvP in the gear they gain through either would open more opportunities for players. More content would be open to them and hard PvP players would be able to have fun in the ops and vice versa. Doing same Ops over and over to get the pair of pants ain't fun. Then if i want to play PvP and I want a pair of pants for PvP I need to spend hours in Warzones. For a pair of pants.

 

Going ops and be efficient in the gear you got through PvP is a mint idea. No more awful grind and timesink... Guild Wars had no expertise and you could do PvP and the gear you've got thorugh PvE. And PvP was excellent in that game. You defend expertise and all the stuff made standard by WoW... But we don't want another WoW, we want The Old Republic which is fun, enjoyable and it doesn't take ages to mean something in TORs world. You wonder why people cancel subscriptions and this game has to go F2P now... This game is a COPY of other games people played for years now. End-game is a lot about grind and skill over gear rule is enforced. Players were promised a game that will make them feel unique and totally heroic in it's world. Having to grind through four same warzones for months doesn't make you feel heroic.

 

no it actually wouldn't.

What about the people who don't like to PVE?

Besides, If Expertise is removed marauders like me will be running with 2200 str and 1800 endurance.

 

Trust me you do NOT want that.

Edited August 2, 2012 by hyuplee

[MoofKnight]

Just feel like throwing this out there but i can literally 1 shot (well 2 including gore) someone in full recruit with ease if they are dumb enough to let me complete a ravage. (Carnage spec mara)

 

The difference between wh gear and recruit gear isn't much - with a standard-modded warhero set i do about 11k ravage overall. Now, with a fully "twinked" war hero set (powerstack, vindi set bonus), my ravage does 15k with ease. (again this is assuming they let me hit them without using any of their CD + CC)

 

In further damage testing, A PT guildie of mine is able to do a 6k rail shot against a full recruit, while in standard mode he does about 4k. ( same deal, no CD pop no nothing)

 

 

Nerf Ravage/ Railshot ? No.

The realistic answer is: CC/KB/ Pop CD.

 

The optimistic answer?

 

Buff the raw stat on recruit gear and give them a set bonus with HP bonus.

No solution would've been better.

 

PS. Here's some interesting fact: against someone in full recruit, assuming they let me hit them freely without using CD or CC, using a rakata attack adrenal my highest ravage is currently 17,4k. (By the end of second tick said test subject is at 2.2k hp. He has roughly around 13k Hp. The last tick critted and ticked for 7.1k)

 

And that, sir, is why people don't buy recruit gear and sell the token instead.

 

OP much?

[hyuplee]

And that, sir, is why people don't buy recruit gear and sell the token instead.

 

OP much?

 

LOL by all means, don't wear recruit gear.

 

I hit that much on someone with 900 expertise; imagine what i'd do with 22 % more damage.

 

Also, keep in mind that my ravage ONLY does that much when a player is basically standing around doing nothing

If you pop defensive CD, my dmg will goes down to around 6k max and sometimes even less than 3 k overall. (1k per tick) This is because ravage is weapon damage therefore it is incredibly easy to parry/dodge.

 

And whose fault is it if you are standing around doing nothing and lemme hit you with ravage?

Is it my class? or is it you ?

Edited August 2, 2012 by hyuplee

[Lacedemon]

no it actually wouldn't.

What about the people who don't like to PVE?

Besides, If Expertise is removed marauders like me will be running with 2200 str and 1800 endurance.

 

Trust me you do NOT want that.

 

Heh its not just Maras Imagine 26k HP sins, Sorcs and Rage Juggs with 1100 Force Bonus dmg

[hyuplee]

Heh its not just Maras Imagine 26k HP sins, Sorcs and Rage Juggs with 1100 Force Bonus dmg

 

exactly.

 

but please stop ok? i dont want to imagine a 26k sin i'll have nightmares. :/

[Scritchy]

You guys are ignoring the fact that someone in full WH has played a HUGE amount of wz's......meaning they have improved their skills a lot. They are experienced PVPers.

You are ignoring the fact that a lot of fresh 50s are actually alts of those same War Heros. This game isn't getting a lot of new faces in the 50s, just a bunch of alts.

[PloGreen]

If we are arguing about the odds of that happening, then i agree with you. warlords tend to know what they're doing. But every once in a while there will be someone who doesn't know how to l2p, and the person u are quoting is most likely referring to those people.

 

in the case of the jug i was referring to, honestly I have seen better players fresh from 50s than him, and he's currently valor 84.

 

Fair enough, sorry for being a bit ott.

[DarthOvertone]

Really? Do you remember 1.2? I sure do. Those changes were pretty massive. Heal specced Commandos and Sages took massive nerfs to resource management, Commandos also took a major nerf to throughput (Supercharge Cells alone got hit with 3 nerfs in one ability). The nerf to grav round and the subsequent "fix" to Demo Round completely killed the DPS of a class that should have already been easy to shut down. This is game where "minor tweeks" can make a huge difference, and in any game a bunch of minor changes adds up to a whole lot of change. Healer throughput dropping meant that burst damage became even more important while sustained damage became much less important.

 

Yes really. Which class changes were massive exactly? The change to Mercs/Commandos that primarily impacted their DPS AC? That change was massive? Hardly. DPS Mercs/Commandos do need some love, but it didn't change the game in a major way.

 

And you are wrong about the Healing. In fact, peeps have done the math to show Healing is actually slightly better post 1.2 (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=398181). Healing itself is fine. Resource management is not the issue for Healers in WZs, although it may come into play during PvE raiding. The main issue Healers struggle with is survivability, and that is a direct result of the 1.2 Expertise change and the reduced TTK that followed.

