Expertise is a problem.

[ArchangelLBC]

You mean this isn't the game for you. Some games in this genre have done it right.

 

You're telling me absolutely none of the games you mentioned had gear play a significant part of performance? >.>

[Scritchy]

You're telling me absolutely none of the games you mentioned had gear play a significant part of performance? >.>

I'm telling you none of those games I mentioned had two gear grinds, so everybody was on fairly equal footing (if not completely equal - SWG) in terms of gear. I didn't mention games where the gear was normalized and completely removed from the PVP equation, since that isn't what Astarica was talking about.

[dvdlftn]

Personally, I have multiple 50's both Imp and Rep, and have ground partial sets of Black Hole gear and War Hero gear on multiple characters.. And Personally I would like to see the Expertise stat removed from game. PvP should be based on your skill and your ability to function as part of a team, not some piece of gear.

[Elkirin]

I would like warzones to happen. If that means adjusting expertise I am for it.

 

If it means giving everyone a set of ruby slippers and it makes warzones pop on aisa pac servers, I am for it.

 

 

Please concentrate on the fact that reducing pools is bad, people playing the game is good.

 

Gear grinds do attract some players and turn others off, good luck EA.

[kjkdollarbanny]

Today, there are many people who want Expertise removed from the game. Right now in SW:TOR's PvP it's not based on the player's skill or technique, no it's based on some stupid system WoW thought was an excellent idea. A real life situation is an Operative and a Tank Powertech engage in combat. The Tank Powertech has 1095 expertise, the operative has 1290. The operative vanishes uses his only 5 attacks that do damage and brings the Powertech's health to 40 or 30%. Then a teammate walks in to finish the job. and it's GG! The Powertech had no chance, not to mention the fact that Expertise can dominate the whole team in a warzone. It's not even player versus player, no it's expertise versus expertise. SWTOR just copied another one of WoW's ideas. GJ Bioware!

lol PT whin cus 2 guys killed him. Kill yourself.

[Rannox]

lol PT whin cus 2 guys killed him. Kill yourself.

 

Go to school maybe?

[kjkdollarbanny]

Today, there are many people who want Expertise removed from the game. Right now in SW:TOR's PvP it's not based on the player's skill or technique, no it's based on some stupid system WoW thought was an excellent idea. A real life situation is an Operative and a Tank Powertech engage in combat. The Tank Powertech has 1095 expertise, the operative has 1290. The operative vanishes uses his only 5 attacks that do damage and brings the Powertech's health to 40 or 30%. Then a teammate walks in to finish the job. and it's GG! The Powertech had no chance, not to mention the fact that Expertise can dominate the whole team in a warzone. It's not even player versus player, no it's expertise versus expertise. SWTOR just copied another one of WoW's ideas. GJ Bioware!

Today there are many people who dont want expertise removed from the game.

Ok, lets remove expertise. What will change? Nothing, cause pvp players will pawn ops and get full blackhole sets with augments. and noobsies like you will whine about imbalance, too much stuns, to fast gcds and other stuff.

Just learn this by heart: pvp is not for you. you not born for this. like not every guy can be good boxer, someone need to cook food and raise children.

your place is pve.

[dcgregorya]

Today, there are many people who want Expertise removed from the game. Right now in SW:TOR's PvP it's not based on the player's skill or technique, no it's based on some stupid system WoW thought was an excellent idea. A real life situation is an Operative and a Tank Powertech engage in combat. The Tank Powertech has 1095 expertise, the operative has 1290. The operative vanishes uses his only 5 attacks that do damage and brings the Powertech's health to 40 or 30%. Then a teammate walks in to finish the job. and it's GG! The Powertech had no chance, not to mention the fact that Expertise can dominate the whole team in a warzone. It's not even player versus player, no it's expertise versus expertise. SWTOR just copied another one of WoW's ideas. GJ Bioware!

