Ops/sco dps specs

[chadicus]

Operative/Scoundrel DPS specs are abysmal. Absolutely gimped and they do nothing better than any other class does except die. Not wanted for RWZs OR HMs the state these classes are in is pathetic. No gap closer, no pull, no utility... It is inexcusable to leave a class in this state for this long. BW you need to do some hotfix BUFFS to these two classes. Considering how ridiculous mara/sent and powertech/vanguards are you owe ops/sco some serious buffs.

[Dmasterr]

Operative/Scoundrel DPS specs are abysmal. Absolutely gimped and they do nothing better than any other class does except die. Not wanted for RWZs OR HMs the state these classes are in is pathetic. No gap closer, no pull, no utility... It is inexcusable to leave a class in this state for this long. BW you need to do some hotfix BUFFS to these two classes. Considering how ridiculous mara/sent and powertech/vanguards are you owe ops/sco some serious buffs.

 

Hello.

 

Just thought i should drop by and say hi. Carry on.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Valsdad]

Nah man, DPS Scoundrels don't need gap closers because they can spend all their energy casting two 2.5 second heals. - Bioware

[CarverX]

Agreed. My operative is a cool looking guy but other than fooling around sneaking up behind people he's is pretty worthless in serious situations. I have a really cool gun though, too bad thanks to "Tactical Advantage" I don't get to use it enough. I think this class needs an overhaul and TA should be abandoned completely. The damage output is kind of laughable. Enough of being like the pvp class clown already.

[Kalolo]

I heard we have to L2P, and be better.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=505526&page=18

[MelliMelon]

My rated group is one of (if not the very) best on the server, and our scoundrel DPS (DF scrapper hybrid) regularly tops the charts (even playing against the other top team). Just because the learning curve is steep doesn't mean they suck.

[chadicus]

My rated group is one of (if not the very) best on the server, and our scoundrel DPS (DF scrapper hybrid) regularly tops the charts (even playing against the other top team). Just because the learning curve is steep doesn't mean they suck.

 

So he spreads DOTs around to everyone. Great. If that player were on a PT or a Force using class of some kind he would be even better.

[Dissentus]

Nah man, DPS Scoundrels don't need gap closers because they can spend all their energy casting two 2.5 second heals. - Bioware

 

I laughed, because that's probably exactly what they are thinking.

[Akatoshia]

I have 3 pieces of augmented WH with the rest being un-augmented BM, and I consistently pump out 350k+ per WZ. The great thing about being a concealment OP is being able to pick your fights - use it to your advantage.

[blue_talon]

Hi,

 

Ops concealment dps spec is awesome. I have a guidlie who runs that. Between us we can melt any target, be it tank or otherwise in about 2-3 GCDs. If you want a class that does big numbers then go a Pyro PT or Mara at the end of a macth. If you want a surgical scapel to cut your opponenets heart out then call for an Op.

 

Sincerely,

A very impressed Jugg.

Edited July 18, 2012 by blue_talon

[Daiyukie]

Anyone saying "I post this many damage points in a WZ consistently" is missing the point. If I Vital Shotted 8 players all game long, I'd get pretty good damage numbers too because I can just run away and stealth while they tick and start over.

 

I didn't contribute in the slightest, however, despite the scoreboard numbers appearing high. A DPS class being good depends on how it feels to kill an enemy; how fast they go down, how much effort it took you vs their effort, how many consumables you had to use, etc.

 

Scoundrel and Operative DPS feels bad because as soon as there's one good heal more than us (a medpack where we have none, a heal or two thrown our target's way) we have no way to outlast and a very long cooldown Vanish to escape. Can't outlast, can't escape, can't win. The problem is that this happens too often and even let's say in a 1v1 on an opener in CW... A pure DPS spec isn't as good 1v1 as a hybrid that can self-heal and do respectable damage, similar to how tank spec Shadow/Assassin is just better 1v1 than the pure DPS spec without the durability.

[MelliMelon]

Anyone saying "I post this many damage points in a WZ consistently" is missing the point. If I Vital Shotted 8 players all game long, I'd get pretty good damage numbers too because I can just run away and stealth while they tick and start over.

 

As a healer, I fundamentally disagree. Often, in rated warzones, the hardest times are NOT when I'm being focused (due to tanks and CDs, this is manageable) but when there is such an utter wealth of damage that I can't heal the DPS. Once they fall, there's no way I'll survive, and there's nothing stopping enemy DPS from destroying. Numbers don't excuse bad playing, but you can't say "numbers don't matter".

