Expertise is a problem.

[Hizoka]

Actually, it would be dramatically different.

 

still i find it funny that no-one disagree with the fact that the people who cling to their expertise are the underskilled players who need the crutch to compete. Also if you actually watch a warzone the "geared" people always hunt down the ones that aren't and then brag about how ****** they are.

 

Just go on to whatever server you are on and ask someone to duel you they can wear what ever gear they want and tell them that you will wear PvE gear and beat them and they will do everything not to fight because they know they lack the skill to beat anyone 1v1 regardless of their gear if they are challenged.

[Rmog]

Today, there are many people who want Expertise removed from the game. Right now in SW:TOR's PvP it's not based on the player's skill or technique, no it's based on some stupid system WoW thought was an excellent idea. A real life situation is an Operative and a Tank Powertech engage in combat. The Tank Powertech has 1095 expertise, the operative has 1290. The operative vanishes uses his only 5 attacks that do damage and brings the Powertech's health to 40 or 30%. Then a teammate walks in to finish the job. and it's GG! The Powertech had no chance, not to mention the fact that Expertise can dominate the whole team in a warzone. It's not even player versus player, no it's expertise versus expertise. SWTOR just copied another one of WoW's ideas. GJ Bioware!

 

 

It's to easy to get BM gear, L2P.

[Daiyukie]

Just go on to whatever server you are on and ask someone to duel you they can wear what ever gear they want and tell them that you will wear PvE gear and beat them and they will do everything not to fight because they know they lack the skill to beat anyone 1v1 regardless of their gear if they are challenged.

 

... What? You're saying that people I challenge will run scared because I say I will wear PvE gear and beat them? Lmao, that's a nice fantasy. Whatever makes you think you have skill I guess..

[Derian]

Expertise isn't the problem, it's the people that REALLY have a lot of time on their hands to mix and match their mods. Whether or not this is a problem is subjective. However just pure expertise is easy to get.

[RaggedyTragedy]

Expertise is ridiculous, IMO.

 

MMOs don't really require psychomotor skills like FPS games do. Learn keybinds--that's it. It's not really a game based on how well you mash buttons, it's a game based on making sure you have the best gear going into any engagement, knowing what assets and abilities you have, and capitalizing on them while trying to force your opponent off-balance. Expertise takes everything meaningful out of the game. It means that the guy who's played a thousand warzones will consistently beat the guy who's only played a hundred. Aside from a few basic strategies, there's no advanced meta game in PvP besides growing your expertise, and that's not fun, it's work. Everybody should enjoy every match and not feel like they have to camp at a node to collect defender points or join a guild just to get some MVP votes so that some day a few months from now they can win the occasional battle.

 

Expertise, if in the game at all, should be a minor buff, not a deus ex machina for the elite few that play this game (and no others) all day, every day, and have few if any alts to level. This is a story-based game, so I have a lot of alts. I do PvP casually, that is to say, whenever I forget how irritating PvP is without dedication one's life to its pursuit.

[RaggedyTragedy]

I... what? Are you saying Halo is gear-based? o.0 'Cause if the people who believe gear = skill are playing Halo and yelling at their TV, why are they playing Halo - a game where only your skill and coordination matter?

 

Exactly. Halo is what every COMPETITIVE PvP or multiplayer experience should be. If you want the result to reflect who is most skilled, start everybody in the same armor, with the same starting weapons. The only thing that matters is what you do in THAT match, not the thousands you played prior. If anybody thinks that this game's PvP is anything at all like that, go buy a full set of recruit gear, (it's dirt cheap) go into a warzone, and see what happens. Your "skill" will be nonexistent.

 

If you want the game to be about collecting feathers for your cap that make you invincible, restrict that to the PvE arena where it's only an NPC that has a horrible time because he's not fully geared and has no choice but to continue having no fun until he finally gets a full set of War Hero gear.

[Derian]

Exactly. Halo is what every COMPETITIVE PvP or multiplayer experience should be. If you want the result to reflect who is most skilled, start everybody in the same armor, with the same starting weapons. The only thing that matters is what you do in THAT match, not the thousands you played prior. If anybody thinks that this game's PvP is anything at all like that, go buy a full set of recruit gear, (it's dirt cheap) go into a warzone, and see what happens. Your "skill" will be nonexistent.

 

If you want the game to be about collecting feathers for your cap that make you invincible, restrict that to the PvE arena where it's only an NPC that has a horrible time because he's not fully geared and has no choice but to continue having no fun until he finally gets a full set of War Hero gear.