 

Exactly what does allowing PVE gear into PVP do to make the game about "skill and technique"? You're confusing expertise with *GEAR* and yes gear plays too large of a role in PVP.

[Astarica]

Exactly what does allowing PVE gear into PVP do to make the game about "skill and technique"? You're confusing expertise with *GEAR* and yes gear plays too large of a role in PVP.

 

The gap between Campaign and whatever gear you might have when you just hit 50 is greater than the gap between Recruit gear and WH. If there's no Expertise people will still be bulldozed by guys with Campaign gear (Recruit gear is roughly equal to random level 50 blues if there's no Expertise).

 

People just don't get that as long as you've a game that depends on gear, there's going to be some stat (found on gear) that makes or breaks whether you're viable. If it's not Expertise it might be mainstat or endurance or surge or something else, but there's going to be some stat on the gear that makes you unable to compete against those guys who have it. Now one can argue we can do away with gear, and maybe just have people all fight with identically geared avatars, and that may not be a bad idea but such a radical idea is likely well outside of what can possibly happen.

[Aluvi]

I've always hated the idea that you need 1 set of gear for pve and another for pvp, with a specialized stat. Back in Vanilla wow you could go into battlegrounds with pve gear and rock people if you had GOOD pve gear.. now not the case.

 

The reason for expertise is simple though.. it's part of any MMOs business model. You notice that, In GW2 there is no gera advancement for pvp. This is because they don't want you to feel like you need to grind, because they don't charge a monthly subscription. It needs to take months of grinding in pvp to get good gear for a subscription based MMO like SWTOR or WoW to make any money. It's the classic "dangle a carrot in front of a donkey" scenario, where they dangle shiny gear in front of us, and we play for months and months to acquire it, to give us an edge over other players.

 

So, it just makes sense really, to have 2 sets of gear, and require people to grind EVEN MORE if they want both sets.

[Jayshames]

I honestly don't see why it's needed.

I think the main reason I role so many alts is because the 50 pvp is awful. Too many people have maxed/near maxed expertise at 50 PvP now, so fresh 50s going in with what, 950 or something from recruit just get smashed straight away off any class. Soon as your spotted for having recruit everyone goes for you and you get melted before you can even use any abilitys. It's such a joke, apparently you need to grind for a week to get full BM. Ok I can understand grinding to get good gear, but when im grinding (which no one likes doing) and at the same time having absoloutely no enjoyment from dying all the time within a matter of seconds it's just not fun.. expertise should only be added to Ranked Warzones.

 

QQ yeyeye whatever.. im expressing my opinion.

[Astarica]

I've always hated the idea that you need 1 set of gear for pve and another for pvp, with a specialized stat. Back in Vanilla wow you could go into battlegrounds with pve gear and rock people if you had GOOD pve gear.. now not the case.

 

The reason for expertise is simple though.. it's part of any MMOs business model. You notice that, In GW2 there is no gera advancement for pvp. This is because they don't want you to feel like you need to grind, because they don't charge a monthly subscription. It needs to take months of grinding in pvp to get good gear for a subscription based MMO like SWTOR or WoW to make any money. It's the classic "dangle a carrot in front of a donkey" scenario, where they dangle shiny gear in front of us, and we play for months and months to acquire it, to give us an edge over other players.

 

So, it just makes sense really, to have 2 sets of gear, and require people to grind EVEN MORE if they want both sets.

 

Back in WoW when there's only one set of gear, that one set of gear is much harder to get than the effort it'd take to get both set of gears in SWTOR. Remember that you needed to farm content for months and then hope the right stuff dropped, as opposed to SWTOR where you can be done with PvE in 3-4 clears, and heck you might not even need to clear any raid content if you just do the dailys for Black Hole commendations.

 

In EQ1 there's only one set of gear, and the raid gear made you pretty much invinicible too. But that one set of gear can take you an year to get, so it's not any less grind.