[Daiyukie]

As a healer, I fundamentally disagree. Often, in rated warzones, the hardest times are NOT when I'm being focused (due to tanks and CDs, this is manageable) but when there is such an utter wealth of damage that I can't heal the DPS. Once they fall, there's no way I'll survive, and there's nothing stopping enemy DPS from destroying. Numbers don't excuse bad playing, but you can't say "numbers don't matter".

 

And I disagree with that. There's not enough strong AoE unless all 7 of the other players are all trying to disarm the same bomb that there's going to be that much damage. With two healers and spread out damage, with personal defensive cooldowns and general "keeping yourself alive" play, there has to be focus fire for someone to die, or your healing is the problem.

[blue_talon]

Anyone saying "I post this many damage points in a WZ consistently" is missing the point. If I Vital Shotted 8 players all game long, I'd get pretty good damage numbers too because I can just run away and stealth while they tick and start over.

 

I didn't contribute in the slightest, however, despite the scoreboard numbers appearing high. A DPS class being good depends on how it feels to kill an enemy; how fast they go down, how much effort it took you vs their effort, how many consumables you had to use, etc.

 

Scoundrel and Operative DPS feels bad because as soon as there's one good heal more than us (a medpack where we have none, a heal or two thrown our target's way) we have no way to outlast and a very long cooldown Vanish to escape. Can't outlast, can't escape, can't win. The problem is that this happens too often and even let's say in a 1v1 on an opener in CW... A pure DPS spec isn't as good 1v1 as a hybrid that can self-heal and do respectable damage, similar to how tank spec Shadow/Assassin is just better 1v1 than the pure DPS spec without the durability.

 

When 1v1 is the norm in this game I will agree with you. However, this is 8v8. You dont bring a glass cannon to a fight and expect it to tank and survive a long fight. You bring said glass cannon to kill folks. While a concealment op cant survive a loing fight solo, with a tank (hybrid or pure) or a healer (hybrid or pure) he can last long enough to melt a target. A sin tank and op conceal combo is lethal for stealth hits, a jugg tank/dps plus a conceal op is lethal for 2 v 2.

You guys need to get it through your head - this is not 1v1. You are not expected to take on a Hybrid sorc solo or a tanksin or a tank+healer combo. An conceal op has a very similar role as a decption sin - hit hard and fast then run like buggery if this goes wrong, find a target that has his attention elsewhere and kill him. A combo that works for us is to have one or two engaget he defendets at a node - op stays in stealth until the defenders are engaged - co-ordinate a ravage or similar on one target co-insiding with the op opening and booyaa dead defender - now its 2 v 1 and you should still have CC available.

Oh and good ops/sco can win 1v1 - its just not the norm.

[Daiyukie]

When 1v1 is the norm in this game I will agree with you. However, this is 8v8. You dont bring a glass cannon to a fight and expect it to tank and survive a long fight. You bring said glass cannon to kill folks. While a concealment op cant survive a loing fight solo, with a tank (hybrid or pure) or a healer (hybrid or pure) he can last long enough to melt a target. A sin tank and op conceal combo is lethal for stealth hits, a jugg tank/dps plus a conceal op is lethal for 2 v 2.

You guys need to get it through your head - this is not 1v1. You are not expected to take on a Hybrid sorc solo or a tanksin or a tank+healer combo. An conceal op has a very similar role as a decption sin - hit hard and fast then run like buggery if this goes wrong, find a target that has his attention elsewhere and kill him. A combo that works for us is to have one or two engaget he defendets at a node - op stays in stealth until the defenders are engaged - co-ordinate a ravage or similar on one target co-insiding with the op opening and booyaa dead defender - now its 2 v 1 and you should still have CC available.

Oh and good ops/sco can win 1v1 - its just not the norm.

 

The bigger battles can easily be broken up into smaller separate engagements that are simply less clear because of the chaos. Let's say my healer is mostly focusing on me (DPS Scoundrel) and there's a tank Guarding him but assisting on my kill, which is their healer. If a Marauder leaps in to protect his healer and focuses on me while the Powertech tank helps his healer survive, there's no way I'll be able to put out enough DPS over the course of that fight to do anything meaningful. That's a small 3v3 and it's already too much of a group fight to really be useful because, like I said, throw some heals and my opener was erased so now I have my crap sustained damage to try and rely on.

 

It's just gimp.