 

Halo is for newbs, what a crappy example. Even casually getting decent expertise isn't a big deal, nor does it require massive amounts of time. If it wasn't expertise it'd be some other set of gear that takes time to get. You realize that right?

Edited July 31, 2012 by Derian

[hyuplee]

still i find it funny that no-one disagree with the fact that the people who cling to their expertise are the underskilled players who need the crutch to compete. Also if you actually watch a warzone the "geared" people always hunt down the ones that aren't and then brag about how ****** they are.

 

Just go on to whatever server you are on and ask someone to duel you they can wear what ever gear they want and tell them that you will wear PvE gear and beat them and they will do everything not to fight because they know they lack the skill to beat anyone 1v1 regardless of their gear if they are challenged.

 

Firstly, I disagree.

If you are dumb enough not to wear recruit gear/BM gear when pvping someone, you're not even in the mindset of a pvper. If you don't have the mindset to pvp, that's obviously one crucial skill you're missing. The people who cling onto expertise are the people who took their time to learn the system, therefore they are already better skilled than you because they know too well not to let some misguided sense of entitlement to hinder their ability to pvp. (unless you actually beat them in full pve gear, which does happen but very rarely. Then you can talk about skills and what not.)

 

if you got a problem expertise, suck it up, get geared and then stomp these people. These people, who have actually endured the same thing when they first started out. Did you think they were handed a set of warhero gears on day 1 and told to destroy newbs by BW? No. They climbed the ladder to the top of the building, so they can start throwing jellos at the people below them. They have more than earned the right to abuse their hard earned gear.

If you have trouble climbing the ladder, then don't pvp. Clearly this is not for you.

 

Post like these are the reason why the game is going down the drain atm.

 

First, casual players complain about gear being too hard to get, so bioware made it easy to cater these people. The hardcore player, having obtained all the gears since the content was made easy, eventually quit the game, and the casual players who were complaining about gearing in the first place ended up quitting too because they have no one to compete against.

 

Stop expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. Real life doesn't work that way, game sure as hell don't.

Edited July 31, 2012 by hyuplee

[ArchangelLBC]

Actually, it would be dramatically different.

 

 

Yes but you saying it doesn't make it so, and you have to adequately explain HOW it would be dramatically different from what we have now. You talk about different set bonuses/ACs/Skills/Stats being emphasized in PVP than PVE and from my viewpoint thats exactly what we have right now. Different set bonuses/ACs/Skills/Stats ARE emphasized in PVP over PVE.

 

 

What you have failed to do is detail a system which would be any different than the system we currently have. Focusing specifically on gear, as long as some stat is emphasized in PVP over PVE that can only really be gotten through PVP then fresh PVPers will still get rolled because they won't have the gear and the people who they're playing often will (i.e. exactly what we have now). If you want to put pvp gear in non PVP content then people will complain that they have to go do PVE to grind PVP gear (barrier to entry), and depending on implementation PVE players will say, rightly, that you should keep your PVP out of our PVE.

 

Basically unless you can clearly outline this magical system you're talking about, everything you've said just sounds like the same system we have now under a different coat of paint. That's not different. Make yourself clear please. There really isn't such a thing as proof by blatant assertion.

 

still i find it funny that no-one disagree with the fact that the people who cling to their expertise are the underskilled players who need the crutch to compete. Also if you actually watch a warzone the "geared" people always hunt down the ones that aren't and then brag about how ****** they are.

 

It's an MMORPG. Gear kind of comes with the territory and as long as it does, and as long as the system allows for players with gear to be pitted against players without gear, this is going to be an issue. Players want incentive. With only 4 maps they NEED incentive if BW wants them to keep doing the same content for months on end. Gear is that incentive and since it's PVP it makes sense that that gear be focused towards making players better at PVP. I'll be the first to own up to being underskilled. I'm not a good PVP player. I'm also wearing pretty much full BM outside of the weapon and relics which are war hero which I mostly grinded because the relics are BiS for PVE, and the barrel from the WH weapon is the second BiS for my class in PVE in my rarely humble opinion.

 

PVP specific gear, however it's implemented serves the double function of keeping the PVE and PVP sides of the game segregated (a policy which I wish they'd apply more often to actual class balance. Nothing sucks like having your class nerfed in PVE because of PVP QQing). It also keeps us darn PVEers from coming in with top tier gear and using that gear as a crutch to roll over good PVPers from a pure gear perspective.

 

But yes, you just flat out aren't going to be competitive in top tier PVP without top tier PVP gear. After that the team with the best coordination and strategy will win.