 

The issue here is that games by design are intended to keep you busy via grinding gear for some period of time. Whether you have one set or ten set of gear, the time the game maker plans to keep you busy isn't going to change because they want your money. There is this general fear that if gear is too easy to get people will just bored and quit, which I think is unjustified because if the gameplay is actually good, people should play even with no gear incentive. And if the gameplay sucks, people figure that out pretty quick no matter how many carrots you have.

[Retro_Chrome]

tis is the issue and why expertise or resiliance or valor or whatever game you are playing has expertise...the reason is that PVE heroes dont want players to come in and "lose there way to gear" and pvp players dont want someone to "easymode linedance" there way to good gear.

 

why should i as a pvper work my tail off through warzones leraning strategies and players weaknesses all the other classes just to have some newb who spends all his time in a dungeon/instance/whatever come in a face roll everyone with his enormous pve weapons...

 

at the same time why would i as a pve dude want some guy who spent his life ganking newbs in pvp walk in to end game content without suffering through entry level content.. the primary reason for expertise or special stats separating the two styles of play is the players...

 

the elitest types who have arguably worked very hard to get where they are and both sides feel the other side is too simple for them to acknowledge.

 

this is the reason why the stat exists and this is why there will always be a difference in gear... now imagine how people will feel if a person has an advantage because they progressed very far in a completely different game... and then came into this new game with a step ahead of everyone...(GW2)

 

learn to work with in the current game system and learn to play better... those 2 things will help make your Progression style MMO a easier and more likable experience...

 

if not then its time for you to move on to other games

Edited July 28, 2012 by Retro_Chrome

[Debaucher]

Simple fix.

 

1. Fix Class Balance, bring Pyrotechs and Operative Healers, down from their Cloud Bases. Bring Sage healers, DPS Scoundrels/Ops, Dps Comm/Mercs up from their sewers. Balance Maurader/Sent defensive cooldowns.

 

2. Implement X-server PVP, this fixes local Faction Imbalances.

 

3. Add Solo Ranked Warzones, X-server should allow to not place PUGs against premades ever.

 

4. Limit Normal Warzones to Battlemaster level gear only, War Hero etc would get stats reduced down.

 

5. Split the Daily/Weekly, 1 Daily/ 1 Weekly for Normal Warzones that only rewards WZ Comms, same for Ranked WZ that only rewards Ranked Comms. Don't remove trading comm types.

 

6. Profit. you have now improved balance, improved pvp progression and improved happy feelings.

 

People hit lvl 50, get Recruit Gear, go into normal Warzones against max Augmented BM, then they have a choice grind full BM and then jump to Ranked or grind full War Hero (or part) in Normal then jump across.

 

Thought frankly, Bioware will probably just use the Level Cap rise to hit the reset button. Lvl 55/60 free Recruit War Hero gear, then new 55/60 PVP Gear (1 or 2) to grind with new Comms.

 

1-6 makes a nice read.

 

However i think that they 'll just reset the game by expanding it as well. Wouldn't mind it, as long as we get some proper outdoor pvp, small roaming groups etc and colision. Please add that BW, maybe a solution to back peddaling.

[PakaOno]

This thread is proof that people will complain about anything and everything.

 

PvP gear is a lot easier to obtain that PvE gear. And everyone has the same access to obtain said gear. So why all the QQ?

 

If everyone has full WH then gear is not a factor and skill comes into play. I fail to understand how expertise is a problem. TS obviously never played a MMO where there was no PvP gear and players got farmed by the top guilds who had access to all of the best gear.

[Scritchy]

TS obviously never played a MMO where there was no PvP gear and players got farmed by the top guilds who had access to all of the best gear.

That is why gear being a factor at all in PVP is just stupid.

[Hizoka]

Not losing more than half your playerbase in 3 months (hi WAR!)? Not contracting to a handful of servers 7 months after release?

 

Both of those are pretty good definitions.

 

WoW lost over 70% of its initial subs in the first 3 months..... so by your standard its a massive failure.