 

-Edit- Besides, I was throwing in the 1v1 as best case scenario for the class and it's still not exactly powerful as pure DPS; many classes can just eat the burst and then you can't outlast anyone.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Daiyukie

[blue_talon]

The bigger battles can easily be broken up into smaller separate engagements that are simply less clear because of the chaos. Let's say my healer is mostly focusing on me (DPS Scoundrel) and there's a tank Guarding him but assisting on my kill, which is their healer. If a Marauder leaps in to protect his healer and focuses on me while the Powertech tank helps his healer survive, there's no way I'll be able to put out enough DPS over the course of that fight to do anything meaningful. That's a small 3v3 and it's already too much of a group fight to really be useful because, like I said, throw some heals and my opener was erased so now I have my crap sustained damage to try and rely on.

 

It's just gimp.

 

-Edit- Besides, I was throwing in the 1v1 as best case scenario for the class and it's still not exactly powerful as pure DPS; many classes can just eat the burst and then you can't outlast anyone.

 

I disagree - there is or was a Scoundral duo on my server who ran WZs pretty constantly. Between the they could melt any target, guard or no guard before a healer could save them unless they went for a pure tank jugg ot PT wo popped all CDs. Im not saying your sustained dps is ZOMG amazing but seriously a spd op is not bad.

 

Your exmaple of a 3 v 3, heals/tank/dps is a recipe for a stalemate. Heals and tanks run together so generally you will have to contend with that and one dps and tank is not enough dps regardless of the class to take down a guarded healer. The other side of the coin is that your tank/heals combo engages their tank/heals combo, their dps and tank attacks your healer. Its a stalemeate now. There is not enough dps form thei tank and dps to break your guarded healer/tank combo. So you peel off and approach their tank from behind and target him - leave their healer he is secondary for now. Talk to your team - co-ordinate a CC on healer then burn the tank. If the CC breaks have your tank interupt/disrupt the healer. With luck the tank is dead or close to it and you can control the fight now. it may still be stalemate but this may cause them to call for help thereby helping the rest of your team...... so its a winning play....

[Daiyukie]

I disagree - there is or was a Scoundral duo on my server who ran WZs pretty constantly. Between the they could melt any target, guard or no guard before a healer could save them unless they went for a pure tank jugg ot PT wo popped all CDs. Im not saying your sustained dps is ZOMG amazing but seriously a spd op is not bad.

 

Your exmaple of a 3 v 3, heals/tank/dps is a recipe for a stalemate. Heals and tanks run together so generally you will have to contend with that and one dps and tank is not enough dps regardless of the class to take down a guarded healer. The other side of the coin is that your tank/heals combo engages their tank/heals combo, their dps and tank attacks your healer. Its a stalemeate now. There is not enough dps form thei tank and dps to break your guarded healer/tank combo. So you peel off and approach their tank from behind and target him - leave their healer he is secondary for now. Talk to your team - co-ordinate a CC on healer then burn the tank. If the CC breaks have your tank interupt/disrupt the healer. With luck the tank is dead or close to it and you can control the fight now. it may still be stalemate but this may cause them to call for help thereby helping the rest of your team...... so its a winning play....

 

But in such a group situation (i.e. any objective) any other class is better because it's a protracted fight.

 

And your first example is a 2v1, obviously doubling the Scoundrel firepower is awesome against one target. Double Vanguard is even better.

[HaLeX]

I am a former concealment OP now a healing spec. Op dps is fun but not effective. The whole point is to kill the other class like healer or sniper fast. I was able to do that maybe half the time, but other times no, and many of these may have been undergeared people. As a healer through hundreds of matches I have yet to see a DPS OP take me out. (many have tried). They blow their load on the initial attack then they have 0 staying power, I can beat them just with 2 attack skills. I have had PT Pyro and good maras take me down fast but never a ops or sniper or merc, they simply don't have the burst or the armor. In a one vs one i think my healer can beat my dps ops.

[Daiyukie]

I am a former concealment OP now a healing spec. Op dps is fun but not effective. The whole point is to kill the other class like healer or sniper fast. I was able to do that maybe half the time, but other times no, and many of these may have been undergeared people. As a healer through hundreds of matches I have yet to see a DPS OP take me out. (many have tried). They blow their load on the initial attack then they have 0 staying power, I can beat them just with 2 attack skills. I have had PT Pyro and good maras take me down fast but never a ops or sniper or merc, they simply don't have the burst or the armor. In a one vs one i think my healer can beat my dps ops.

 

Yep, 22/12/7 is my spec of choice at the moment. I can add burst to team fights, act primarily as healer and be ridiculously hard to kill, but I have all the DPS skills a Scrapper does while sacrificing a few things that aren't much of a bother.