 

I'll admit to being underskilled, I've said it before but I suck out loud at PVP.

 

That doesn't make the need for two sets of gear to keep the two sides of the game segregated any less real. Note that I'm not saying that the two sides absolutely should be segregated, or that that goal can't be realized through some other method. I believe those both to be true but I'm willing to entertain arguments, but those arguments have to be made. "Expertise is a crutch for scrubs" isn't an argument.

Edited July 31, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Hambunctious]

The vast majority of you did not have the privilege of playing in closed beta when there was no expertise, and WZs were open to level 1-50.

 

While a level 1 could not compete with a 50, a level 20+ could do very well. Of course, the stats were not so dumbed down then, and there was much less stat inflation. I, personally, loved killing a certain loud mouthed 50 sorc with a level 30 guardian in the rare 1v1 opportunities.

 

Everything got broken with the addition of expertise, and then combined with skills relying on a single main stat instead of being split between 2 per class...as it should have remained.

 

Bolster worked great once with 50 in WZs, but they broke it.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Hambunctious

[XyriusSES]

How dare you improve your character and its stats. HOW DARE YOU

[Derian]

There was expertise in closed beta.

[Werdan]

The vast majority of you did not have the privilege of playing in closed beta when there was no expertise, and WZs were open to level 1-50.

 

While a level 1 could not compete with a 50, a level 20+ could do very well. Of course, the stats were not so dumbed down then, and there was much less stat inflation. I, personally, loved killing a certain loud mouthed 50 sorc with a level 30 guardian in the rare 1v1 opportunities.

 

Everything got broken with the addition of expertise, and then combined with skills relying on a single main stat instead of being split between 2 per class...as it should have remained.

 

Bolster worked great once with 50 in WZs, but they broke it.

 

I remember those days and sorry a level 20 could still not compete with a level 50. I would have 3 lowbies on me in a WZ (as a merc of all things) and coming out with 3 easy solo kills. I will agree about them changing to a single stat for most everything made things way too easy for players to min max their gear. Expertise in and of itself isn't much of a problem as the difference between Recruit, BM, and WH isn't that large. The problem is in main stat and endurance. The difference can be staggering. As if having 5-6k more health wasn't enough, the 500+ extra main stat is overkill over Recruit gear. Tertiary stats like power, crit, surge, etc are just as bad.

 

IMO, there are a number ways to adjust this for both current and future players.

 

1-Give recruit gear a huge Expertise boost while leaving the stat differences alone. By huge I mean ~35% damage boost in full recruit with damage reduction and healing getting boosts as well.

 

2-Make commendations tradable again. This was one of the single best features I miss from beta. This could also be a source of income for players who don't wish to do PvE dailys for credits as they could just as easily sell comms.

 

3-Remove the level requirements to buy end game PvP gear. This was another feature I loved from beta. Being able to have some level 50 gear before you finished your grind was a huge plus. Removing the level requirement for rated comms would be a plus as well.

 

4-In addition to or in lieu of the above, remove or massively increase the commendation caps. This would allow low level players to save up for a better set of gear as soon as they hit 50. There are players that do a ton of PvP at low levels only to waste thier comms on useless gear because of the caps. Both this and the previous idea would give a nice incentive for players to start PvPing as soon as they hit level 10.

 

The way it is now, it almost seems as if players are punished for hitting level 50. If you don't have alts and use the inheritance items to move mods around, you're pretty much screwed as a fresh 50.

[PloGreen]

Yes lets change the entire pvp system because you cannot be arsed to farm a set of bm, pikc up the free recruit etc.

 

The only problem with expertise is if you havent got much of it. It actually does it's job, it stop pve rambos from thinking they can pwn people that pvp all the time and pvp is crap for doing pve with.

 

If you cannot see why it's in the game I don't know what to say. It's a stat specifically designed to improve your char in pvp and that's what it does. Only people that seem to have a problem with it are:-

 

People that seem to forget this game is an mmo where gear is what makes you char stronger/more efficient - er did u not notice the fact you were gearing your char from 1-50 constantly improving their damage output etc?

 

Noobs, they do not have expertise and they spent the 320k instead of taking the free recruit gear.

 

Lazy people - people who for whatever reason would rather spend their time qqing on the forums and trying to change the whole system because they are either terrible, or lazy.

 

Casuals - People that have kids/work alot/dont take gaming seriously/or just dont have time - in which case you should just accept that you are playing a time-sink mmo and you will never catch-up.