[Hizoka]

Today there are many people who dont want expertise removed from the game.

Ok, lets remove expertise. What will change? Nothing, cause pvp players will pawn ops and get full blackhole sets with augments. and noobsies like you will whine about imbalance, too much stuns, to fast gcds and other stuff.

Just learn this by heart: pvp is not for you. you not born for this. like not every guy can be good boxer, someone need to cook food and raise children.

your place is pve.

 

see you show your 100% inability to think. If they used the bolster system that is currently in game they can adjust EVERYONE stats to be equal, thus making PvP about skill and not gear. However you do not seem to be able to understand that there is a system currently in game that can make all things equal outside of skill in PvP.

 

You are one of the people who thinks gear = skill rather then skill being something someone just has.

[Hizoka]

tis is the issue and why expertise or resiliance or valor or whatever game you are playing has expertise...the reason is that PVE heroes dont want players to come in and "lose there way to gear" and pvp players dont want someone to "easymode linedance" there way to good gear.

 

why should i as a pvper work my tail off through warzones leraning strategies and players weaknesses all the other classes just to have some newb who spends all his time in a dungeon/instance/whatever come in a face roll everyone with his enormous pve weapons...

 

at the same time why would i as a pve dude want some guy who spent his life ganking newbs in pvp walk in to end game content without suffering through entry level content.. the primary reason for expertise or special stats separating the two styles of play is the players...

 

the elitest types who have arguably worked very hard to get where they are and both sides feel the other side is too simple for them to acknowledge.

 

this is the reason why the stat exists and this is why there will always be a difference in gear... now imagine how people will feel if a person has an advantage because they progressed very far in a completely different game... and then came into this new game with a step ahead of everyone...(GW2)

 

learn to work with in the current game system and learn to play better... those 2 things will help make your Progression style MMO a easier and more likable experience...

 

if not then its time for you to move on to other games

 

The biggest difference is right now, you do not have to EVER win in PvP to get every single piece of PvP gear, hell you do not even have to be any good you just stand at an objective and get handed loot. In PvE you HAVE to win to get gear, you cannot get anything if you just sit there losing.

 

On top of that with the current player base a true skilled player with 0 expertise can roflstomp even warheros with easy (i know i do it all the time in my campaign gear for S&Gs). PvP is no challenge to good players. The real reason so many people are behind expertise is because without it they know they cannot stand a chance against the skilled players out there.

 

All the people who QQ about world PvP would never win in organized PvP because they simply aren't good, they need that gear crutch that they are willing to grind out just to make up for their lack of skill.

 

The number 1 problem with the MMO genre is because of WoW removing skill as a defining factor in anything is people do not want to get good, they simply want to log in and be handed top end loot for basically doing nothing. If skill was a requirement to get everything (both PvE and PvP) completed then the skill level of the playerbase would go up the community would end up being better because skill would matter and the kittle kids who think gear - skill would go back to playing halo and screaming on x-box live. The drawback is EA makes less omney of the short term but keeps a stable playerbase for the long term.

 

For example look at WoW during The Burning Crusade they jumped from just under 3 million subs to over 11 million in an 18 month time frame, and that is when more then ever skill is what determined what level of content you were able to complete. Then Wrath hit and in over 2 yeahs they grew barely 1 million subs. Now they are below 8 million subs. Look at the trend challenge = growth making everything so simple a kitten can compete it = no growth and loss.

 

It doesn't matter how many subs their are you tell a stock holder you lost over 30% of your subs and they are gonna flip. Instead of doing what wow is doing now they need to look back and do what made wow the most played P2P MMO in history, the sad thing is no-one looks back and copies what was great, they copy the trash and hope something good comes out, like pretending expertise was a good idea.

[Retro_Chrome]

The biggest difference is right now, you do not have to EVER win in PvP to get every single piece of PvP gear, hell you do not even have to be any good you just stand at an objective and get handed loot. In PvE you HAVE to win to get gear, you cannot get anything if you just sit there losing.