 

-Edit- Specific distribution

Edited July 18, 2012 by Daiyukie

[TiTaNsFaN]

Operatives and Scoundrels should not DPS. They are a healer-only viable class in competitive (lolswtorpvp) warzones.

[HaLeX]

I tried a pure Hybrid for one day and I found myself confused on what my focus should be dps or heals. Heals are fine but i was missing the top skill which is the aoe heal, surgical probe if i recall that and DPS wasnt outstanding so IDK. I would give it another try if you think its viable. I guess it just comes down to heal first , everything is in order DPS them down. My biggest issue would be to be effective I would need the top skill on heals plus laceration, if I can have those 2 Id be golden.

[Akatoshia]

Anyone saying "I post this many damage points in a WZ consistently" is missing the point. If I Vital Shotted 8 players all game long, I'd get pretty good damage numbers too because I can just run away and stealth while they tick and start over.

 

The last time I checked, that really wasn't a viable way of putting out the numbers I was talking about... but I will agree with you, those numbers only prove that Ops can do AS much DPS (damage per second) compared to other DPS classes... But looking at the scoreboards, you don't see PTs putting out 600k damage with 5 kills. It doesn't work that way.

 

 

Scoundrel and Operative DPS feels bad because as soon as there's one good heal more than us (a medpack where we have none, a heal or two thrown our target's way) we have no way to outlast and a very long cooldown Vanish to escape. Can't outlast, can't escape, can't win. The problem is that this happens too often and even let's say in a 1v1 on an opener in CW... A pure DPS spec isn't as good 1v1 as a hybrid that can self-heal and do respectable damage, similar to how tank spec Shadow/Assassin is just better 1v1 than the pure DPS spec without the durability.

 

No, you see, you don't have to vanish OR heal to win. You can kill them before they kill you. I know it might be a hard concept to grasp, but trust me I've done it. Once you get some gear, Ops own 1v1.

 

And for the CW example, I think that a pure damage spec would be much more effective. In that situation, a faster more concentrated kill would be beneficial compared to a longer drawn-out fight because you can better deal with reinforcements, or cap before they arrive!

[vimm]

As someone who plays concealment operative as a main, I am very happy with where it's at. I love how underrated it is, though I assume people are pretening it's weak for sympathy!

[Koendewit]

My rated group is one of (if not the very) best on the server, and our scoundrel DPS (DF scrapper hybrid) regularly tops the charts (even playing against the other top team). Just because the learning curve is steep doesn't mean they suck.

 

I play a dps scoundrel as well, and I am allways shocked about people telling me how much I suck because i play a scrapper and that I'm not wanted. I laugh in their face every time when I am mostly in the top3 charts in pvp. Its not the easiest class to play, but if you are skilled with it, you are a menace to your opponent.

[Daiyukie]

The last time I checked, that really wasn't a viable way of putting out the numbers I was talking about... but I will agree with you, those numbers only prove that Ops can do AS much DPS (damage per second) compared to other DPS classes... But looking at the scoreboards, you don't see PTs putting out 600k damage with 5 kills. It doesn't work that way.

 

It's perfectly viable as far as getting the numbers goes, just not effective at all towards a win. Never dying and keeping up DoTs will net you the highest numbers if they aren't dropping like flies on the other team, in which point you can probably do whatever you want and win anyway...

 

No, you see, you don't have to vanish OR heal to win. You can kill them before they kill you. I know it might be a hard concept to grasp, but trust me I've done it. Once you get some gear, Ops own 1v1.

 

You're talking to a War Hero geared Scoundrel, get over yourself. Gear gap with any class will allow you to kill people. I've hunted a Sniper all game during a Huttball and finished every fight with that Sniper at above 80% as DPS spec. Against EQUAL GEAR, vs someone who understands what my class can do and how to use theirs, there's no way I'm going to win 1v1 as a DPS spec because there's zero survivability. Against a Merc, sure, but vs a class that's not underpowered, not really, though it's Juggernauts and Marauders that give the most trouble. As hybrid, it's far easier.

 

And for the CW example, I think that a pure damage spec would be much more effective. In that situation, a faster more concentrated kill would be beneficial compared to a longer drawn-out fight because you can better deal with reinforcements, or cap before they arrive!

 

The problem is that no kill happens because they eat your burst fairly easily unless you outgear them, which wasn't the point of my argument. If you outgear them and lose, you deserved that death. Again, against a Merc or a lone squishy Sorc, sure go kill them, but that'd just be bad play by the other team anyway...