 

This is the game, sections of this community (as much as it is your right to complain) need to learn to play the game within the rules set by the game. All this "its not fair" crap is just tiresome, it is fair. Everyone had the chance to purchase the game at the same time and level their chars. When and how you use your time is entirely on you - not biowares fault, not the people you are envious of who are better geared (and better skilled) than you.

 

All of these issues that spring up on these boards - expertise, resolve, stuns, rateds too hard - are an indication you are inexperienced if you are qqing about them. They can all be solved simply by taking some time to learn the mechanics and gear your char - just like everyone else in the game that have what you think you should have with a minimnum of effort/click of fingers.

 

Stop the qq and gear your toon because I guarantee you while you are qqing - little johnny is gearing up his toon and learning the game.

Edited July 31, 2012 by PloGreen

[Oktaine]

If they take out expertise then raid gear becomes the new best pvp gear. If they ever make it so that you have to raid to get gear I unsub on the spot.

 

Look at it this way, I dont go into your raid with my bm/wh and expect to do well. Do not come to my wz with your rakata and expect to do well.

[Kaonis]

Expertise I agree needs to go, or the difference needs to be reduced. Last night me and a friend swore off PVP, why? Because our team with recruit/battlemaster nearly got wiped out entirely by 4 guys in full war hero. Everyone was sitting around 30% health or less, and they still had half a team up and able to kill us. Or how about the time a solo war hero juggernaut soloed 3 players? It's not a learn to play issue, if your barely denting them because of all their expertise, and they just faceroll you because of a big damage bonus, then something is not right with the system.

[Amien]

I don't think removing expertise is the solution. They should just normalize it across all gear sets, or lessen the gap between sets. Such as, Recruit give 1000, BM gives 1100 and WH would give 1200 expertise.

[L-RANDLE]

Expertise I agree needs to go, or the difference needs to be reduced. Last night me and a friend swore off PVP, why? Because our team with recruit/battlemaster nearly got wiped out entirely by 4 guys in full war hero. Everyone was sitting around 30% health or less, and they still had half a team up and able to kill us. Or how about the time a solo war hero juggernaut soloed 3 players? It's not a learn to play issue, if your barely denting them because of all their expertise, and they just faceroll you because of a big damage bonus, then something is not right with the system.

 

Your "example" is misguided since the difference in EXP between recruit and WH is like 4%. Sorry, expertise is not why you are getting rolled, your main stats are lacking, i.e. your undergeared. That has nothing to do with expertise. A much better suggestion is that gear not be allowed in WZ since it really boils down to that.

 

 

pst: A well geared, and skilled Jugg/Guard should be able to pimp slap three undergeared players.

[DarthOvertone]

Focusing specifically on gear, as long as some stat is emphasized in PVP over PVE that can only really be gotten through PVP then fresh PVPers will still get rolled because they won't have the gear and the people who they're playing often will (i.e. exactly what we have now).

 

I don't think the peeps would get rolled like they do now simply because the Expertise gulf wouldn't exist. Right now there are two degrees of separation, Expertise and Stats. It's true that peeps would still need to farm for optimal stats for their build, but the transition would be more tolerable.

[Hizoka]

Firstly, I disagree.

If you are dumb enough not to wear recruit gear/BM gear when pvping someone, you're not even in the mindset of a pvper. If you don't have the mindset to pvp, that's obviously one crucial skill you're missing. The people who cling onto expertise are the people who took their time to learn the system, therefore they are already better skilled than you because they know too well not to let some misguided sense of entitlement to hinder their ability to pvp. (unless you actually beat them in full pve gear, which does happen but very rarely. Then you can talk about skills and what not.)

 

if you got a problem expertise, suck it up, get geared and then stomp these people. These people, who have actually endured the same thing when they first started out. Did you think they were handed a set of warhero gears on day 1 and told to destroy newbs by BW? No. They climbed the ladder to the top of the building, so they can start throwing jellos at the people below them. They have more than earned the right to abuse their hard earned gear.

If you have trouble climbing the ladder, then don't pvp. Clearly this is not for you.

 

Post like these are the reason why the game is going down the drain atm.

 

First, casual players complain about gear being too hard to get, so bioware made it easy to cater these people. The hardcore player, having obtained all the gears since the content was made easy, eventually quit the game, and the casual players who were complaining about gearing in the first place ended up quitting too because they have no one to compete against.

 

Stop expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. Real life doesn't work that way, game sure as hell don't.