 

 

this is exactly the point i was making. but you turn around and say expertise is what makes bad players good...this is just not true...i will contend a fully geared campaign/bh guy can roflstomp someone in recruit gear... there is no way your skill will over whelm an equally skilled player in warhero gear...

 

in the same sense... if that same skilled player in warhero gear tried to get into a top end raid they will be laughed at...

 

my post was to define why there is expertise and it is because of that elitest attitude towards pvp from pvers and the reverse that we have expertise to begin with ...

 

if you are truly good at what you do then would actually learn to play within the system instead of trying to complain about it ... this is a PROGRESSION BASED MMO...this is how it is done there will never change until everyone on both sides of the coin loosen the hell up and play the game for the content and not the gear

 

pvp for the hell of it because you like the challenge... pve the NM modes because they are fun not because of some frickin carrot... make all gear equal and gear up through warzones "easymode" and then go into your end game raids. change the way gear is attained in raids and get gear comms for every boss including story modes...make it easy to get gear and all gear equal and then your skill will be at the forefront...but that changes the game completely and it stops becoming progression based and becomes something else ...

 

but a truly good player will grind out whatever it is he or she needs to grind out to perfect there gear...part of being a good player in these types of games is learning what gear to get/how to min max and then learning everything about your boss/opposing team and objectives.

 

when you sign up for progression based MMO this is what you should expect.

[mortatoe]

 

 

Wasn't intending to insult anyone. PvErs are what they are. Guess I could have just called them "PvErs" instead of carebears. Whatever.

PvP is more "carebear" than PvE in SWTOR. I could lose 6 matches. Get my daily. Make some real progression towards better gear and get some credits.

A similar attempt at PvE - multiple wipes with no win in a raid would result in a loss of credits due to repairs and no gear progression.

Edited July 29, 2012 by mortatoe

[babykahna]

see you show your 100% inability to think. If they used the bolster system that is currently in game they can adjust EVERYONE stats to be equal, thus making PvP about skill and not gear. However you do not seem to be able to understand that there is a system currently in game that can make all things equal outside of skill in PvP.

 

You are one of the people who thinks gear = skill rather then skill being something someone just has.

 

while i would love pvp to be about skill rather than GEAR, GLITCHES and UNBALANCED CLASSES, i think we both know that isnt happening. Everything from the /stuck bug to stacking PTs and ensuring that plenty of other class specs are absolutely unviable....pvp is more than just a gear problem. However lets say somehow everything works and it becomes about skill. What then is the reward for being more skilled than another? This is after all a theme-park type game not a sandbox. The point of the game is to reward you for achieveing a certain objective hence the mouse-cheese comparisons. So what would the rewards be then for being skilled?

[Daiyukie]

The number 1 problem with the MMO genre is because of WoW removing skill as a defining factor in anything is people do not want to get good, they simply want to log in and be handed top end loot for basically doing nothing. If skill was a requirement to get everything (both PvE and PvP) completed then the skill level of the playerbase would go up the community would end up being better because skill would matter and the kittle kids who think gear - skill would go back to playing halo and screaming on x-box live.

 

I... what? Are you saying Halo is gear-based? o.0 'Cause if the people who believe gear = skill are playing Halo and yelling at their TV, why are they playing Halo - a game where only your skill and coordination matter?

[Daikeru]

see you show your 100% inability to think. If they used the bolster system that is currently in game they can adjust EVERYONE stats to be equal, thus making PvP about skill and not gear. However you do not seem to be able to understand that there is a system currently in game that can make all things equal outside of skill in PvP.

 

You are one of the people who thinks gear = skill rather then skill being something someone just has.

 

The Bolster System doesn't actually do that ...

[DarthOvertone]

And my point is that the alternative gear grind is not significantly different from the current gear grind we have right now.

 

Actually, it would be dramatically different.