 

By the way, where are the huge class and AC changes in 1.2 and 1.3 that threw Maras/Sents and Pyros/Vans completely out of balance with the other classes, essentially making them the DPS gods that everyone maligns so much now? I'll tell you where. They don't exist.

 

"Minor Tweaks" can make a huge difference to advanced classes. Sure. This I will not deny. But minor tweaks of the sort you point out do not impact combat in a way that changes TTK and DPS burst overnight for all classes across the board. Only a global stat like Expertise can have that sort of impact.

[Dasgruberg]

Just to clarify some of your points, if I may. Expertise has very little to do with why PVP is in its current state. Allowing ANY gear into PVP is the real source of angst, and class balance is a close second. On the pecking order, its a distant third, and almost fourth since the grind is on the heels or ahead on some scorecards.

 

 

IMO, the simplest solution is to strip all stats to zero (so base attack rating is the only thing you bring to the table) and set/give EXP @ entry level to make TTK a certain level (say 50%/30%/20%) with incremental increases the more you play. Each class/spec would get its own "custom EXP" portions to try to keep everyone in line (within 5%). Any thoughts?

 

too complicated, too much work for them and would take too long. EZ solution : Get rid of that sick scaling in expertise. instead of 20% dmg 16% dmg reduced and 13% healing or whatever make it 7% dmg 7% dmg reduced and 7% healing increased. done deal

[ArchangelLBC]

Yes really. Which class changes were massive exactly? The change to Mercs/Commandos that primarily impacted their DPS AC? That change was massive? Hardly. DPS Mercs/Commandos do need some love, but it didn't change the game in a major way.

 

And you are wrong about the Healing. In fact, peeps have done the math to show Healing is actually slightly better post 1.2 (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=398181). Healing itself is fine. Resource management is not the issue for Healers in WZs, although it may come into play during PvE raiding. The main issue Healers struggle with is survivability, and that is a direct result of the 1.2 Expertise change and the reduced TTK that followed.

 

By the way, where are the huge class and AC changes in 1.2 and 1.3 that threw Maras/Sents and Pyros/Vans completely out of balance with the other classes, essentially making them the DPS gods that everyone maligns so much now? I'll tell you where. They don't exist.

 

"Minor Tweaks" can make a huge difference to advanced classes. Sure. This I will not deny. But minor tweaks of the sort you point out do not impact combat in a way that changes TTK and DPS burst overnight for all classes across the board. Only a global stat like Expertise can have that sort of impact.

 

When you nerf the perceived OP classes others become stronger by comparison, and I would argue that Sent/Mara damage and Vanguard/PT damage simply scale well with increased stats period. So the change in 1.3 where suddenly we could augment everything? Yeah that was pretty huge. The addition of War Hero gear which when properly itemized provides much better stat balancing? Pretty huge. Many long time players of both classes will tell you the classes always did good damage. People just actually started noticing, especially after to nerfs to DPS sages, and those morons who spammed Tracer Missile/Grav Round who I will forever hate for gutting my class because they thought it was funny to just use one button in their rotation.

 

Also you can't say that "the classes are pretty balanced, it's expertise that makes the difference" when class imbalance is perceived between players who have the same amount of expertise.

 

The thread you linked talks about healing (and damage and damage reduction) scaling with expertise and does NOT address the nerfs and fixes (Sage double dipping) that healers suffered in 1.2.

 

In an environment where burst damage is favored, burst healing is equally favored. Commandos had an incredible oh crap single target burst healing capability pre 1.2 a lot of which revolved around supercharged cells. The changes to that ability alone made a Commando healers ability to combat burst damage take a huge hit. It was the overall nerf to healing throughput in the game in it's entire that so drastically changed TTK (Your comments about Commando DPS show your sheer ignorance of how the gunnery tree works and dignify no response further other than please do your research before making such claims).

 

You can't honestly be so obtuse as to think all the problems in PVP can really be tracked back to simple expertise changes.

Edited August 3, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Astarica]

The expertise changes hurt healing because healing is always favored in a low DPS matchup. Generally speaking it is impossible for DPS to defeat healing for prolonged period of time, so if tomorrow all DPS and healing is reduced by 50% we'd expect healers to be better off. With the expertise change, we went from defense slightly more powerful than offense (old system would be say 20% +damage 20% mitigation which results in 96% damage done instead of 100%), and healing numbers slightly nerfed as a %, so healing is weaker overall.

 

Or, think about it in reverse, if your DPS doubled and so did healing, you'd have a way easier time dealing with healers since you can often kill them before they finish casting a healing spell, even though that single heal could heal for 10K or more now, but it doesn't matter because they won't finish casting it before they died. Even if there is no specific nerf to healing (and there is), decreasing TTK hurts healing in general.

[Sinemetu]

Did anyone else notice that in this hypothetical situation where the operative outgears the PT and manages to get all his openers off, and has full health to the PT's 40-50%, he still needs someone else to come along and finish the job? I got a kick out of that.

[Sinemetu]

By the way, where are the huge class and AC changes in 1.2 and 1.3 that threw Maras/Sents and Pyros/Vans completely out of balance with the other classes, essentially making them the DPS gods that everyone maligns so much now? I'll tell you where. They don't exist.

 

"Minor Tweaks" can make a huge difference to advanced classes. Sure. This I will not deny. But minor tweaks of the sort you point out do not impact combat in a way that changes TTK and DPS burst overnight for all classes across the board. Only a global stat like Expertise can have that sort of impact.

 

Marauders and PT pyro have been great for ages. People just didn't notice until hybrid sorcs and grav round got nerfed.