 

you missed the point. i'm saying they grind the PvP gear to cover the fact they do not have skill and a good player with 0 PvP gear will beat the majority of the players with it. PvP gear is what makes bad players happy, good players do not need it and the good PvPers have quit this game because there is no challenge in beating the current generation of post wow MMOers

[Hizoka]

Yes lets change the entire pvp system because you cannot be arsed to farm a set of bm, pikc up the free recruit etc.

 

The only problem with expertise is if you havent got much of it. It actually does it's job, it stop pve rambos from thinking they can pwn people that pvp all the time and pvp is crap for doing pve with.

 

If you cannot see why it's in the game I don't know what to say. It's a stat specifically designed to improve your char in pvp and that's what it does. Only people that seem to have a problem with it are:-

 

People that seem to forget this game is an mmo where gear is what makes you char stronger/more efficient - er did u not notice the fact you were gearing your char from 1-50 constantly improving their damage output etc?

 

Noobs, they do not have expertise and they spent the 320k instead of taking the free recruit gear.

 

Lazy people - people who for whatever reason would rather spend their time qqing on the forums and trying to change the whole system because they are either terrible, or lazy.

 

Casuals - People that have kids/work alot/dont take gaming seriously/or just dont have time - in which case you should just accept that you are playing a time-sink mmo and you will never catch-up.

 

This is the game, sections of this community (as much as it is your right to complain) need to learn to play the game within the rules set by the game. All this "its not fair" crap is just tiresome, it is fair. Everyone had the chance to purchase the game at the same time and level their chars. When and how you use your time is entirely on you - not biowares fault, not the people you are envious of who are better geared (and better skilled) than you.

 

All of these issues that spring up on these boards - expertise, resolve, stuns, rateds too hard - are an indication you are inexperienced if you are qqing about them. They can all be solved simply by taking some time to learn the mechanics and gear your char - just like everyone else in the game that have what you think you should have with a minimnum of effort/click of fingers.

 

Stop the qq and gear your toon because I guarantee you while you are qqing - little johnny is gearing up his toon and learning the game.

the issue is the game is not about skill for most of the population its about gear.

No MMO pre wow put more of a focus on your gear then your ability to play, even in wow pre wrath it was more about your ability then your gear. You had to be 3-4 tiers above someone in TBC for it to be more about gear then skill where in this game half a set of WH will beat 90% of the BMs because gear matters that much more then skill for the vast majorty of the PvPers.

 

The good players of MMOs want skill to be the defining factor, the people who do not want skill to be a factor are the people who know without a doubt they cannot win if skill is a factor.

[Akatoshia]

the issue is the game is not about skill for most of the population its about gear.

No MMO pre wow put more of a focus on your gear then your ability to play, even in wow pre wrath it was more about your ability then your gear. You had to be 3-4 tiers above someone in TBC for it to be more about gear then skill where in this game half a set of WH will beat 90% of the BMs because gear matters that much more then skill for the vast majorty of the PvPers.

 

The good players of MMOs want skill to be the defining factor, the people who do not want skill to be a factor are the people who know without a doubt they cannot win if skill is a factor.

 

I would likewise argue that players who insist the game be balanced around skill have no intention of putting in hard work to see visible results in terms of effectiveness. Olympic athletes train hard for many years to reach the level of competition they are at. Many people who play MMOs enjoy this dynamic where they might not be able to enjoy it in real life. It's really a matter of opinion; I don't think it's fair to lables "good okayers" or bad players based on their preference of play style...

[Cymate]

Let the gear play it's role on a nice ramp, reward Valor levels with special new PVP abilities, and remove expertise: everybody is happy, or fine tune abilities. The end of The Grief.

[Kyuuu]

Expertise was what broke 50wz to being with ijust worse now people infact wasnt 1.3 supposed to make expertise only "reduce damage taken" the bonus damage and healing was supposed to be taking out.... as far as i can tell damage to players and healing bonus are still there.

 

 

Make it def reduction only was step in the right direction, but expertise is the problem people that 1300 **** the people that have much less, but then people with 1000 expertise still get *****.

[ArchangelLBC]

I don't think the peeps would get rolled like they do now simply because the Expertise gulf wouldn't exist. Right now there are two degrees of separation, Expertise and Stats. It's true that peeps would still need to farm for optimal stats for their build, but the transition would be more tolerable.

 

Except, as someone else mentioned, it's not the expertise gulf between recruit and WH that gets people crushed. It's the abyssmal stats on recruit gear.

 

Still waiting to hear about that dramatically different system of yours.